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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 02:20
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BHG time.  I need to know how hard it is to remove one of these, ie. what needs removing besides the intercooler, belts, timing cover, valve cover, head, etc. Anyone that wants to lend a hand with this is more than welcome too. 
How involved is it and how long would it take to do?
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Location:
NSW, Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 02:22
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what the hell man?
i thought you just got your engine rebuilt and shit
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 02:36
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you'll find it a hell of lot easier if you take the
motor out 
too much shit bolted on or around it to get the head
off easliy in the car, and then youv'e gotta get
the bastard back on
I can sympathize with you, I just f*cked my gearbox
so its motor out and replace time
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 04:09
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I've only got basic tools, no engine crane or any of that shit... I guess it's easier with two people doing it?
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 04:39
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depends on how quick you want it done
hoists are a marvelous thing 
so its definately blown?
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 04:43
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Assuming you can get your top timing cover off whilst the engine is in the car you are going to need:
-Torque Wrench
-The recorded original lengths of your head studs from when you bought them OR new head studs.
-Precision straight edge (read: expensive metal ruler)
-Feeler gauges
If your engine was on an engine stand I would say that the job would take an hour max so long as the head isn't warped or anything stupid like that, however, while its in the car it could be anything from 1 - 10 hours.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 05:03
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Troy, that's what I've been told from a diagnosis that was done on it at a radiator place today.
Toobs, you have an engine crane? I don't even have a torque wrench. If I could get some help on it, I can pay in beers if need be (read: case). 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 05:20
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if your planning on taking it off then definintely new head bolts as they stretch a bit and become brittle, hence cant be re-used.
Also the head bolts have a 12mm star head design, similar to an allen key bolt, but with 12 points instead.
I managed to get my intake manifold off my head while its still in the car to replace the TVIS so it is possible to remove everything, but i recommend taking the head, intake and exhaust manifold off in one hit...and replacing it as such if your not gonna lift the whole motor out
Unfortunately I dont have the torque specs for the head on me atm, but im sure a search or someone here has them...
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 05:25
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Even ARP head studs?  It's only been on the road for 4 months...
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 05:31
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cant say for sure...im just relaying what I have heard...after you have run the head in and go through the re-torque procedure anytime after that you should replace them...
IMHO if i was going to all this trouble I would just replace them for peace of mind....saves havin to do all this shit again if they end up snapping
Let me know if you need any further help, unfortunately the only things i can really add is a half decent socket set and a bit of knowledge, i dont have a hoist or torque wrench either....
i would reccomend that you start searching for those star sockets i mentioned now (12mm for the head bolts) ...and ones that can take the strain or torquing a head are hard to find (dont get market jobs)
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 05:33
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sorry to hear that champ
3sgte's seem to spend more time
out of cars
good luck
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 05:57
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I just spoke to Troy at JB here in Granville and he said that the ARP studs should be fine to use again. Who sells the star sockets?
Jeff, give me a buzz on my mobile (0412 969 070) if you wanna help us out. This guy at JB can do a head skim (if needed) for $100.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 06:20
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The ARP studs are not tourque to yeild, however they most likely would make it more difficult to remove the head while the engine is in the car as you have to be able to lift the engine straight away from the blobk by the height of the head itself.
The nuts on the ARP studs are romal external 12 point type nuts so you just need a good quality socket of the correct size, they're not metric as far as I know.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 06:31
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To my knowledge I don't think the head studs have been re-torqued... could this in itself lead to overheating? 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 06:54
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you'll soon see if it was the gasket (needing re-torqueing) - i take it that you've got oil in the water? or bubbles/gas?
ouch.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Tue, 21 December 2004 10:11
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Bubbles in the coolant, not so much oil in the water, or even steam out of the exhaust. None of the attributive symptoms you'd expect from a BHG, just bubbles out of the radiator. And an overheating engine. The car drives perfectly, just like anyone's car to feel the drive.
It's just strange. If there's a leak there, it must be minute.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Wed, 22 December 2004 00:42
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The ARP studs and more importantly metal head gaskets don't need to be retorqued.
What test did the radiator shop do? You really should get a coolant hydrocarbon test done, this will show if there is any combustion gasses in the coolant.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Wed, 22 December 2004 01:17
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Poor bastard.
If you are going to replace the HG whilst the motor is still in the car you better start learning swear words in different languages. If you cant get to those 2 support brackets that mount to the back of the block and under your plenum it will be impossible to remove the head.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Wed, 22 December 2004 03:05
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The ARP studs need to be measured before use and then each time they are re-used. If they stretch more than a few thou (actual specs come with the studs / bolts) then they shouldn't be re-used and should be tossed.
There is also some special lubricant that comes with the bolts which should be used when installing / reinstalling them.
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Location:
Parramatta
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Thu, 23 December 2004 02:36
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Andrew are you still having problems with the beast, i though this was done a while ago now?
Hope all goes well with the gasket. Its not that hard to do just losts of parts to remove. It is alot easier to work with out of the car, but again good luck.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Thu, 23 December 2004 14:39
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Thanks for all the info here guys, much appreciated.
Well my beast has taken a turn for the worst... after looking at the spark plugs and finding not a thing wrong with them (ie. normal burn pattern, no oil fouling, no steam-cleaning...) and testing the thermostat, reassembling the whole lot again, the radiator coolant (when the car's running on cold idle) is like dropping an ice cube into a glass of soft drink. Very bubbly and effervescent. If the head gasket ain't shagged, and I've been told by some people that 3S-GTE's don't usually do head gaskets that easily (but MR.2 is testament that it can happen), then they say it's something to do with the block or head warpage.
Puffy, I tried getting to those damned bolts, but whatever room you have in a Celica GT-Four, consider yourself lucky that the installation is nowhere near as tight-fitting as a drop-in on a RAV4. The throttle body runners are about half-inch away from the firewall, and I even had to get a replacement clutch master cylinder that was short enough in order to get it to fit onto the firewall without hitting the (rather sizeable) throttle body. Even the bloody radiator is a right bitch to take out without having to drop the entire front bar abd grille guard I have on there (Toobs knows about this).
Brad, I never had the head gasket replaced. Initially it was ruled out as a cause of the initial overheating problem I had after the thermostat was replaced and a heatshield was added. The temps were fine until a few weeks ago when we pulled apart the wiring loom and something made the secondary thermo fan go open-circuit. After this, I noticed the temps rise once again, and now here we are.
BTW Toobs (or anyone), how much is a set of 10 ARP head studs (or a head stud kit)?
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Location:
On your mum!
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Thu, 23 December 2004 22:24
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sorry to hear about your dramas Andrew. THe last time that I priced ARP head studs for the 3S they were around $275.
MR DOHC (I think) has claimed that he can get good prices for them before so give him a try?
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Thu, 23 December 2004 23:13
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I personally would:
-Dump all the coolant again and fill with radiator flush.
-Go for a 30 minute drive with the heater on and windows down.
-Next drain the flush and swap for straight demineralised water (after allowing to cool).
-Go for another 30 minute drive with the heater on and windows down.
-Drain the demineralised water and swap for a 50/50 mix of Toyota red (after allowing to cool).
-Fill your overflow bottle with straight toyota red.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Fri, 24 December 2004 12:34
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Thanks for that info Jason.
Toobs, I can barely take it for a 30 minute drive as it is now without it overheating (sometimes it can get beyond 212°F (100°C), but I usually shut it off before then). That's WITH the heater on and windows down, which is what I've had to do for the last two weeks since the old thermo fan failed on me.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Fri, 24 December 2004 12:44
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Unlucky dude after all the work u done rebuilding it hope its somethin that can be fixed without shit loads of hassles. gl gettin it all fixed
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Fri, 24 December 2004 12:46
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Removing the engine (and gearbox) from the engine bay in itself is one giant hassle. Considering it's such a snug fit.
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Location:
On your mum!
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Sat, 25 December 2004 02:14
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No matter what you do to fix it - check the direction of the thermo. I have seen on too many occasions where the thermo is working the wrong way around.
If the thermo is mounted on the inside of the radiator then you also need to take the fan off and turn it over so that is too works in the correct direction.
It does sound as though you have blown a head gasket (or screwed the head) by the bubbles in the system. It is most likely (as has already been pointed out) combustion gasses leaking to the water that push the water out of the radiator overflow.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help needed - 3S-GTE head gasket
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Sun, 02 January 2005 05:26
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Thanks Jason. I'm trying to contact davedave to get him to help us take out the engine (or lift enough of it out of the engine bay to remove the head without putting it on an engine stand). Is this do-able? I need to find out if there's going to be a place that will do a head skim or whatever is needed (dependent on the apparent cause and affected area once we know) that will be open from tomorrow or Tuesday.
It's either this or leave it in the hands of BEL to do for a rather hefty fee. We just can't separate the head from the block without first removing the block off the engine mounts. It's simply not possible.
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