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Location:
Canberra ACT
Registered:
August 2003
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 WTB Supra
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Mon, 11 August 2003 05:35
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Hey, i'm intrested in the 3rd gen supra's, i am living in darwin at the moment but moving down to canberra later this year, so if anyone has a supra thats looking to sell around then just let me know. Looking more for a targa top, don't really mind what colour, black is always good though  , auto or manual (perfer manual), turbo or non-turbo (perfer turbo), doesn't matter as i will just need a car as soon as i get down there, can be from NSW or ACT area i'll be able to have a look at both when i am down there. Nothing more than $9,000, i will have cash. any advice or suggestions would be welcome, thanks.
Layoric.
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Mon, 11 August 2003 05:58
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Just make sure you get a head gasket check (that is, check for exhaust contamination in the cooling system)! But best to get a full engine inspection. Go for one that's had a recent head gasket work, or best an aftermarket metal head gasket, it's an even better option than going for that hasn't had repairs, as the blown head gasket is virtually inevitable.
Obviously the turbo models are generally worth a decent amount more than the n/a's. If it helps as reference point, i can get a good one imported, albeit 88, for 7, but can get a really nice import for 9k, and also if you're willing to wait, a nice Australian delivered turbo. There was a pretty good forum for information that is currently down, but will hopefully be back again soon, at www.supraforums.com. Check on the net in your state
www.autotrader.com.au
www.carpoint.com.au
www.carsales.com.au
www.motorpoint.com.au
www.fowles.com.au (if you're willing to consider auctions, which is as you probably know much riskier than private sale).
And even if you're willing to consider a riskier auction, you could find out where you're local department of justice asset confiscation office, to find out where they auction repossesed and stolen cars, as although it's generally a last option, you do see some amazing deals.
I would try and source some importers in the Sydney area, preferably a trusted private importer, as that's who i'll be buying from, but i know none in the NSW/ACT area.
All the best with your search, Esselte.
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Location:
Canberra ACT
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Mon, 11 August 2003 11:30
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Thanks for that man, much appreciated. Well, i'm basically looking for one before i go down there, so i want to have one before the year is out, will be in NSW/ACT in September for a visit where i'll have a look around then as well, i'll have close to $9,000 then, so got plenty of time to look around and about a 3 month purchasing period, so i'll see how it goes, but will take your advise and look at some of the importers and that when i am down there, ta.
Layoric.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Tue, 12 August 2003 00:10
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" as the blown head gasket is virtually inevitable. "
incorrect.
blowing the head gasket is avoidable if you get the head re-torqued to about 70ft pound. a new head gasket and aftermarket head bolts would also help.
turbos are more prone to BHG's than n/a obviously.
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Tue, 12 August 2003 09:42
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There was a whole technical debate on the topic on supraforums.com, and numerous people (about 10, at least), posted in saying they had the head gasket re-torqued and still blew heaps of head gaskets. A guy i knew here who is a mechanic in a performance workshop blew 4 headgaskets running on that torque. It reduces the chances, and i'm not saying it's stricly inevitable, but i would count on it happening. He then converted his 89' supra to a 1jz. but anyways safest bet is to go with a metal head gasket, apparently HKS make a good one for the 7m.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Thu, 14 August 2003 12:40
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| Quote: |
There was a whole technical debate on the topic on supraforums.com, and numerous people (about 10, at least), posted in saying they had the head gasket re-torqued and still blew heaps of head gaskets. A guy i knew here who is a mechanic in a performance workshop blew 4 headgaskets running on that torque. It reduces the chances, and i'm not saying it's stricly inevitable, but i would count on it happening. He then converted his 89' supra to a 1jz. but anyways safest bet is to go with a metal head gasket, apparently HKS make a good one for the 7m.
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You sound like you read a lot but you don't actually have the nouse to sort out what should be ignored (most of it) and what is worth taking in (very little).
A lot of yanks seem to expect that they can run 4.75 bar on a stock head gasket with a retorqued head, and bag the motor when it blows a head gasket.
If the motor is healthy and well maintained, retorque the head bolts. You will have absolutely no problems with the head gasket as long as the car is kept in a standard or mild state of tune.
Oh, and if that guy blew four head gaskets then he's obviously just like 99% of car people - doesn't know what he's doing/talking about. Clearly the head or block must have had imperfections or the car had other issues that caused the head gasket to blow on regular occasion.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Thu, 14 August 2003 13:04
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I would believe less than 1% of what was written on supraforums...remember, it's full of 16 year old Yanks with way too much money and NFI.
The BHG is real but way hyped up. It is easily fixed. A recurrent problem suggests the repair was performed in a bodgy manner.
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Thu, 14 August 2003 13:48
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haha, yeah, clearly the mechanic who works in a performance workshop has no idea what he's doing... believe what u want guys, but most advanced articles by anyone who understands the ins and outs of the 7m-gte (i.e. fully rebuilt the engine and put together for racing) treat the head gasket as a maintanence issue, they don't even treat it as avoidable, expect it every 80 000 kms, and if you're going to up boost, keep a few gaskets handy.
BTW - one of the sources of information in that debate was a workshop that does r&d for toyota, and they conducted a few empirical tests on the re-torquing of the head bolts and found that it decreased the chances of blowing a head gasket by like 10% or something (would source it if supraforums wasn't down) - u can't tell me they've got NFI, and no offence if i havn't 'sniffed out' what's valid or not, i don't judge validity by nationality, but if i've read the same thing by 99% of information sources, most of which are from mechanics and even toyota themselves, i believed it. Like i said, believe what you want.
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Thu, 14 August 2003 14:14
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Also i ought to say, supraforums isn't my sole source of info. I had a whole heap of great sites on the topic, which unfortunantly are mostly lost, however here is a useful one
http://www.pcrealm.net/~howardh/supra/headgasket/b ackground/bhg-repair-bg.htm
A basic premise of which is the importance of the cooling system, so that's another preventative method alongside the re-torquing (which i definently think is worth doing, but i wouldn't expect it to 'alleviate' the problem, just help to prevent it a little).
And also, be careful if you're going to try and re-torque the head bolts yourself, as you will have to decide whether to undo the bolts a little, or totally, or not at all, before tightening them to the desired torque (usually 70 NM from memory, i think, or 68, something like that). But once again, be careful as there was a technical debate on this topic as well, with valid points on either side of the argument...
Well, good luck anyways with finding your mk3, hehe.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Fri, 15 August 2003 14:10
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I really struggle to control myself sometimes. I almost ENJOY arguing with you people.
| Esselte wrote on Thu, 14 August 2003 23:48 |
haha, yeah, clearly the mechanic who works in a performance workshop has no idea what he's doing...
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I was recently speaking to a workshop owner that did not know what a 1GGTE was. He suggested that it was probably a Nissan motor, then that it was actually a four cylinder, then that I had it confused with a twin turbo engine known as the RB20, and then thought I was talking about a 2JZ because that's the only motor Supras ever came with.
Sorry kiddo, but working in the industry does not qualify the fact that you know what you are talking about.
In fact, just a few weeks ago I went to Autobarn to purchase a set of plugs for my 7M "Hi, I'd like a set of plugs to suit a 1989 Toyota Supra Turbo with the 7MGTE Engine, and I would like one step colder than the factory rating"... I was then told that they did not have a listing for the car and that I would need to bring a plug in so that they could compare it with stock items.
I corrected the guy and advised that they were definitely listed. He did some digging and then I had to explain what the heat ratings on plugs were all about.
The guy promptly returned with the right spark plugs. Four of them. I told him I would need more, then he argued that they were definitely a four cylinder. Reluctantly he gave up, mumbling under his breath that I knew not what I was on about. He got me two more plugs.
I then asked him to let me know what the factory recommended plug gap was because I couldn't remember it off the top of my head. He then told me that because it was an import that it would not be available. I tried to tell him it was not an import and eventually just gave up and said "No worries, thanks mate" and walked off shaking my head.
| Quote: |
believe what u want guys, but most advanced articles by anyone who understands the ins and outs of the 7m-gte (i.e. fully rebuilt the engine and put together for racing) treat the head gasket as a maintanence issue, they don't even treat it as avoidable, expect it every 80 000 kms, and if you're going to up boost, keep a few gaskets handy.
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Question: How many 7MGTE's have you owned? How many others have you worked on? How much of your 'knowledge' is hands on? I would suggest that the answers are "Zero", "None", and again... "None".
I do stand corrected if you are indeed someone who "understands the ins and outs of the 7m-gte (i.e. fully rebuilt the engine and put together for racing)"
| Quote: |
BTW - one of the sources of information in that debate was a workshop that does r&d for toyota, and they conducted a few empirical tests on the re-torquing of the head bolts and found that it decreased the chances of blowing a head gasket by like 10% or something (would source it if supraforums wasn't down) - u can't tell me they've got NFI, and no offence if i havn't 'sniffed out' what's valid or not, i don't judge validity by nationality, but if i've read the same thing by 99% of information sources, most of which are from mechanics and even toyota themselves, i believed it. Like i said, believe what you want.
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On the whole, they don't know about anything that's not available in a HKS catalogue. Hell, I remember telling an incredulous group of American forum-goers that you can have a "custom" exhaust made up for your car.
It may be a generalisation that I make, but I'd suggest that it's a pretty damn accurate one.
And an engine that is built for "racing" would never last 80,000kms anyway, who are you kidding?
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Fri, 15 August 2003 15:31
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i've never met a workshop mechanic that didn't know what a 1ggte is, and this guy just converted his car to a 1jz, surely you don't think he's clueless? He's not some guy who works behind the counter in an Autobarn.
In terms of taking second hand information (that is, tech articles) over first hand experience, in the case of generalizing the reliablity of an engine, then unless you've owned hundreds of 7m-gte's, then how can you accurately say 'this torque setting on the head bolts fixes the head gasket issue' - it may have worked with yours, but would it work for everyone? How many 7m-gte's have you owned, it would have to be statistically significant. I mean seriously, do you think that the only way you can ever learn anything is first hand? These tech articles are mostly from people who specialize in 7mgte's, you don't think because you've done some work on your own (probably one engine) that your the only valid source of information? Because that would be totally egotistical.
In terms of building an engine for racing that doesn't last 80, 000 kms, well what kind of racing? Engines built for rallying and some of the most reliable engines around and would last 80 000 kms easy with some TLC. In terms of the 7mgte, i was talking about the 8 (i think) step official HKS guide to modding the 7mgte to produce i think 300+ kw at the wheels of a mk3 supra. But anyways, hope ur enjoying urself.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Yeppoon/Rockhampton
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 02:25
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don't know if your interested. but i've got a 2nd gen supra for sale.
asking $5500.
basically.
new engine
new paint
no rust
adjustable rear supsension
13.5" steering wheel.
new tyres
new alternator
new p/s pump
new water pump
i live in Rockhampton , qld
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 02:29
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I've researched the problem as if i owned one myself for a long time, as i assumed it would happen to me. I wish you could run into my mate sometime and call him a two bit fucktard to his face, but somehow, i can't imagine you'd do that. I take no offence, but i guess i should report this to a moderator
 have a good weekend.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 02:33
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If he is a performance store proprietor and believes any of the rubbish you have spouted, then I'd have no qualms telling him he is an idiot.
Which performance store is it, just so I can prewarn people before they go there?
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 02:44
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he's not the owner, he's a mechanic there. What rubbish is it that i've spouted? All i said is that the 7mgte's have an inherent head weakness, and was told that all the tech articles asserting this view are bullshit bcoz
1.) - the authors are yankees
2.) - Even though the people writing the articles are mechanics that have worked on these engines for years, including toyota mechanics, and often doing research for a company like HKS, they're incorrect in saying that the re-torquing doesn't totally alleviate head gasket issues because they havn't worked on one in their garage?
Please point me to the comprehansive tech articles that state the 7mgte has no head gasket issues and re-torquing will prevent all further blown head gakets...
I kept this to a technical discussion, or attempted to, but obviously u didn't. I've got no interest in continuing it now, and i'm not going to bother replying again.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 02:51
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Mechanic at which performance store then?
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 03:05
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Y do you want me to tell you? What are you going to do, start prank calling them like the psycho loser that you are? You'll probably hang around the store for weeks, then rock up with tech articles from the net saying 'did you know, that despite the pre-cat location delivering extra heat on the no. 5 and 6 cyliders on the 7m-gte, this still has no added affect to the head gasket in that area?' and they'll be like 'fuck off you knob jockey before we tell the cops you're stalking us'
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 03:07
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| gianttomato wrote on Sat, 16 August 2003 12:33 |
Which performance store is it, just so I can prewarn people before they go there?
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 03:09
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yeh and i really believe u, suffice to say that it is an import specialist workshop in Vic, that's all u need to know.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 03:28
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Just to refresh your memory....
| Esselte wrote on Sat, 16 August 2003 12:29 |
I wish you could run into my mate sometime and call him a two bit fucktard to his face, but somehow, i can't imagine you'd do that.
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Your idea, not mine. Your suggestions of violence and stalking open up a window to the workings of YOUR mind, not mine.
I actually don't believe you know anyone in the trade. Should the imaginary mechanic actually exist, my reason for knowing is to protect those with 7MGTEs...ie to make sure they don't go to this workshop.
I trust no workshop. My advice to all universally is to not take their car to a 'performance workshop' - as you have clearly illustrated, they generally have no idea. A trained monkey can bolt on a HKS kit, and possibly do a better job than the 'mechanics' employed in these premises. Most are actually not qualified mechanics.
Name the shop, or cease and desist.
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 06:23
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you personally attacked me, and the mechanic in person, not the other way around.
I suggested no violence, but simply proposed the situation of you repeating your verbal attacks (a two bit fucktard i think was what you called him) to his face, which essentially is no change from what you've communicated here, but it would be in person, and not over a forum on the internet. So obviously it is your sick mind that the attack originated from, i don't even think a 'trained monkey' would fall for that pathetic attempt to redirect any resulting blame of your insults to me.
I'm not going to bother replying again, the moderators can just delete this thread and do whatever they're supposed to do to someone who personally attacks another on this forum.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 07:35
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Name the shop.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 09:03
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GT - I *love* the signature
Esselte - Everyone that I know personoally from these forums thinks you are an idiot. Pipe down unless you know what you're talking about, and stop recycling other people's ideas that may or may not be relevant to the price of fish in - you guessed it - China.
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 09:21
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mate how old are you? seriously?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 09:38
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18...
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 09:38
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The Pre-Catalytic Converter (Pre-Cat) location is potentially another likely factor for BHG. CAT's typically have very high optimum operating temperatures. The location of the Pre-CAT provides an additional huge heat source during vehicle operation and immediately after shut down. This stagnant heat will provide an unequal heat source to the number 5 and 6 cylinders. The engine head will expand slightly more around these cylinders, especially on the exhaust side, therefore the gasket along this region would be more severely affected. The gasket will soon fail because of the additional stress in this region. Almost all BHG in the turbo engines usually fail on the exhaust side of cylinders 5 and 6 because the of where the Pre-Cat is located on 7MGTE's.
The presence of the heater hose that plumbs off of the rear of the engine by the # 6 cylinder can collect and retain the heated coolant during vehicle operation. The stored coolant because of the geometry and plumbing of the hose can inhibit sufficient flow into and out of the hose. This once again, is another heat source and potential BHG contributor. The heated coolant trapped in the hose will provide additional heat stress particularly on cylinder # 6. Once the motor is shut down, then the trapped coolant can allow unequal contraction of the head during the cool down stage. The head can then warp, thus causing improper head and gasket sealing during the next operation. BHG may potentially appear by cylinder # 6.
The main derivative to all the various failure mechanism is HEAT. The aim should be to reduce it, avoid it, and remove the residual sources. Therefore, unending attention should be made to the cooling system. Watch it diligently, scrutinize it often, flush it annually, change it regularly. Other culprits are: The HG - if you haven't experienced a BHG, the pay close attention to your coolant quality and state and the temperature on the guage cluster because it may be immenent. If you will replace the gasket, then get the newest version from toyota or better a MHG type. Retorque the head bolts and reinspect the often. Get an exhaust downpipe, the section from the turbo to the second cat on turbo cars or a header for N/A's. These exhaust mod's will usually remove the first CAT and you'll gain a benefit - a less restrictive exhuast which will improve HP. You can also plumb the rear intake heater hose to the the radiator or the water jacket. This will allow a constant flow of coolant from the rear of the engine, thus keeping cooler water flowing around the rear cylinders.
- Your point was that retorquing the head gasket will totally alleviate the problem. So how is this citation from the article i linked above incorrect? Don't pretend this is a tech issue, it's got nothing to do with me knowing what i'm talking about, you've both just attemped to personally attack me. You're like prep children. Neither of you cited tech articles, you said look up 7m-gte on google, i have, many times, and what i've found is many articles talking about how weak the head of the 7m-gte is, despite re-torquing. Even now i'm attempting to stick to tech points, but seeing as the post stands despite your blatant abuse of the forum rules, i may as well reply.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 09:48
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For a guy who keeps saying he's going to stop posting, you're doing a mighty poor job of it.
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attemped to personally attack me
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I did no such thing. I just stated a fact. It is a fact that my friends and I believe that you are an idiot.
Oh, and there you go again. Passing off someone else's information so that you seem like you know what you're talking about.
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 09:57
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Errr, i find your logic really weird.
Calling me an idiot isn't stating a fact, it's a personal insult.
Y can't u criticize the article? You're saying i'm wrong because i didn't first write this article? I'm not passing this info off as mine, i'm CITING ANOTHER ARTICLE...i said that. All i've done so far is talk about what i've read from the majority of tech articles on the web. Once again, you don't seem to find anything incorrect about this article, yet you're willing to say that i don't know shit and to piss off and shutup...
Tell me what's wrong with this citation. Is it not true?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: WTB Supra
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Sat, 16 August 2003 10:23
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So now you're going to pick on me because I'm only 18? I'll get my dad to come on the forums and then we'll see who's boss.
I'm not specifically arguing with the article, it has a number of good points. Cooling system maintenance is not relevant, as this should be done on ANY car, personally I would flush the system far more regularly than suggested by the gospel... I mean the article you stole... I mean cited. Yes, that's it.
But now that you mention it.. why aren't cylinders 3 and 4 prone to damage due to the red hot lump of metal they call a "turbo" (you do know what a turbo is, right?) that sits practically on top of them? If given the choice 20 minutes after a vehicle has been driven, I'd much rather touch an exhaust component than the turbo itself.
Not saying that the heat issues mentioned aren't relevant.. but I'm saying they're probably no worse than on any other passenger vehicle. The article doens't really offer any proof, just speculation. Apparently they are more prone to blowing on 5 & 6... this means nothing! If you follow the same logic, you could end up thinking that the firewall causes blown head gaskets, because cylinders 5 & 6 are closest. Spare me.
It's just that people notice a lot more when it's a 7M head gasket. My hosuemate blew a number of head gaskets on a non turbo VL Commodore due to poor installation. Bet you don't hear that RB30's munch head gaskets? Because they have a factory weakness - in the head torque - people associate every failure with the same problem, when in fairness this is most likely not the case.
More than anything I'm getting at the fact that you came in here, all guns blazing acting like you were the great Lord God of 7M's and had written the book on the things. I have not said the information is incorrect, I have just said that you should say "here is a link, you may find it relevant".
My other main argument is that your performance shop buddy (whose workshop apparently doesn't have a name) obviously doesn't know what he's doing.
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Toymods Board Member
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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locked thread
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Sun, 17 August 2003 04:32
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1. keep the tech discussions to the tech section - do NOT hijack someone elses thread in the wrong section
2. this has gotten out of hand - keep the tempers under control and do not take things so personally
if you want to continue this discussion please create a new thread in the tech section - however any evidence of personal attacks will be deleted
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