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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Bang for buck
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Fri, 29 August 2003 05:20
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Greetings all,
This is a bit of a long read, but hopefully an interesting one... questions are towards the bottom..
I currently own a 3T-GTEU powered TA-22 Celica & have it set up quite well in the handling & braking departments, but I am evaluating different options to improve the power output.
I am looking to develop an engine that can produce at least 300rwhp / around 430flyw hp with a "useable" power curve - suited for circuit racing.
Reliability is also a crucial factor also.
I am looking at continuing to super sprint it at Phillip Island, Winton, Sandown & Calder (if it is still available??)
The choices I have been investigating are:
- Rebuilding the current 3T-GTEU
- Selling off the 3TG & replacing it with something like....
- 3S-GTE turbo & rebuilding it
- SR-20
- 13B Turbo
- try shoe-horning in a 2JZ-GTE
Given that I already have a working standard 3TG in the vehicle, this would be my favoured option as I would not need to go out & purchase a new engine... but, if I can't get the right HP out of it, then I may as well start-over with something new.
I would be looking at doing the labour myself & have built many successful naturally aspirated race engines, from 4A-GEs to 13B bridgeports, but I don't have a lot of experience with Turbo engines.
It used to be my daily ride & I had the 3T-GTEU / Supra 5sp / custom diff / adj front struts / custom brakes all engineer approved around 7 years ago when I lived in Adelaide.
Since I moved to Melbourne I found it wasn't very "traffic friendly" or "speeding fine friendly" so I decided to use it for track use only & since then has not been registered.
I have built the car so far to IPRA regulations, but I am currently not really concerned about which category I run it in, as long as I can run it in some super-sprint category (even if I am in with the "big boys")
Eventually, I may be looking to ad a restrictor & race it as a IPRA vehicle, or maybe go full on into a Sports sedan...but I would prefer to have some more fun just sprinting it without having it restricted for at least the next couple of years.
Currently I am running the 3T-GTEU on a LPG GasResearch setup, & is tuned (ignition timing / curves) have been setup to run on LPG only.
It does seem to work quite well, especially seeing that the GasResearch Throttle body is quite large. Comparing it to a couple of mate's 3T-GTEUs it also seems to go a bit harder (as I always seem to leave them behind).. but that may also be another factor.
My question was, has anyone ever played around with a Performance LPG setup, either GasResearch or LPG injection?
I was thinking about a raw LPG injection (not converted) & using the cooling effect to allow me to run higher boost... if it was somehow possible to meter it accurately enough??
From what I have heard LPG is actually quite high octane (120??) which also makes me wonder if I could run some other "special mixes" like pure propane or some other stuff that may be available (it will also come in handy if I want to have a BBQ too!)
If anyone has ever experimented with anything like this, I would be most curious to know what works & what doesn't?
Can anyone recommend which "path" I should take that would give me these results, while keeping it to a decent budget?
I am particularly interested in anyone who has faced a similar choice already & could share with me some of their wisdom.
Another issue, if I go for anything else than a 3T-GTEU, I would need to start back at square 1, sell off the current engine & re fit the new engine etc... with all that is involved in doing that, I wonder if I could better spend the money on the 3T-GTEU instead
Cheers... 3T-GTE
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Fri, 29 August 2003 05:43
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I wouldn't try getting that sort of power out of a 3T; you'd pretty much have to strip it down and replace half of the engine. You'd need forged pistons, ARP rod bolts and head studs, heavily ported cylinder head, custom manifolds... the list goes on. In summary, it would end up being a very expensive 3T-GTE.
A much better option is to start with something more modern like the 3S-GTE or SR20DET. Both engines are proven packages, and extracting 400hp from either is a well-documented process. The initial cost of installing the engine will be higher, but this is easily offset by not having to replace almost everything with custom bits and pieces.
Forget the 2JZ idea, it won't come close to fitting without major structural surgery, and even if it did it would completely root the handling. Stick with the four-bangers if you want your car to handle around a circuit.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Fri, 29 August 2003 06:12
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Thanks for the reply norbie,
As I am looking to circuit race this & want it to be mega-reliable (ie not a "grenade") ...so I would be looking to rebuild the 3S-GTE anyway with forged pistons, ARP rods, bolts, cams, o-ring, custom manifolds etc...
I would have thought that by the time I did this to a 3T-GTEU vs a 3S-GTE & brought the capacity of the 3T-GTEU up to that of the 3S-GTE, that the difference would only be in the head flow between the 2 engines.... & while the 3S-GTE would give me more power, I think that both of them would give me more than 300 rwhp / 430 fwhp... just that the 3S-GTE would give me more.
Am I wrong in thinking that? I would be interested to compare what the max HP that someone has got out of a 3T-GTEU vs a 3S-GTE really is. If there was only 50 HP difference in the 2, I would be better off sticking with the 3T-GTEU, & not having to change over everything, & could put that money towards something else.
What are your thoughts? Do you know of anyone who has faced a similar choice?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Fri, 29 August 2003 06:28
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My novice advice would also be to go for the 3SGTE, I feel they are a more reliable source of high horspower, and a much more modern motor when compared to the 3TGTE. Even if you could have the two motors putting out similar power, the reliability of the 3SGTE would far outweigh the cost effectivness of retaining the 3TGTE. Alternatively replacing everything with a 13BT would also be an option, however have you priced rebuild parts lately?!? The weight of the rotary would certainly be a determining factor in selecting a light powerful engine.
I also feel you could sell of your current driveline for a lot more than you could buy a 3SGTE to suit rebuild for, so could regain money for the build by changing engine families.
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Fri, 29 August 2003 23:52
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Thanks for the reply clintgodde.
Yes, it does look like it is time to say goodbye to the 3T-GTEU & start looking at alternatives.
When I get a spare minute over the weekend, I am going to sit down & do some sums & total up the cost of doing a 3S-GTE conversion vs keeping the 3T-GTEU just to see the difference in cost... I will also have a look into going down the 13B Turbo path also..
Can any one give me some prices on...
Pistons (given std bore is 85 mm - for the 3TG what is the best size to go for?)
- Compression Ratio
- Turbo
- Cams
- Other head mods (valves, porting, springs, etc...)
- O-ring / copper gaskets (who do I go to in Melb & how much?)
- Conrods (is it worthwhile going for a stroker kit) (will std rods hold on the that sort of power???)
I know the rotary world quite well, but haven't really played around with turbos much apart from the 3T-GTEU. So any advice or rough pricing as to how much I am looking at would be a big help.
Cheers,
3TG
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Fri, 29 August 2003 23:58
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Thanks for the advice... EMP-2TG ...I will have to contact them, especially if they are in Melbourne.
I am really keen to weigh up the difference in cost with keeping the 3T-GTEU vs spending a whole lot of hassel going to a 3S-GTE .... If the 3T-GTEU can get me that 300 rwhp (223 rwkw) and still be reliabe, then what is the point in going to the 3S-GTE if it is going to cost more... do you get my point?
Cheers,
3TG
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Sat, 30 August 2003 09:22
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Go the rotor. Easy to get big hp gains out of the 13B Turbo. I reakon they are the best bang for buck. Add a front mount, exhaust, Greddy TD06 turbo, external wastegate, bigger injectors, engine management and i would think u'd be looking at a low 12 sec pass. Mite not be the right power/weight ratio for what u want to use it for though.
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Location:
Hornsby, Sydney
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Sun, 31 August 2003 06:34
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I will agree with boj01. a 13B turbo would be the easiest way to make that kind of power. or my only other thought was if you considered the RB nissan motors. they wouldnt fit to easily i think but would be able to get that sort of power.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Sun, 31 August 2003 23:25
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Are you serious?? How are you going to fit an RB engine in a TA22 engine bay?
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Mon, 01 September 2003 00:20
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norbie have u forgotten that 4WD RB26DETT TA22 thread a while back?
it'll end up costing around 10 grand, dave and ed even posted pictures of that conversion...
perhaps they can repost these technical documents.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Bang for buck
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Mon, 01 September 2003 11:06
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If all you are after is 300 rwhp then the 3T-GTE is quite capable. No arguement the 3S-GTE is a better engine tho.
Jasons 3T-GTE is the most reliable proven performer 3T-GTE wise in the club. It is not by any means heavily modified. In fact internally it is completely stock bar a set of Forged pistons.
It does benefit form a custom JMR intake and exhaust manifold and has a CT26 fitted. Front mount intercooler and a Wolf 3D and it is very reliably seeing just over the 190 rwkw mark ( or 254 rwkw)
That is with stock head and cams too ! Oh and driven daily.
So do the math and see how you go. A JMR exhaust manifold will set you back approx $700. Intake I am not sure, (They are not cheap but Damn they work !!!!! ) Personally I would be fitting a Ball bearing Garret item or similar (Actually I am to mine already  ).
Heres a head start:
Forgies - $1200 (Mine are 2mm oversize, ie 87mm)
Turbo Manifold - $700
Intake Manifold - $????
Turbo - $400 (Or around $2000 - $2500 for a GT?? )
From there you can add whatever you like. Head work, Cams, etc etc etc. Hope that helps.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Bang for buck
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Mon, 01 September 2003 11:14
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Oh, If you are planing to go balls and all on the 3T-GTE,
ie rebuilt head and bottom end ,custom cams, porting, ALL new parts, nitrided crank, shotpeaned rods, custom manifolds, Ball bearing turbo, forged pistons, Head studs, custom sump, copper head gasket, front mount intercooler, ARP rod bolts, Billet flywheel and dowels to crank. (Like I have - Bar the head studs, for now.)
Then it would be worthwhile considering the 3S-GTE
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Mon, 01 September 2003 23:38
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Thanks thetoyman75... Your situation, engine wise, looks very similar to mine.
While I know that the 3S-GTE is a superior engine, I find it interesting that everyone bags the 3T-GTE...
I always thought it was a pretty strong, solid engine as far as the bottom end goes. All you had to do was put in a decent set of forged pistons & make sure you put it together properly & you have got a good solid engine that can handle a fair bit of boost.
What sort of boost is Jason's 3T-GTE running, & is the CT26 high flowed?
Do you know of anyone who played around with stroking the 3T-GTE via offset grinding the crank?... It does have a very short stroke (78mm)... which is good for getting it up in the revs, but I thought if you could get it to around the same as the bore, ie square, (say match it to oversized pistons 87mm x 87mm) the bigger capacity (2067.88cc) would certianly be worthwhile??
Also, are you planning to do anything to your engine in the head / cam / o-ring department??
Sorry for so many questions .... what are your thoughts on all this?
Cheers,
3T-GTE
[Updated on: Tue, 23 September 2003 23:53]
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Mon, 01 September 2003 23:42
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No-one is bagging the 3T-GTE; it's merely being pointed out that the 3S-GTE is a superior engine. This should come as no surprise given that the 3T-GTE has been out of production for nearly 20 years! The old 3T is certainly capable of the power you're chasing, but I still think the 3S would be the more cost-effective solution.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Mon, 01 September 2003 23:54
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Yes, Norbie, very true.
If I was starting from scratch I would certainly be going down the path of the 3S-GTE.
However, my situation already having an installed & working 3T-GTE makes the descision to switch a more expensive one.
I still have to go through all the details, but looking at the maths so far, almost $2000 more, by the time I sell of my 3T-GTE bits & then go out & purchase the 3S-GTE, new bellhousing, modifying engine mounts, plumbing, wiring, etc... That's a couple of grand which could be spent better on other things...
To use a line from a popular movie, I have to choose between the blue pill or the red pill... I am still considering the swap, as I haven't finished all the sums & look at what I would end up with if I chose to go down 1 path or the other.
I will keep you all posted as to which way I finally go, but I am still leaning towards the 3T-GTE at this stage.... hey, if it doesn't work out, I could always sell that off & start over again, re-using some parts... like turbo, ecu, etc...
Cheers,
3T-GTE
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Tue, 02 September 2003 12:27
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3T-GTE,
Mate the 3T-GTE is old technology and hence it does cop some flack and I am the first to admit, when next to a 3S-GTE I wouldn't be picking the 3T. (All being equal in terms of install etc of course !)
BUT they are not a bad thing, There are a large number of people who hang shit on them. These are the generally same people who who should never have been allowed to own a car in the first place. The vast bulk of complaints have been quite simply because of the persons own incompetence or they were to cheap to do a decent job. thers an old saying "You can't polish a Turd" you use shit parts you get a shit engine.
Jason runs 24 PSI at the creek to the best of my knowledge. The turbo is STOCK !
And yes the 3T-GTE bottom end can handle high boost as long as everything is set up properly. They are not a forgiving engine.
My engine is not yet finished so I can't say how it goes or comment on it to much. In theory it should be a good thing but hey time will tell. Might all go bang on the Dyno yet !
My head is actually a 2T-GEU head. It has been ported, oversize exhaust valves, 3 angle valve job and a set of very agressive custom ground hard faced cams. Cams were just under $700 as they are hard faced items not regrinds. A set of regrinds will set you back around $200 give or take $50.
Is this a good setup ?????? I dunno, I beleive it will be but hey I won't know untill i get it running. I am just testing a theory or two and am prepared to keep testing things till I get it right.
The block has been O ringed and it has a copper head gasket.
As for offsetting the crank.... I don't know anyone that has and the Y series crank hybrids are apparantly just not a good idea (they throw rods and are crappy revers based on what little I have found out about them)
I am happy to stick with the stock 78mm stroke (pretty sure the 3T is 78mm not 75mm, once again the grey matter is a bit dodgy at the moment)
Hope that helps,
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Tue, 02 September 2003 22:55
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Yes, that does help, thanks.
So how long before your engine will be finished? I will be very interested to see the results.
What sort of turbo / trim / AR / etc.. have you chosen to go with & what sort of horsepower are you aiming for?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Tue, 02 September 2003 23:35
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| thetoyman75 wrote on Tue, 02 September 2003 22:27 |
Jason runs 24 PSI at the creek to the best of my knowledge. The turbo is STOCK !
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Jason's running a CT26... I can't imagine a CT20 developing 24psi boost!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Tue, 02 September 2003 23:43
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Hi Norbie,
Yes, I was aware that Jason was using a CT26 ... I just wasn't sure if it had been high flowed to get that sort of HP, or if he was using just a standard CT26.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Wed, 03 September 2003 17:34
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My engine is still a while off yet. Can't see it this side of New years. I would like it ready for January but I am not sure I will make it. 
Turbo is a GT25, A kinda big GT25 tho, It is rated at 478hp !
It was assembled and supplied by Ray hall in Qld. Its the -32 Core and a .86 housing. Depending what you want this may be too big or small for your application.
What am I aiming for ? When I started I wanted 150 rwkw, Pretty sure i will overshoot that but hey I'd rather the results speak for themselves if it gets them.
The car specs are here:
http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&t h=15506
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Thu, 04 September 2003 00:55
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Hi Rod,
It looks to me like you are certainly going to great lengths to do things right.
I will be very interested to see the dyno figures / engine characteristics when you get it all up & running.
By my calculations, if you are going up the boost & get the most out of the turbo you should be looking for well over 200kw at the wheels.
I was having a chat with Michael (mr shin) yesterday about LPG injection (amongst other things). So between you & him & I really interested to see how things pan out.
Thanks for all the advice,
3T-GTE
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Thu, 04 September 2003 02:16
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My tuner (Dick) has a pretty wild 3T. He's using a turbo off a 12A engine and is pushing 24psi (he doesn't have a wastegate).
The engine internals are completely STOCK. He's never opened the cam cover. I think the intake and exhaust manifolds are stock too, just an adapter for the turbo.
He is however a car-computer tuner, and has such put on an extra 4 LARGE injectors, and has twin fuel tanks, one Methanol.
Last dyno day, after not driving the car for 2 years except to get a pink slip, he drove it over to the dyno. Took it around the block and thought it sounded like it was pinging, so he switched to methanol and put it on the dyno for a 166rwkw run(not huge, but it hadn't been driven for 2 years!).
He's currently got my old T04E and is looking at putting it on (again without a wastegate). If he doesn't install it before next dyno day, I'll push him to tune what he's got now (at the risk of my own life as I'll probably have to sit next to him when he does it)
3T-GTEUs are very capable of 225rwkw. If your going to bullet-proof the bottom end, and tune it correctly, with a nice new ball bearing turbo it'll be very reliable and very powerful, and with the new BB turbo will have a great power band.
After going through an engine change, I wouldn't want to do it again (not even for a late model 2J-T). I think you should stick with your 3T.
If you want Dick's details, gimme a PM. He LOVES the 3T engines.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Thu, 04 September 2003 03:32
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Hi Peter,
I think that is the "path" I am going to go down for now....
- Stick with the 3T-GTE, go out & circuit sprint it for a while (& remember how to race something on 4 wheels again!)...
Hey, its got 135kw atw now, so it should be a little bit of fun
- Meanwhile, save up a few more $$ for a decent bb turbo (prob a GT40) & parts for a "solid" engine
- Try running the new turbo & my current LPG setup for a while (keeping the tuning side of things rather conservative - 190kw)
- Then, build up the 3T-GTE with the new setup (probably be very similar to Rod's (except trying to keep the costs down a bit) (thetoyman75) http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&t h=15506
- Then I will start looking into a LPG injection setup if mr shin has any sucess with his setup.
- If then, I still don't have enough power, I will then start saving for the next engine ... but I should be able to re-use a lot of the parts I have newly purchased, eg (turbo, ecu, injectors, etc...)
If you could PM me dick's details, I would be interested to have a chat with him.
I am looking to build the engine with a bit more torque in mind.... nice flat / useable power curve as possible. Ideally, something that starts working at 2000rpm & is really pulling by 3000rpm & keeps going up to 7000rpm.
Do you have any suggestions on what I could do to achieve that. Eg what compressor / turbine wheels & trim to give this sort of powerband... cam timings? valve size modifications?
I already have a few ideas, but I am interested to know what other people's thoughts are, especially from those who have "been there & done that"
[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2003 03:34]
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Thu, 04 September 2003 03:48
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Try and talk to as many turbo shops as you can in regards to turbo innards choice.
It sounded from your first post that you wanted to keep the 3T.
If you do what you said there and slowly modify it, you can keep costs down (time wise) and can make sure each little bit helps while racing.
135rwkw would be great fun!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Thu, 04 September 2003 04:25
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So can anyone recommend any good turbo shops in Melbourne that really know their stuff, & preferably give good service too.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Fri, 03 October 2003 02:29
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I have it all sorted now... as a conclusion / summary
The 3T-GTE will be the best "bank for buck" that I can do with my current situation.
Given a "clean slate" I would probably be looking at a 13B turbo... even better would be to get my hands on a Renesis 13B & play with that.
I will let everyone know how things work out, & post some before/after dyno sheets up when I have got it all together.
Thanks for everyone's help.
Cheers,
3T-GTE
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bang for buck
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Fri, 03 October 2003 02:43
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awesome
looking forward to hearing more about it
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Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Bang for buck
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Fri, 03 October 2003 04:00
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sounds grooovy 
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