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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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 N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 01:20
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A few months ago, I got my hands on a fully imported MKIV JZA80 2JZ-GE Supra. As you can see, the GE is missin a 'T', and hence, she is of the non-turbo variety.
It was imported from Japan about a year ago with 65,000 on the dial and runs smoother than any other I've driven.
Only modified small bits and pieces so far, as I'm still pouring over tech documents, magazines and forums deciding exactly what I want to do under the hood.
Mods so far include brand spankin new DBA slotted and vented rotors (front and rear) to go with her new EBC Greenstuff / Blackstuff pads. Windows have been tinted, some minor interior mods, a new FF Bomex front bar and new Veilside sides and rears. I've posted to the 'Parts Wanted' section lookin for a sweet set of 18s and I'll be lookin to slam her a few inches once the kit is on.
The original plan was a 300+rwkw GT 35/40 Garrett system, but as it's a daily driver, common sense has prevailed to a degree, and I'm now very keen to bolt a supercharger on. The electronic clutch system run of the EMU will keep my fuel economy on the prosperous side of 'Damn, now I'm broke' and the nitrous-like linear power curve is pretty damn appealing.
Been researching N/A Supercharger conversions for some time, and I've got a fair idea what I want to do. My options are a full Blitz Japan N/A Supra Compressor conversion kit (comes with compressor, pulley, all wires, EMU, intercooler, the works) or matching a custom Vortech kit (need mounting brackets etc made up) myself from CAPA.
Dyno results so far have her rollin at around 115rwkw, and the calcualtions I've done (thanks to an article in Zoom magazine No. 70) mean I'll be needing an engine mass air flow rate around 50lbs/min to gain the sort of power I'm after (around the 250+rwkw mark).
If there's a Supercharger system out there that can gain me more power than this without boostin the 2JZ-GE to breaking point, then I'd be keen to check it out.
Otherwise, are there any suggestions as to what overall system would best suit this sort of set-up? ie. what compressor / intercooler / EMU combination would best suit if I don't go for the complete bolt-on Blitz Japan DIY conversion kit?
Any help would be greatly appreciated peeps!
Cheers.
[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2003 01:21]
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 02:45
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personally i would stick with the Garrett Gt3540 route but i haven't ever been in a supercharged car. check out www.to4r.com. i think there are a couple of guys there that have done the NA - T conversion before.
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 02:48
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Cheers - I'll check it out ASAP.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 03:41
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| Loco wrote on Wed, 05 November 2003 12:36 |
Rather have somethin quicker and more original than a TT.
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What makes you think your hobbled-together supercharger kit will be quicker than the factory TT setup? Unless you're planning to invest huge sums of money into this project, don't expect it to out-perform a TT Supra with BPU mods.
As for originality, I'm all for it when it comes to cosmetic mods, but when it comes to making outright power, the proven package is always a winner. A turbo setup will be easier, cheaper, and make more power at any given level of development.
Having said that, you've obviously made up your mind already so there's not much point offering advice. Good luck with it.
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 04:03
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Hobbled together? CAPA have massive data on supercharger systems. I've emailed them myself and they're confident I can achieve between 250 and 300rwkw with the system I'm being quoted on.
Haven't made my mind up - that's why I'm still askin questions. Always up for good advice.
Just don't see the point of another GT35/40 converted Supra running around (although I got a quote on that set-up too). It's been done. Check out half the MKIVs on the front of Zoom or HPI.
Not saying that wouldn't be a sweet set-up, as it would no doubt blow the doors off of 99% of street legal cars, just thought a supercharger system with that sorta power would be something unique.
Having said that, I read through the tech doc on to4r.com and they don't speak highly of Superchargers either. Damn, gettin swayed back to turbos again  ....hmmm....
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I supported Toymods
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I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 04:38
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Swift Racing Technologies in the US do a supercharger kit for the VVTi 2JZGE. I think it is around the 7-10K USD mark. They have a web site - somewhere.
I'm a bit of a cynic regarding the power claims. You certainly wouldn't be getting that power without opening the motor and decompressing it.
I'm with Norbie. The proven package is the best route. Whilst CAPA may have a massive database regarding their superchargers, I suggest you ask them how many they have actually done, what problems they have encountered and what the final power output actually was. Ask if you can contact the owners and see if they are happy with their conversion.
The main problems I can see are the unhelpful placement of the disributor and accessories, and the 10:1 comp ratio.
At the end of the day, it's a 3 litre motor running low boost - you'll see an improvement, but I wouldn't get too excitied. You'll still have your ass handed to you on a plate by a 2JZGTE with a bleed valve as it's only mod.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 04:46
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| Loco wrote on Wed, 05 November 2003 12:20 |
Dyno results so far have her rollin at around 115rwkw
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| Loco wrote on Wed, 05 November 2003 12:20 |
the sort of power I'm after (around the 250+rwkw mark).
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| Loco wrote on Wed, 05 November 2003 12:20 |
without boostin the 2JZ-GE to breaking point
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Ohhh.... Kay.....
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 05:09
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Nark - Check out Zoom No. 70.
Start with a 3.0 litre N/A 2JZ-GE. The factory turbo charged variety can sustain 250kw at the rears without breakin a sweat.
Take my stock 115rwk. To make the same power as the TT, 250kw, you need to convert it into hp for the sake of the calcs.
So 250kw x 1.34 = 335hp.
To make up from for drivetrain losses, add around 20% (roughly) to get a crankshaft power of around 400hp.
Divide that through by 10 to get your engine mass airflow in pounds per minute of 40 lbs/min.
Looking for a pressure ration of 1.9, which is close to 13psi (or 0.9bar) of actual boost pressure, check out the V1-S trim Compressor map and see the results.
Now that's with not a lot of boost and the bottom of the line supercharger system. a V-7 YS-Trim is a different story again.
Like I said, the main worry is data reliabilty in the case of the Supra conversion.
Thanks for the advice anyway guys. Got more thinkin to do by the looks.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 05:10
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| Loco wrote on Wed, 05 November 2003 15:56 |
Hey Nark, what sort of kws does your ride pull?
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124.8kW. But it was built for boost.
Running enough boost to double your standard power requires strong internals. Internals that an N/A engine doesn't really have. Unless we're talking about a 1UZ...
If you're gonna double your power, you're gonna have to open up your engine and put stronger bits in if you want the engine to last. Or, at the very least, lower your compression ratio.
Remember, your engine is a 2JZ-GE, not a 2JZ-GTE.
I'd suggest swapping a 2JZ-GTE in so that you have a base for big boost. And, well, Norbie's 2JZ-GTE with a bleed valve pushed out 228kW... Straight up. No mess. No fuss.
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I supported Toymods
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I renounced punctuation
Registered:
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 05:11
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Not entirely sure that people underestimate it - it is just overlooked. That is entirely understandable when there is a perfectly good turbo variant of the motor that is extremely well supported.
Even NA-T variants here in Australia are uncommon. Talk to "6BOOST" on Performance Forums....he is currently setting one up and you may be able to exchange ideas.
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 05:30
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| Loco wrote on Wed, 05 November 2003 16:09 |
Looking for a pressure ration of 1.9, which is close to 13psi (or 0.9bar) of actual boost pressure, check out the V1-S trim Compressor map and see the results.
Now that's with not a lot of boost
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13psi not a lot of boost?!?!?!?
To double your power, you'll need to double the air flow and what better way than to add an extra atmosphere of pressure on top?
Common sense will tell you that. You don't need calculations to show you that.
Oh. I've been told by a good authority that the GE internals are the same as the GTE (with regards to strength). So I'll take what I said back. 
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 05:35
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 You had me worried there! Was thinkin 'Damn, now I gotta get a new engine....'  .
Yeah, 13psi is big @ss boost - been tryin to find a compressor map that better suits what I want. What boost do you think I can run at without hurtin it too much?
Bearing in mind I don't want to sell the car, it sounds like the best option is what I started out with - the big single turbo conversion.
My head hurts.
All I want to do is annihilate a bunch of Nissans so they respect Toyotas...is that too much to ask??? 
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 05:43
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all this talk about boost and horsepower, where is the talk about fueling and engine management?
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 05:46
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EMUs, intercoolers, injectors and fuel pumps etc were always included in the quotes I had done.
Head....spinning.....
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 06:01
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as has been mentioned, making 250+rwkw will probably require a drop in compression.
I'm a turbo man personally, and if you were to go a t-88 I'd be hoping for more than 300rwkw!!
no need to go something that big
sounds like you have a fairly large budget - if you only want the 250rwkw, I'd look at the relative costs of turboing your existing engine, and just slotting a 2jz-gte in there (or if you're feeling especially affluent, the vvti gte)
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 06:14
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you got good taste, I'll give ya that 
250rwkw is a *lot*
mine only had 200rwkw, but weighs in around 200-300kg less than the mkIV, so the acceleration would be comparable.
I only ever got beaten by 2 things - a ducatti 996 (which you can forget about ever beating with a daily driver) and an audi RS4 (which does 0-100 in less than 5 secs). GTRs, gtst, STi rexies - all beaten. I've never had the chance to take on a modded gtr admittedly, though I suspect they would spank me.
that said, I want 250rwkw out of my ma61, and that's the limit only due to injector/turbo limits - once I've had that for a while and get bored, I'll be looking for 300+ (run ~250 most times, with a computer and boost changeover for ~350)
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 06:23
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Yeah, posters, DVDs, comics, the graphic novels - you name it. Room used to be covered in Crow stuff. Part 4 is due for release soon. Apparently starts Angel's David Borreanz and a chick who's name I just forgot....
Back to boosting - my goals are to have a MKIV Supra that will knock most S15s, R33s, R34s, RX7s, WRXs, XR6s, HSVs etc off the road, but is still a daily driver.
How that happens is still up for debate.
TT - easiest option, gives me ballpark 250kw.
Single turbo - proven option, gives me 300+ kw.
Supercharger - unproven, but good fuel economy, linear power curve, zero lag, cheaper than single turbs. Looks like a beter daily drive option on paper, especially with the newly released DIY Supra conversion kit from Blitz.
It's a balance thing in the end - hard to decide though.
The new front bar, skirts, rear pods and rims will take care of the looks - just need to sort the power.
How driveable on a daily basis is a 300 and somethin kw boosted monster? If it's not that big a deal, then the turbs may get the thumbs up...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 06:29
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MMmm... david borneaz
he's a bit chunky for the role, but he rocks in angel - we'll see.
drivability all depends how you drive it!
of course it'll be a little laggy - but if you're going to go someone, you should be keeping the revs up above 4.5k anyhow!
then when you're cruising, it'll be a little sluggish, having very little boost at low revs (talking single turbo conversion here - if you swap in a 2jz-gte it's fairly responsive down low)
and every car you listed is pretty easy to spank - r34 gtrs may be a different matter, but there are not many around.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 06:31
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| Loco wrote on Wed, 05 November 2003 14:23 |
Supercharger - unproven, but good fuel economy, linear power curve, zero lag, cheaper than single turbs. Looks like a beter daily drive option on paper, especially with the newly released DIY Supra conversion kit from Blitz.
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I think you have a few mis-conceptions about turbo engines. One thing I don't agree with here is fuel economy, a Roots type supercharger will always produce boost, making it feel like a bigger engine but will be just as bad as a turbo. With a turbo, providing you are easy on the throttle it is quite straight forward to drive off boost.
Zero lag in a supercharger also depends on the type of supercharger, a Roots type (like the Toyota ones) will produce boost off idle, whereas the Blitz one or something from CAPA will most likely be centrifugal, producing boost directly related to revs so you won't be making full boost till full revs, personally i'd like the big mid-range and top end whack a turbo can deliver.
You might be beneficial picking up a later model HKS turbo, you'll probably find the 250-300rwkW you are after is available with not a HUGE decrease in boost response over the factory 2JZGTE turbos.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 06:36
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I have no doubt that a supercharged 2JZ-GE can work, and work very well, but my whole problem with the concept is that you're basically trying to re-invent the wheel. You want a boosted 2JZ? Toyota already built one 10 years ago! CAPA are good at what they do, but they're not as good as Toyota and they didn't build a whole engine from the ground up. That's where my "cobbled together" comment was coming from.
All this talk of psi and kW and compressor maps ignores the complexity, frustration and enormous expense of doing any custom mods on a late-model car; especially when you're doing something different like this. Learn from the experience of those who have been there and done that, and there are several in this thread! No offence, but I get the impression you've read a lot of shiny magazines and glossy brochures but haven't done much of getting your hands dirty with some serious mods...
If you absolutely must be different just for the sake of being different, and you have the patience, foresight and above all budget to pull it off, go for your life. I'll be the first to congratulate you when you succeed. On the other hand if you just want a really fast Supra, do what everyone else does: put a proven turbo package on a proven turbo Supra engine and enjoy walking all over just about anything on the road. Don't make it any harder than it has to be, you'll regret it later!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 06:39
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One other thing: a bloke I know was recently quoted $2500 for an Aristo front cut, including a complete 2JZ-GTE engine. How much was the CAPA kit again?
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 07:24
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I have considered this very conversion.....was pretty pumped to do it for the 'something different' factor, but reality kicked in and a US $10K kit is pretty damn expensive.
Hell, with my current setup, i can just swap a 2jzgte straight in, with pipes and a bit of reinforecement here and there, for less than AU$3k.
If i had the option of 300rwkw S/C and 300rwkw turbo 2j, id take the supercharger for pure road driveability, however, there is going to be nothing short of a custom ecu, controlling custom fueling and ignition etc etc etc
As norbie said.....stick with the non jerryrigged factory system.
Hey i cant beat all the turbo boys, but i give some a scare. For the time being though, i will be unleashing the atmo power of a 2J.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 08:09
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| Loco wrote on Wed, 05 November 2003 16:46 |
EMUs ... were always included in the quotes I had done.
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I thought Emu's were rwkw retarders. Unless you mean Emu Export, in which case they are great for unintended drifting.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 22:37
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Get a 7mgte and that will solve all your problems.
Seriously you look at that USD$10k kit. You could buy a front cut for, oh, say $7k. That then means that you have another $10k to mess around with it adding mods etc before you spend the same amount of money. Seems like you you be getting better value for money.
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 22:41
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Hey bud,
Sounding like the single turbo conversion option makes more sense. It's been done and proven and gets the sorta kws I'm after. Still thinkin.
 Get this dude - just got told by work to delay 2moro's flight to Sydney till Monday....guess who's gonna kill me....
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 23:02
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Boss is makin the call now - I'm a dead man.
So the plan (after much debate) has again changed back to single big turbo (probably GT35/40 with dump pipe, BOV etc) , new manifold, intercooler, EMU, exhaust, air induction blah blah...
Oh well. Won't matter after my girlfriend kills me now anyway, unless of course I can be buried in it?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Wed, 05 November 2003 23:10
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Yeah yeah yeah. Have you factored in new clutch, fuel pump, HG, etc etc etc.
So this means Sunday is off?????
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 00:03
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nice hi-jack going on here Loco, quick say something to keep it on track!
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 00:10
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Hey dude. Too upset to even try. Waitin for the 'postpone your trip' confirmation call.
In answer to your bro's question - yeah I have factored that stuff in dude. Don't know if a new HG is needed for the 2JZ though?
I give up. Trade it for a freakin Skyline.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 00:10
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It is not a hijack. If you notice, there is somethig topic related in every post. We are just carrying on two conversations as once.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 00:24
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Hmmmm. Dude, I wouldnt risk anything going wrong with the HG. I mean, if you are eventually going to be putting out 300+ KW, then I would suggest you do get one. Not that expensive if you do it yourself. And better than it getting blown.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 01:25
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my earlier post had nothing to do with the thread topic  and either does this one! mwah ah
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 01:26
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Loco, dude, MOVE to Sydney, get a half-cut, and I will help you stick it in
too easy So hard to decide ay?! All this information.. ahhhhhh
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 02:28
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The head gasket on the 2JZ is metal....leave it alone
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 02:37
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Is it? Oh, ok then. But what is it torqued at?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 02:39
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I don't remember, but I think Toyota realised they made a boo boo with the 7M and rectified it, I haven't heard squat about them having problems blowing head gaskets.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 02:56
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| Quote: |
made a boo boo with the 7M
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Tell me about it. 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 03:16
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I know, I know, understatement of the century
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 04:26
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The 2JZ factory headgasket is very robust... there's no need to touch it unless you're chasing insane power levels. It's certainly a vast improvement over the 7M!
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Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 05:35
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hmmm interesting read
side question: what are the advantages and disadvantages of a single turbo vs. twin turbo?
draven: what had you done to the 1jz other than one bar boost as mods? because your kill count is insanely impressive....
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 05:53
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If you shop around a 2jzgte half cut will be cheaper than $7k!!
Hell you could even run a cheaper 1jzgte being cheaper, as long as its a late model version (newer than your car).
You have a 2jzge....then you extract atmo power
if you want turbo buy a 2jzgte......the NA-T is not original and will have its own limits by once again a non factory fueling system etc.
You could have a gte installed and wind up the boost for less than the NA-T conversion ill say.
Oh yeah metal gaskets rule 
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 06:34
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Today's Trading Post has TT MKIV Supras with comparable mods to what I want goin for between $37,000 and $38,000. They pull around the 250 to 280rwkw mark.
A single turbo conversion to my N/A (Garrett GT 35/40 turbo, intercooler, SS custom exhaust, dump pipe, fitting kit such as oil and water lines, gaskets, EMU and handset + labour) will set me back $8,500 all up (been quoted by RPM Performance Center).
With some fuel mods etc, that set-up will get me well over 300rwkw (been proven a number of times) without messing with the 2JZ internals.
With what the N/A cost me (even with a full kit, new rotors and new pads), I'll still come ahead in overall cost.
Not to mention hardly any car on the road will even get close.
Time to quit discussing - just quietly modify it and hit the road.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Thu, 06 November 2003 12:03
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You will have to decompress the engine if you want that much power, so techniclly you are modifying the internals
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Location:
Adelaide / Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Fri, 07 November 2003 00:18
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Yeah but...... ehhh...... ahhh.... I got nothin.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: N/A to Supercharged MKIV Supra Conversion
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Fri, 07 November 2003 00:24
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rofl.
Mate, just do what you want to do. They are all good options, and if you want to do something, and have the cash to do it (which you do) then go ahead.
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