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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Mon, 10 November 2003 21:41
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guys,
fitting 20v silvertop t/b's onto the 100kw motor, running the factory 100kw ecu....
i know there is some guy in america claiming this is possible, but i want to know whether anyone in australia has tried and verified that this is possible. i have a guy here with some 20v t/b's on a fabricated manifold to suit the small port head. i do not want to set it up on his car and find out it does not work (which i suspect) which then means he will have to buy an aftermarket efi setup as well....
any ideas? anyone tried this setup?
T
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Mon, 10 November 2003 22:58
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You will need an after market computer.
You have to be able to map correctly for the engine so you dont kill it, and you have to be able to control the VVT in the 20v engine.
Craig.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Mon, 10 November 2003 23:15
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i dont know if you read that correctly haggis.
He wants to use the quad throttle bodies off a 20v on a smallport 16V head - which has nothing to do with VVT.
Personally i think it would work, and can't see a reason why not? I mean the 100kW ECU is mapped for that engine, all you are doing is adding more air which it will know about due to the MAP sensor reading the extra air... or so my theor goes. But don't listen to me, i have no experience 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
south of the big smoke
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Mon, 10 November 2003 23:47
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im with karl i wreckon it will work, but how good is another question!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 11 November 2003 02:59
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It'd definately run, i'd just be worried about low down drivability. But if it's a budget racer you won't go down that far. You could probably get optimum top end mixtures with a bit of fuel pressure fiddling. And that water temperature sensor resistor trick.
I've also read that the TCCS has a ability to compensate and retune itself to a fair degree to get cruise and small throttle openings correct.
It may not be perfect, but i'd guess it would run fairly well at WOT. My brothers car AE82 has a 100kw motor running on the TVIS spec running gear, and it screams.
Daniel
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 11 November 2003 03:05
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don't u need to re-allocate the MAP sensor to somewhere else?
I read somewhere on the web that it's hard to get good pressure reading from the quads.
There are 4 holes under the 4 quads, and you have to run them into a container with 4 inlet and one outlet for MAP reading.
i don't know of any other problems tho. 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 11 November 2003 03:16
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jeez toby, i dunno i remember talking with you on this a while ago.
like suggested i reckon you'd be hard pressed to get a good solid signal to the MAP sensor
you've also got the two sensors on the airbox. not sure how you'd cope there, one was inlet temp, the other i'm not sure on - people who've coverted to pods have had issues here. although if you run the whole shebang with the quaddies to a factory box like the 20v does, you might be able to get away with it.
dunno what you'd do with the cold start injector either. block it off i spose, dunno how the computer would cope with it not being there. cold starts might be fun too, no wax pellet thingo in the bottom of the TB's either.
personally i wouldn't go this option without a aftermarket. i think it will *just* work but certain points of drivability will be shitty, and, only solvable via an aftermarket.
my 2c
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 11 November 2003 05:12
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i love some of the translation. sensational. 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 11 November 2003 05:59
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I cant see it working with a MAP computer but if you had a 100KW AFM computer and had a plenum like this or try to use the stock 20V plenum
And not go to crazy with the cams, It would work.
Ben
Ae86 Trueno 4AGE
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 11 November 2003 21:46
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ok,
so no-one knows for sure that it will or will not work....
i'll speak ot the owner and see if he wants to give it a go.
greg - you just remove the cond start injector totally. assume it idles badly on cold days!!
ben - i happen to know who makes that airbox by the way!!!
T
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Wed, 12 November 2003 06:41
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i've been looking at doint the same thing but i think there a few things that will stop it running to the engines full potential
- at full throttle the computer uses preset fuel maps for the given rpm and disregards most of the other inputs like O2 sensor map sensor etc.. thus the computer will probably adjust itself for the different airflow when its not operating at full throttle but when you mash it it wil go back to the setting that it was tuned for back at toyota for the single throttle body.
-keep in mind that only one cylinder is sucking at a time so you woild have to rig a little plenum connecting all the ports together like someone already said.
from what i've read you may be able to get it running with the stock computer but you won't gain much power over the single tb setup.
let me know how it all goes though as i am interested to find outhow it all finishes up
Richard.
i doubt the cold start injector would be a problem in australia..
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Wed, 12 November 2003 23:17
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thanks guys,
i'll see if the owner wants to give it a go
T
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Thu, 13 November 2003 15:48
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im curious to know if it could be done with a small port motor running a big port ECU and map sensored.. the reason being that this combo is quite rich up to and the extra fuel would be ustilised when adapting quad throttles and mary a warmer cam?
any idea's further?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Thu, 13 November 2003 20:05
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yeah simon, remember you'd have to do something with the TVIS sensor (god knows) which may cause u a flat spot or something.
interesting idea though. toby food for thought?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Thu, 13 November 2003 21:29
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well having "read" the jap jinglish translation on the above page, they seem to recomend using the afm ecu etc, as it's easier to richen up the mixture with the afm. similar things can be done with the water temp sender, which has also been mentioned above.
i'll see what the owner wants to do next time he's around
T
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Fri, 14 November 2003 04:26
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You could get it to a fairly decent tune with one of those ITC and SAFC add on computers from APEXi. But they cost a bomb and a full computer is cheaper and better in the long run.
Daniel
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Fri, 14 November 2003 08:31
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This is quoted straight from www.club4ag.com
Individual Throttle Body - 20V 4-throttle on 16V 4A-GE
Another popular topic these days is adapting the individual throttles from the 20V onto the 16V..."Can this be done?" You bet! But there are many obstacles which may hinder your attempt and here's some of them. NO! you will not be able to use the 16V ECU to run the throttle as fuel map requirements are vastly different for the 20'v throttle unit. The lower rpm ranges require much less fuel while in the upper ranges the throttle needs significantly more fuel. Since the whole idea of making precise fuel maps are the key to making the difficult and sensitive 4 throttle to work well, it is not a matter of backyard tuning by simply shifting AFM or Vacuum Sensor signals or shuffling fuel pressures. You must almost always use an aftermarket or re-computed ECU get anywhere near the operation you need...even to match the original spec of the single throttle you tossed in the garbage. Second, since the 20V's idle is controlled not by the TPS and the throttle body, but rather a secondary port called ISCV which leaks idle air in a controlled manner aft of the fully closed throttles. Since the 16V engines never had this, you have to figure out a way to devise a similar tactics through your own ingenious method. The throttle in any case must be fully closed to get idle mixture control on. The manifold will not bolt on to the 16V's intake so an adapter should be used or fabricated. Overall, not many of the private shops have successfully made such setups perform better than what can easily be done with the single throttle, even though almost all of them have succeeded in getting a car to run decently. That said, there are a handful of shops that did make things work wonderfully (all in Japan that I have seen) with the 20V throttle mechanism and kits are available. Be cautioned that they are NOT cheap and greatly exceeds the cost of swapping the entire 20V instead, because it will require a fully programmable ECU and their research results in the form of software. For many of us, a set of side draft carburetor will be a more effective and much cheaper option than grafting the individual throttles on the 16V.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Fri, 14 November 2003 21:42
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charlie,
i had read that before.
i understand htat to make it run properly an aftermarket efi setup would be required.
T
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Sun, 16 November 2003 00:55
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too true.
customer just did not want to spend the $$ on an aftermarket efi setup if he didn't have to - which is perfectly understandable
T
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Sun, 16 November 2003 01:21
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what about just putting a 20v in?
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Sun, 16 November 2003 01:54
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My 2c
Toby, from what i have read and understand from my own tinkering basically what has been said in this thread is fairly accurate. Obviously the AFM is easier to adapt however with some slight modifications (similar to what i have made to my new engine ) then you should be able to get the 100Kw ecu to read from the MAP sensor just as effectively.
the main problem as i see it is that using the TB's it is difficult to get an accurate vacume to the MAP without excessive pulsing from the individual runners, my own mod is to run four lines to a individual vacume chamber, then from there run one line back to the MAP and of course one back to the fuel pressure reg.
other than the MAP pressure i cant see any other reason as to why the 100Kw ecu would not be able to handle using the quads.
something to think about is this ( I havent had to worry too much about this as i am using an aftermarket ecu, plus my quad setup is completely different what you are talking about) you need to make sure that the vacume back from the remote chamber is going to be applicable to that of the MAPs parameters... i personally have guessed that by using the same diameter outlets as is factory to the MAP then im guessing it should balance up to that of the MAP sensors scale anyway.
hope that helps, if you want any more info send me a PM
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Mon, 17 November 2003 05:18
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i like Michaels vacuum chamber device.
has been done a few times by megasquirters, and basically consists of something the size of a fuel filter (or a fuel filter itself!) and possibly a restrictor like a mig tip, or similar. the idea is same as for filtering electrical frequencies. the fuel filter is liek a capacitor, and the mig tip is the resistor that controls the rate of change in the fuel filter.
as i see it, the main problem using the MAP ECU with quads, and no-one has directly mentioned, is that the manifold pressure will be different (probably higher) than when using a single TB. basically this comes down to less restriction in the manifold, meaning that for the same manifold pressure, the quads let more air into the motor, so it may lean out a bit. if you put a plenum like that shiny carbon one, might restrict a little more and get mixture better(bu thats just pissin in the wind  )
is the MAP ecu analog?? if not, and it's digital, why the heck does it need a cold start injector??
Toby, you know you wanna get a Megasquirt heh heh
Cya, Stewart
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Mon, 17 November 2003 10:07
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You can easily fix the fuel loading by doing the resistor mod on the temp sender, but you will need to dyno the car to find the best setting with it. My cousin in nz made an adjustable fuel pressure reg to alter the mix on his stock 20V AE101 and i can tell you it made a huge difference, (you could use this instead of the resistor mod) if you add bigger injectors you could almost adapt to any fuel mixture you want by dyno tuning it and still use the 100Kw ecu
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Mon, 17 November 2003 12:55
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Im not running tvis on my motor, small port motor and big port ecu. no flatspots at all but its rich up top.
I'd like to fit quads and cams and still retain the stock ECu
possible any one?
| Grega wrote on Fri, 14 November 2003 06:05 |
yeah simon, remember you'd have to do something with the TVIS sensor (god knows) which may cause u a flat spot or something.
interesting idea though. toby food for thought?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Mon, 17 November 2003 19:39
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simon i'd recommend a microtech 
seriously as discussed above....it might work
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 18 November 2003 00:20
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i'd have to give it a twirl
besides map sensing isnt needed for idle.. most run without MAP sensored connected,.. well mine does anyway
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Banned user
Location:
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Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 18 November 2003 05:20
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| IRA11Y wrote on Tue, 18 November 2003 15:16 |
thats why its dumping max fuel most of the time
Anything is possible
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you talking to me? there is no tvis sensor! i believe its rich due to the different map's but i could be wrong.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 18 November 2003 05:30
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Weird, because on my AE82 it would die if you pull the rubber tube off the map sensor.
Or do you mean unplugged as in the electrical sense. Then i'm guessing the computer would go limp mode and ignore the map
sensor.
It will also run with the TPS unplugged, but has a rather large off idle flat spot. I found out after calibrating the TPS, left it unplugged, hmm, car seems sluggish. 
Daniel
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 18 November 2003 09:48
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| Quote: |
you talking to me? there is no tvis sensor! i believe its rich due to the different map's but i could be wrong.
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yeah you ! 
no because you said you disconnected the MAP sensor, the ecu reads from the TPS only (in open loop) when you disconnect the MAP as it doesent recieve anything other than atmospheric.
from what ive heard the maps between the two are not "too" different other than the ramp up for the TVIS, you have to remember the cylinder size is the same its just the CR (and intake runner) thats different.
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Tue, 18 November 2003 10:05
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ooops i meant i unplugged the MAP sensor while it was idling and nothing happened... thats not to say i run around all the time with it unplugged!
oops sorry!
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Wed, 19 November 2003 05:39
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haha oh well thats a bit different then
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 20v t/b onto 100kw 4age running 100kw ecu?!
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Wed, 19 November 2003 06:07
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i susspect that the car wouldnt even run properly with the MAP sensor unplugged lol
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