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mr supra
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icon10.gif  Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sat, 24 August 2002 06:01 Go to next message
Here's something that should start all kinds of arguments..

Do Toyota have anything that is as bulletproof as the FJ? I've heard of them running reliably at 9000+rpm with 35psi+ on stock or nearly stock internals! I don't really know much about the toyota 4 cylinder motors, do they have anything that can compete with this?
I know a little about the 1gg's but they are 6's so don't count.

The only ones I know of are the 3TGTE, 3SGTE and 4AGZE or something like that, and even then I have no idea about strengths weeknesses, what breaks what doesn't, turbo sizes, upgradability etc.

feel free to go nuts now... Razz
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Nark
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icon2.gif  Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sat, 24 August 2002 06:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I think you're being fed a lot of bullshit.

The 3S-GTE is much better than an FJ20DET. I'll let others with more know how expand on the reasons though.
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draven
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sat, 24 August 2002 06:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I dont know where you read the fj20det can cope with 35psi.
the 3s-gte is regularly run at 30+psi, but this is most often in racing conditions.
toyota even put a 3s-gte in a supra, and had it cranking out 600+bhp.

and why mention the 1G for potential as a 6 cyl? why not go the 1jz or 2jz.... they can both cope with 450bhp on stock interals, and still last for ages
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rob_RA40
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sat, 24 August 2002 07:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
far out, i cringe every time i read some one say, "they put a 3S-GTE in a supra and it pumps out 700HP"

sorry draven im not having a go at u i just dont like the fact that people mention this race bred 3S like its a factory standard 3S-GTE (and it gets mentioned all the bloody time)

apparently the 6-700hp 3S block is totally different and hardly discernable to a standard toyota 3S-GTE block. i dont even think the 700hp 3S block is even made by toyota

i dont know much about these engines but it really irks me when people describe apples to try and make their description of an orange sound better


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draven
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sat, 24 August 2002 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
?
far as I knew, it was an original block, with porting work done etc. Not that I know much about that particular car, just what I've seen on video.
so it's nothing like the original block?
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biased99
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sat, 24 August 2002 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Come on guys, why not go further and talk about the most bullet-proof engine of all...the mighty 1UZ-FE.

With after-market ECU (or MINES re-programmed stock ECU) these things will easily pull 7500RPMs, and I've heard talk of them being able to withstand 9,000+RPMs stock (small grain of salt there, I think Smile ).

Now THATS an engine.
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Les
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sat, 24 August 2002 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Is that 2sgte the one they put in the TOP SECRET Supra in Japan ?

Sounds pretty bulletproof, but im sure A LOT of $$$ was spent on it !

Ah yess.. that Supra kicks ass !
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mr supra
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sat, 24 August 2002 10:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The FJ20 in question was in an off-road buggy with a custon intake, custom exhaust,motec computer, uncertain about the type of turbo although I know it had an internal wastegate, actually now i think about it I'm pretty sure it was just a rebuilt stock turbo.
I know the guy personally, they ran 25psi for the race and 30 to qualify, and pushed a max of 450hp @ the wheels.
The 35psi was due to a glitch with the waste gate actuation, it was actually running somewhere over 35psi although they don't know what because their boost gauge only ran to 35psi.The head may have been cleaned up a bit but thats about it.
The 1gg doesn't count because it is a 6 and I was talking about 4's, also ruling out the 1UZ although it is bombproof.mmmmmmm 6 bolt mains....

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Nark
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icon3.gif  Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sun, 25 August 2002 00:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The engines in the Pike's Peak car are not 3S-GTEs. They're racing engines based on them. From what I've heard, they're very different.

But I'm not sure if the JTCC Supras use 3S-GTEs or the racing engines...
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draven
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sun, 25 August 2002 02:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
well I wish in the tech specs they wouldn't list them as a 3S-GTE then Razz
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mr supra
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sun, 25 August 2002 03:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
no ones answered the question yet....
c'mon guys, I was expecting crankshaft spec comparisons or rod angle relative to piston speed or something!
Maybe Pi squared over the root of the hypotenuse taking into account the theory of relativity will logically conclude that X toyota motor is going to be better than Y nissan motor? Wink
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ae102_3sgte
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Sun, 25 August 2002 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
How about you put a 3sgte together, properly fuel it
and run till you whoop your buddy's car!

Any engine can be strong, building and fuelling are what will make it live.

FWIW:
I have heard of a guy in ?Finland with a modified ST165 running 10.5 in the 1/4 mile. (addl set injectors, low c/r etc.)
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Nark
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 00:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The fastest FWD in the world (HKS ST202 Celica) uses a 3S-GTE...

Oh yeah, and the WRC cars... 300hp (limited) and 600+Nm of torque!!!
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ae102_3sgte
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 02:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nark, Do you have a link to that ST202?

I would like to see/hear more!
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[mikey]
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 02:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Max,

Fastest FWD in the world is the Papadakis Civic in the US...last I heard it ran 8.12sec 1/4 mile.


The Top Secret supra runs a std 3S block, and whats inside is what makes it last =]
the block itself is damn tough, and thats because of its cast iron nature. the crank used in the top secret car is forged billet steel 2.2L stroker (93mm stroke off the top of my head).

But its also lag heaven.....the turbo doesnt produce usable boost until close to 6000rpm, then hold on until the 9000ish rpm redline.

Minimum of forged pistons is needed for around 400-450hp.

Michael



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Helmann
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 03:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
That HKS celica is actually fastest celica in the world. Not fastest FWD.
Anyway. I have heard that the sr20 and the rb26 are nissan's 2 toughest engines. I believe that the sr20 is based on the fj so the sr is probably tougher than an fj. I know also that sr20 only hold about 25 psi tops with stock internalls before u get serious problems.
I highly doubt an fj engine would do what u said with stock internalls
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Nark
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 04:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I stand corrected. I don't really pay much attention to that sort of stuff, but it was the fastest FWD at a point... I think...

ae102_3sgte, here's an old link about it...
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/7177/hksdragff. html
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barbel
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 05:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message

FJ's are much stronger than Sr's in standard form,

they came in the s12 gazelle's and dr 30 skylines etc, and ran 10-12 psi factory without coolers. what do u think happens when u put a cooler and a bit more fuel through. 12 second datto's and the likes.

i know of a couple guys of the top of my head who pump 18-20 psi through them,

def a tough motor. anyone ever seen pulse racing datto which i think got down to 11 flat on standard internals. this was a few yrs ago,

personally i think they are strong...
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faulksy
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 06:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
i heard that the fj's are uch stronger then the sr's. ive also heard that the sr blocks are prone to warp if too much power is put thru them. dont know if this is true
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mr supra
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 06:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
as far as I know the fj20 is based on whats left of the 3litre quad cam alloy block v8 that nissan was going to use as a formula 1 engine. For whatever reason the formula 1 thing never happened so they used the head pistons and rods, made up a different block and crank and the fj was born.

and before anyone says it I know that 2 fj's doesn't equal 4 litres, I dunno what the go is there.

The sr20 can't carry the revs of the fj without flying to peices.
The crank and rods too I think are made by cosworth and I'm pretty sure they are hyperteutetic pistons (or something like that and I have no idea what a hyperteutetic piston is!)
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[TOYROTA]
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 07:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The SR20DET is a much better overall package than the FJ20ET. If you want something that will be putting out upto and around 450hp, then the SR is definately the choice engine. However if you want to exceed this power output OR run HEAPS of boost, the the FJ is the pick simply because it has a much stronger block than the SR. The reason for this is simple, SR's have a lightweight alloy block, and FJ's have a big fat heavy cast iron job. There are a few other resons why Fj's have higher rpm and power thresholds than their younger SR brothers. The FJ runs individual cam lobes for each valve, whearas the SR has rockers that are quite prone to breakeages. Also the FJ has a shorter stroke and can therefore rev harder. As well as this the FJ has better designed heads which are capable of flowing around 230HP in standard trim opposed to the SR's 219ish. There are many other pros and cons of the two engines but i will be here forever and a day explaining them, and besides, wasnt the original question comparing the FJ against the 3SGTE not the SR!!!?????

André


ps. i'm not a nissan nut which it might sound like, i just know a thing or two about them! Learn from experiences! (mates 9-sec 1200 UTE)
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mr supra
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the original question was actually does toyota have anything better than the fj20, and so far no one has said "YES THIS IS BETTER!!"......the ones that come close are far from stock internally which isn't exactly what I want.
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TCHOON
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Then you probably have your answer through the lack of answers... sort of. Confused

I thought the toughest Nissan was the 300zx v6. There was one running in sports sedans with supposedly close to stock internals..just lotsa boost and cleaned up heads.

Wasn't the Austin-Healey Sprite drag car running a FJ20, and giving Victor Bray a run for his money at some stage ?
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[mikey]
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Well FJ20 non-intercooled runs a standard compression of 7.5:1 also...the 3SGTE runs 8.8:1
so that 1.3 points makes a massive difference...especially in boost tolerance (ie combustion pressures)
Try driving the FJ20 off boost and see how shitty it is =]



The FJ originated from the FJ24, a rally motor in the 240RS S11 Silvia. Naturally aspirated making in excess of 300hp Group B.
FJ is tought just like the 3S because of its cast iron block, doesnt require cylinder sleeves to stop distortion from heat like the SR20.


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TA22-3SGTE
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Mon, 26 August 2002 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OK YES I SAY THE 3SGTE IS A BETTER MOTOR !!!
I have a 3SGTE with stock internals in my TA22 and putting out 260rwkw on 22lbs boost thats about 348hp at the wheels so must be making about 400hp at the flywheel , My last motor with stock internals was running 35lbs boost , I never got around to running it on the dyno but it had heaps more than I have now , At 120kph in overdrive when boost hit 35lbs it would break loose on any type of road , Never raced it because I could not get traction in any gear , The only thing that killed it was detionation as No 2 injector leaned out . When I pulled the motor down the other three pistons were good even all the bearings were like new .

QUESTION ANSWERED !!!!!



Trevor
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fj20
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Tue, 27 August 2002 04:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hi Guys
The FJ20ET and 3SGTE are both very strong and capable 4 cylinders. Just look at all of Australia's Fastest RWD 4's are all FJ's. And the Japanese HKS Celica was the first FWD to get into the 9's was powered by a 3SGTE.
The 3SGTE is a far more modern and refined engine than the tuff old FJ20ET.
But I would not expect either engine would last too long with totally Stock internals, stock ecu etc.. running 35psi of boost. Smile
The 350HP+ FJ20ET Gibson Motorsports Group A DR30 Skyline's were extremely reliable running nearly stock internals. Stock Garrett T03 and Nissan Wastegate at 1.4 BAR with Aftermarket Front Mount Cooler and forged pistons.
The FJ20ET Buggy running 30psi is using a tasty Motec ecu. So I imagine it would be running very nicely indeed.
-Regards Mike
http://www.fj20.com/

[Updated on: Tue, 27 August 2002 23:08]

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mr supra
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Wed, 28 August 2002 08:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Excellent!!

I don't see how the 3sgte is more refined though? I can see ignition differences as that dizzy idea on the fj is fairly old now, but that seems to be it, both twin cam, both 16V (I hope, now that I've said that! Razz ), both blown.

What am I missing on the refinement thing?
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Wed, 28 August 2002 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Its not really fair to compare the fj 20 to a modern engine like the sr or 3s, aferall the fj20 is now nearly 20 years old !!!
and still the choice of many drag racers !!

you'd have to compare it to toyota's 3Tgte or maybe the 1ggte ( at a stretch).

and I think you'll all agree it kicks but in that company !!

Matt
      
mr supra
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Wed, 28 August 2002 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yeah ok..
poor old thing..younger than me though!
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Nark
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icon2.gif  Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Wed, 28 August 2002 23:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mr supra wrote on Wed, 28 August 2002 6:36 PM

I don't see how the 3sgte is more refined though?


Just drive them and you'll agree...
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Alainve
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Fri, 30 August 2002 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
if you are comparing by age then the Toyota equivalent is the 3TGTE which is a tuff old beast but is lacking 200cc when compared to an FJ20 but is similarly capable of making bulk power without being very smooth when doing it. One of my friends has a Datto 1600 with an FJ in it all it had was a T3 and an intercooler + EMS management and it pulled a 350hp at the wheels on stock internals, and ive seen a 3TGTE do it before with similar mods, but i don't know how long the 3T lasts at that output but an FJ will do it all day.
so thats my 2 centson this subject. Confused
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mr supra
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Re: Toyota ??? Vs Nissan FJ20 Turbo Fri, 30 August 2002 09:05 Go to previous message
I think I'm going to have to conclude that the fj is the superior motor...although I have to concede that the 3sgte sounds like a damn tuff motor. Everyone seems to agree that the fj is a little more bulletproof though.

Sorry..almost everyone Cool
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