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I Supported Toymods
Location:
perth
Registered:
September 2002
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 04:21
 
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What if you're entering the corner at 180km/h?
What's wrong with using the brake?!
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On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 04:25
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sounds like a good way to prematurely wear out your clutch and tyres and gearbox. i'd stick with trail braking
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 04:25
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If you dump the clutch and accelerate, you will not slow down and it will not shift weight to the front. You will understeer into the nearest immovable object. 
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
perth
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 04:30
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the idea is to induce fun oversteer by entering the corner slightly too fast and using the clutch to act as a breaking force but simultaneously prepare the engine for responsive high rpm!
Alternatives are
1. left foot breaking : not very effective for small tight corners and bogs engine down a bit at lower speed corners.
2. coming off throttle : to induce a little oversteer, but will inevitably have understeer and doesn't kick the back out as far
3. handbrake : fun at very low speeds, probably a little crazy for 50-70km/hr corners
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On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 04:30
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i thought this also, but i interpreted his sentence to mean "dump clutch into 2nd, use engine braking to decelerate, corner with weight shifted towards front from said deceleration, accelerate out of corner once able to"
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
perth
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 04:33
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yeh sorry if i made it ambiguous.
Pop the clutch and use it for engine breaking until oversteer is achieved, then hit the throttle hard.
The time difference between dropping clutch and punching the throttle is usually about 1 second
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On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 04:36
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for low speed corners you'll probably find just understeering thru it as fast as you can is the quickest way, maintain a higher overall speed and higher exit speed. liftoff oversteer is best for modulating your angle on long fast sweepers. i've never found handbrake to be useful anywhere but on gravel or motorkhana
it really depends what sort of "cornering" you're talking about; wether its driving like a dickhead and squealing your tyres cos you can (copbait) or actual organised off-street racing that requires a day license or cams license of some kind
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
perth
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 04:44
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easy mate, im just discussing alternative means of getting a FWD car sideways.
Im totally aware of controlled understeer to maximize the speed around a corner but theres a lot of fun to be had late a night when there are no cars around
Some of us cant afford a track day every month. . .
So im assuming no one has tried this technique?
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On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 05:05
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true, just don't whinge when you get sprung 
i would have thought getting the arse out in a fwd car would slow overall cornering times, if you're trying to achieve the fastest in-out possible. there's a difference between exceeding the grip limit of the rear tyres in a driving line to make the car go around the corner in the most efficient way possible, and a "powerslide"
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 05:08
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If you want the tail out, just use the handbrake.
I've done that on 90km/h corners, and I drive a FWD maybe twice a year.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 05:09
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If you matched revs when downshifting and used left foot braking or even trail braking, hell why not throw in a scando flick while you're at it you should be able to get the tail end out of a FWD car faily easily and with a lot more control and less stress on your car then the technique you have described. A bit more skill involved, a bit more control achieved (if done well) and your car might live a little longer. Also leaving your handbrake very slightly on (so it just trails) will help induce oversteer, but will also kill your rear brakes.
As for not affording a track day every month, but I'm assuming you can afford the odd ticket and/or loss of licence when you do get caught? What about the lawsuit or hassles when you do lose it and kill or injure some poor drunken sod who decided to go for a walk in the middle of the road in the dark wearing all black?
Sorry, I'm sure we all do silly things on the road, but I really think too many people think "track days are so expensive, only professional or rich people can go for them, the rest of us have to drift on the roads". Most of the events I do cost me less than $50 for the day... And I can go flat out and not worry about some granny crossing the road with her shopping trolley around the next corner, or an oncoming car, or a police cruiser waiting behind the next tree...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 06:54
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dumping the clutch and causing compression lock or whatever u like to call it will cause it to understeer in a front wheel drive. (imagine u have 100% front brake bias, and slam on the brakes, what will happen, car will understeer, just the same as if u had 100% rear bias, jamming the breaks causes the back to come out.
scando flick is a much better and more doable option
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 08:28
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Maybe just buy a RWD?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 09:01
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how do you do the scando flick?
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 09:18
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| crayz legz wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 19:01 |
how do you do the scando flick?
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If you have to ask that, then you prolly shouldn't try it...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sutho/Hills NSW
Registered:
September 2002
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 09:44
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WHAT ARE YOU FUCKING NUTS?!
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
perth
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 09:44
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man u guys are crazy. . haha . . i was just wondering if anyone else had tried it. It doesn't mean i do it every fricken corner during school hours or something
I use heel&toe for rev matching etc all the time. Just looking at intersting alternatives to the usual methods of getting car sideways. Usually those others require generally more speed or a little bit of craziness. . .btw please describe to me where on earth you'd pull the handbrake up at 90km/h thats bs. . .
So trail braking is leaving hand brake up just a bit? Thats an intersting concept hey. Cheers for that
And about track days only costing $50, that cant be entirely accurate when u include tyre wear etc due to higher speed cornering etc. Those of us who do the odd tail hanger at 3am cant afford a fine, $50, or new tyres, but we do it anyway 
Why the fuck is everyone so self righteous on the internet, no one seems to friendly participate in discussions these days!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 10:05
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bayka try this one i know that works it prolly has a name but anyway
come into corner a lil hot
brake a bit to take most of the speed off u dont really wanna end up in someones pool if ur goin to fast
being to turn and as u do dump the clutch u will notice that the back will wanna slide out causeing some oversteer
put ur foot back down and corect feel it flick back and keep goin
have done this plenty of times in my fully stock ae82 and beaten a few skylines along VERY windy rds i guess the skylines brake to much and weigh to much in comparison
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 10:24
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| bayka wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 19:44 |
btw please describe to me where on earth you'd pull the handbrake up at 90km/h thats bs. . .
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It was a 270 degree offramp. 80 zone on to a 70 zone, but there is quite a bit of room...
This was in a 2003 rental Corolla... hehe
That's about all I'll say before I incriminate myself even more (or encourage others to try it).
Oh, and Shraka, the scandinavian flick isn't so bad. I've done it plenty of times on dirt. It's a hell of a lot of fun (in the brown pants sort of way). I don't have the guts to do it on tarmac though.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 10:32
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dood , you say you've tried this b4 ,so tell us if it worked.sounds like you,d need a lot of clutch control so as not to let the front end plough ,yet still transfer weight forward.I would guess a scando would be much more effective as the first stage lets you wipe off a shit load of speed in a thrown and controled slide in under brakes the oposite direction to the on coming turn then slingshoted into the turn under power to the angle of youre choice.there are variations as to how to bring on the initial slide,but there is only one non compromise rule,
COMMIT... try it half arsed and you'll pay .did it the other night in a mates car, chatting while driving ,went at it halfe arsed and gave him some unwanted posetive camber on one side thanx to a gutter.doods were doing them in the 60's and are still doing it in WRC today and allthough i've seen fuck all drift , i'd bet my arse they use it to.just some food for thought.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 10:53
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| Quote: |
So trail braking is leaving hand brake up just a bit? Thats an intersting concept hey. Cheers for that
And about track days only costing $50, that cant be entirely accurate when u include tyre wear etc due to higher speed cornering etc. Those of us who do the odd tail hanger at 3am cant afford a fine, $50, or new tyres, but we do it anyway
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No, trail braking is actually braking till quite late into the corner, same theory as what you're doing except using the brakes and not the engine braking. Generally under normal braking it is best to finish braking before the corner so as not to unsettle the car through the corner. With trail braking you use the brakes to unsettle the car through the corner, generally causing the car to tail out. Very effective, but you generally need a fair bit of speed (or a very tight corner) to do it well.
As for track days, there's a lot more to "track" than zooming around a track at 180km/h, in fact virtually all the "track days" I take part in are at much lower speeds. Ever heard of motorkhanas, khanacrosses, autocrosses, hill climbs etc? They're all relatively low speed and relatively cheap "driving fun" you can have. And besides, pulling skids on the streets still wears your tyres out anyway...
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On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 22:45
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| demuire wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 20:53 |
With trail braking you use the brakes to unsettle the car through the corner, generally causing the car to tail out. Very effective, but you generally need a fair bit of speed (or a very tight corner) to do it well.
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and it's scary as FUCK when you manage to lock up the fronts and get the arse slightly out at the same time, at decent speed heading towards the gutter. and a good way to chew up your front tyres fast, but loads of fun  its actually quite amazing at how fast you can get a fwd car to go around corners when trail braking
i left foot trail brake, which can be quite dangerous when you run out of revs and instinctively go for the clutch with your left foot, oops
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Tue, 22 June 2004 22:55
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Heh, at least with trail braking if you do lock up the front wheels you can get off the brakes and still continue through the corner "under power"... with engine braking you'd have to get on the clutch and coast through the rest of the corner which can be a bit dodgy...
And haha, yes left foot braking can be funny (as an afterthought) when you get your clutch and brake mixed up I've just about sent myself through the windscreen quite a few times now, and I still do it occasionally... Must practice more!
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Wed, 23 June 2004 01:50
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hahaha god im glad none of you race cars with me! you all scare me!nothing like turning in at 140km\h and someone comes straight at you door.
fwd is all about wieght transfer. trail brake use left foot on brake and right on throttle and feed throttle and brake. i suppose i will get around to writing a performance fwd book i should have the time soon. best thing to remmeber is in a fwd the throttle is your freind! you want to keep everything smoother not pop the clutch or jam the brakes etc.
lol
mick
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Wed, 23 June 2004 02:01
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kingmick: heh, I don't think bayka is particularly interested in going round at the fastest possible speed, I think he's more interested in getting sideways
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you want to keep everything smoother not pop the clutch or jam the brakes etc.
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that would apply to all cars, fwd, rwd, awd... That's why quick laps always seem slow and boring...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Wed, 23 June 2004 02:06
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| kingmick wrote on Wed, 23 June 2004 11:50 |
hahaha god im glad none of you race cars with me! you all scare me!nothing like turning in at 140km\h and someone comes straight at you door.
fwd is all about wieght transfer. trail brake use left foot on brake and right on throttle and feed throttle and brake. i suppose i will get around to writing a performance fwd book i should have the time soon. best thing to remmeber is in a fwd the throttle is your freind! you want to keep everything smoother not pop the clutch or jam the brakes etc.
lol
mick
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takes alot of skill to be able to go fast in a fwd. although it is less dangerous than driving on the edge in a RWD. i got good at fwd driving, so i bought a faster rwd. once i get good at that, ill prob get an awd
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
perth
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Wed, 23 June 2004 03:42
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LOL Thanks guys, this is much more like it
demuire : all those hill climbs and stuff sound wiked, but is there anywhere in perth that does that sort of thing?
shit id love to get into it
about trail braking : im gona give it a go soon, i suppose ive already cheated a bit with a rear sway bar, if i go into a corner a bit fast and come off the throttle for a second, weight shifts anyway and the back steps out a bit. (man i love sway bars)
The only problem i see with left foot braking and trail braking is that the engine will inevitably by a little bogged down when u wanna throttle. . .unless you can jab the clutch. .. maybe reverse heel toe?? *shudder*
So in summary the BAYKA TECHNIQUE is superior for getting a FWD car stupidly sideways, and the fronts smoking up while sideways round a corner. . .LOL
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Wed, 23 June 2004 03:50
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Bayka: I have no idea to tell you the truth. Check out http://www.cams.com.au/content.asp?PageID=Clubs and contact one of the clubs there, I'm sure they'd be happy to point you in the right direction. Also note that not all clubs are "single manufacture" oriented, for instance I drive a Toyota and I'm in the Holding Sporting Car Club...
Left foot braking and trail braking aren't necessarily the same thing, you can trail brake with your right foot too. And yes when you left foot brake the brakes do work against the engine, but the idea is that you can keep on the throttle and therefore be hopefully a little quicker. Generally with left foot braking you wouldn't brake so hard as to bog your engine down, just enough to transfer the weight forward. Since you've experienced lift-off oversteer I'm sure you know it doesn't take too much to unsettle the tail, especially with a big rear swaybar.
And haha, I don't know about the BAYKA TECHNIQUE being superior, but I have no doubt that it would work...
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Wed, 23 June 2004 04:34
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Scandinavian flicks aren't so bad, on dirt they are dead easy, on tarmac they aren't such a good idea - I would say they are very insane especially at high speed. Tyres perform very differently when sliding on tarmac compared to how they slide on dirt.
Left foot braking doesn't bog the engine down, ideally you should corner at a speed that has a fairly high slip angle, then it's just a matter of using the left foot (gently) to brake the rears - whilst the front still go because you are mashing the throttle - and cause the rears to gain a greater slip angle than the fronts (ie go sideways).
Left foot braking is most beneficial on turbo cars because it allows the engine to stay on high boost. It can be of benefit to NA cars as well moreso in some situations than others.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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KrikEy!
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Wed, 23 June 2004 05:14
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I don't wanna post just to rip shreds off you Bayka - but CHRIST!! Please install a flashing light on your roof, to warn other motorists that you're driving!!! That FWD downshift-oversteer idea is completely arse-about. It'll push the nose of the car heller-wide AND unsettle everything aswell.
Trail braking is all about weight transfer. -Namely keeping the front tyres loaded up with dynamic weight as you turn-in, so you can get that nose buried into the tarmac and start changing direction. There's a very fine art to balancing the car's rotation against the rear-end's grip as you turn-in, while avoiding locked wheels and slides. Over-do it and you'll get bucketloads of oversteer, or even spin. Under-do it and you'll lock the inside-front wheel and/or understeer miles wide of the apex. All that's before you even get near the middle of the corner!
May I suggest a performance driving course or 5 ?
Seriously though dude - Go to the Australian GP next year, and stand about halfway ->3/4 through a braking zone, so that you can see the apex and most of the exit. Closer to the track is better. Watch M.Schumi come off the brakes as he turns-in (Turn 9 is excellent for this) and just trucks that front-end into the apex like it's on rails. He doesn't get all the way off the brakes until he's back on the throttle!! -now watch how everyone else tackles the turn-in -> apex. Raikonnen is as good, but is a bit messy gathering it up through the apex, losing exit speed. Everyone else looks like amatuers once you've witnessed this first hand.
-M.Schumi's first flying lap in the 1st praccy session this year would have netted him a top-6 qualifying spot. On a dirty Melbourne street-track no-less!!!!!!
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: KrikEy!
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Wed, 23 June 2004 05:37
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| Quote: |
Alternatives are
1. left foot breaking : not very effective for small tight corners and bogs engine down a bit at lower speed corners.
2. coming off throttle : to induce a little oversteer, but will inevitably have understeer and doesn't kick the back out as far
3. handbrake : fun at very low speeds, probably a little crazy for 50-70km/hr corners
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Eh?? All works for me at 100Kph+ dirt,tarmac, snow mud... bring it on  Yes I'm Nuts....
| Quote: |
hahaha god im glad none of you race cars with me! you all scare me!nothing like turning in at 140km\h and someone comes straight at you door.
fwd is all about wieght transfer. trail brake use left foot on brake and right on throttle and feed throttle and brake. i suppose i will get around to writing a performance fwd book i should have the time soon. best thing to remmeber is in a fwd the throttle is your freind! you want to keep everything smoother not pop the clutch or jam the brakes etc.
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Someone I can relate to  Can I be co-writer?
disagree with 1. short hard stab or the H/brake is another option.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Wed, 23 June 2004 05:50
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st184 - you are forgetting one thing of course, F1 cars are completely and utterly different to fwd road cars
(BIG ASS HIJACK)
As for Schumacher being so damn 'good', why shouldn't he be? He's been in the game for 14 years, knows every track like the back of his hand, and has been the lead driver of the same team for about, 7 or 8 years now???
As for all the other drivers 'looking like amateurs' - pfft - what a load of twaddle, Schumacher is only good at doing the same thing over and over again...plus what's he got to worry about? Hrm, no clutch, no shifting to worry about, no brake balance to worry about (traction control sorts that out), no rev limiter to worry about.
Big deal...???
Want to see another fantastic driving moment in Formula 1? Try watching Montoya cane everyone on cold tyres...(this sometimes wears his tyres a bit, but it's fun to watch none the less)
(/BIG ASS HIJACK)
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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WELL:
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Wed, 23 June 2004 06:20
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Traction control DOESN'T sort the brake balance in F1 - You know how everyone makes a kerfuffle about who does and doesn't left-foot brake? It's because the talented dudes feather the throttle on the way into the apex, to effectively trim the brake balance forward and back as they need it, while trail braking.
The F1 bit is meant to be seperate from the trail-braking description. It's just the best place I can think of to watch truly masterful trail-braking in action. As for Schumi doing the same thing over and over again? He does that to a degree in the DRY because He can. i.e. He's found the quickest way 'round, and he knows how to repeat that ideal lap, even as the car changes beneath him (tyres going off, fuel load changing etc.). Did you see Monaco last month? He busted out 3 lap records in a row just before his pitstop - each faster by the amount of time you gain burning a lap's fuel load This comment leads me to believe you've never seen M.S. DOMINATE wet races, which he does almost every time it rains. He changes his lines & braking points every lap when there's varying grip - always going faster than anyone else on the same tyres. Often going faster than people with better tyres than him!
Get your backside to Albert Park next year to watch in person, standing just up from the turn-in point on the outside of the track. You'll see what I'm talking about then, as the T.V. disguises all the speed and subtleties.
-Oh yeah, I'm a big fan of Montoya too, but the Michelins are the key to his blistering pace on fresh rubber - they have a soft outer shell which lasts 2-4 laps, before graining up and falling off. Gotta luv watchin a guy with balls as big as Montoya's though
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Wed, 23 June 2004 06:37
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(hijack again)
Traction control does however apply brakes as well as throttle control in order to prevent tyres slipping. The thing with Montoya on his cold tyres is he is indiscriminate as to who he is dominating, be it bridgestone or michelin, look at how quick he is compared to everyone else just when they restart after a full course yellow flag etc.
Good point about Schuey in the wet, he has put in some good efforts there...can't really recall many of them though as these days I tend to switch off as soon as he's in the lead
(/hijack again)
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
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Wed, 23 June 2004 07:07
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I don't want to hijack this anymore, I haven't kept up with formula 1 much these days I still think you are over-rating Schuey, but I don't want to get into some big debate over who is the greatest driver in history.
On topic ->
Trail braking is the stuff.
If you want big slides and ruined mechanics, use Bayka's tactics
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Harsh but interesting FWD cornering technique??
