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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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 GZE throttle body
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Thu, 12 August 2004 10:27
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has anyone put a bigger throttle body on the 4AGZE? as anyone who has done a GE to ZE conversion, You will notice the throttle body is tiny compared to the GE, now, I am getting the down pipe at the throttle body machined out slightly about 3 mm all round.., and fit a GE throttle body (fits perfectly), same TPS switch and all..advantage being the GE body at its smallest point is around 56mm, and the ZE body is 47mm..has anyone done this or thought about it, I should be putting it all together next week or so. and as is, run 104kw (AE86) with trd coated extractors, 2.25" mandrel ex, 420x240 FMIC, bypassed ABV, (max 9.44psi)..i will dyno it to see any difference
mat
[Updated on: Thu, 12 August 2004 10:29]
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Thu, 12 August 2004 10:43
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you'll on the gze set-up the pissy pipe from the intercooler into the inlet manifold is probably more a restriction than the throttle body itself.
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Thu, 12 August 2004 22:09
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There are 3 major points of restriction that I've identified on the ZE - First the inlet pipe, then the supercharger outlet pipe and then inlet manifold.
I'm working on fixing all of them, but, I keep loosing focus (might try to get back to it this weekend...)
Here's the manifold (which also eliminates the inlet pipe):
Here's the replacement outlet pipe:
And the new TB (3S-GTE):
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Thu, 12 August 2004 22:53
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much better having the inlet air come in at the end of the plenum. whats it weigh? looks bloody heavy which means it will heat soak really badly. i use a 75mm on my 4agt3 you really only need a 60mm or so for a gze as it can only make max 200hp or so.
mick
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Thu, 12 August 2004 23:03
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| kingmick wrote on Fri, 13 August 2004 08:53 |
much better having the inlet air come in at the end of the plenum.
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Yeah I agree! Who cares about equal amounts of, air, air pressure and turbulence getting to each chamber. I mean pistons are cheap, so it doesn't matter if you keep popping off the ring lands because of one chamber running to lean.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 00:01
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| kingmick wrote on Fri, 13 August 2004 08:53 |
looks bloody heavy which means it will heat soak really badly.
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Why on earth would the weight make any difference to the heat soak characteristics? The only difference the thermal mass will make is to the speed the heat changes. It won't get any hotter or colder than an aluminium version.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 00:17
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My 4AGTE runs the larger 4AGE throttle body, about 5 years ago was the first 4AGZE I saw where the guy had fitted a larger throttle body, his claim was with no other changes apart from the larger throttle body he gained about 7 or 8 kw at the wheels on the dyno (no idea how accurate this claim was??).
But as mentioned above there are many other restrictions in ZE form to overcome along with the throttle body.
Let us know how you guys go with your mods.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 01:39
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i mean once it is heat soaked, it will take a long time to get rid of the heat! sorry thought it was a basic knowledge thing so didnt think it needed explaining or to be written correctly!lol
sometimes i wonder!
mick
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 01:49
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On the other hand, it will take longer to get up to heat, so it won't heat soak as easily. An aluminium one will cool down faster, but, as it won't resist heating up, it will reach a higher maximum temperature than my mild steel one.
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 02:45
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my thought was that the intake befor the S/C if it came in a little easier, it would make a difference with the efficiancy, as Norbie said, there is about 420cfm at full nosie 7000rpm going through 47mm? may not make a differnece in the lower gears, but on a dyno full stick in 4th, it's up in the high rpm for a good while pumping out all the air..well thats what i was thinking, with all the points taken care of, it would be like putting a nice mandrel system in place of an agricultural pressbent stocker!
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 03:05
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donsnt take much longer,when the engine is up to temp the inlet will be close behind.hence why all the race ones are steel!lol. the only reason people make them out of steel is they dont have access to a tig. Ben what works on paper dosnt always work in the real world!thats why we have test days for our race cars because the isnt a person in the world that can work things out with a pen and paper and get it right everytime as there are to many variables. out of the 200 or so race and custom ones ive built there has never been or never will be a steel one as they dont work aswell. but that said id rather see someone make one out of steel and have a go, over buying one, as they learn more.
mick
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 04:04
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3SGE (st162 oz delivered i think)is approx 4-5mm bigger and is a direct bolt onto the gze inlet just needs to be match ported to gain full use of it.
does away with the idle control valve
ithe pic isnt the best but you get the idea on pipe differences
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 04:12
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make sure you dont run the cooler pipes like that! go either side of the engine or both to one side.
mick
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 04:12
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kingmick - Um - I have access to a TIG, and I can weld aluminium with my oxy. I'll admit I used steel mainy because it's easier to work with though (and a lot cheaper).
I find you motorsport analogy intersting, in my experience from rallying, most people do something one way because "the fast guys do it that way", they then find a reason to rationalise it logically.
I'll admit that the manifold and the piping is a lot heavier than I'd like, and, I wouldn't mind going to aluminium for pure weight savings.
I've seen a lot of "professional" cars with stainless intercooler pipes. I've also seen a lot with aluminium pipes, stainless has lower heat dissipation than mild steel, aluminium has higher - Which of these people are wrong?
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 04:46
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the only reason they used stainless is because up until 12 months ago it was very hard and expensive to get alloy mandrel bends. i now get them done most of the time in one peice as a mate bought a $200k + alloy mandrel bending machine.the people using stainless are not wrong they just cheap out or dont have access to the alloy bends or donuts(donuts are expensive and dont always look the part). stainless bends can be bought all over australia, half the time from you local engineering shop.
most of the race teams that copy are hobby racers or non professional teams that racing is not what there main buisiness is. pro teams copy if they can see its a great idea and there is no need to reenvent the wheel. when our race engine cost from $80k-$120k there is limited amount of development that can be done with the time and money that is left over.
hope that helps.
mick
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 14:25
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the intercooler piping on my car is all stainless due mostly to the ease of working and it looks damn good too. there is nothing wrong with running the intercooler piping over the engine its almost the shortest route to go, and thats the direction the factory outlet and inlet point. if it were aluminium would be a different story since it has i higher thermal conductivity and without insulation would absorb then transfer heat much faster into the charge air. stainless is a better heat insulator so where u run it is not so critical in a high performance engine.
either way the speed with which air is passing thru the pipes material choice is merely a consideration of ease, wieght and bling
Ben- alloy welding with an oxy? dude thats old skool i hate to think of the chemicals in those fluxes. nasty is all ill say 
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 13 August 2004 23:50
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you would have to be kidding me right. i dare you to run the engine up on a dyno or go for a drive then put your hand on the underside of the intercooler piping, then imagine the inside wall of that pipe when the only thing that cools it is the air thats come out of the intercooler, which means its cooling the inside by transfering its heat to the cooled air! dont mean to be rude but you will never ever see the intercooler piping running over exhaust in a race or proper high performance car intercooler setup, if it did i would show you the person that always runs secound etc. in a race setup you even give the cooler pipes etc a second thermal barrier by wraping and or thermal coating. the colder the charge the more power you make,
by getting a colder charge etc for free it means you can get more power reliably with out having to raise the rev as high to make it which means thre is extra power there for the taking if needed. we have made over 1100hp at the wheels from 2.3litre twin turbo v6 but thats at 11 000 rpm, at this revs and above an
engine will have a very limited life.the above engine cost well over the $100k to develope over three years and has to be stripped or at the very least the sump of and check the bearings etc after a race meeting or ten or so hard dyno runs. hosepower isnt that hard to get its keeping the engines together and the expense. lol we must have scared the summernats guys they have now restricted revs to 7500rpm for all engines the mongrels so that means a small capacity engine can no longer compete with a fair go against V8 turbo engines. lol still makes much more than 700hp at 7500rpm we just have to add more boost, but it puts turbo engines on the edge with mega boost as you only need a hicup with fueling etc to lunch an engine.dyno shootouts arnt my cup of tea as im a circuit racer, but its amazing to hear and feel an engine thats at its raged edge!. lol hope you guys find this intresting , i was bored down in the garage waiting for the carbonfibre to go off in front of the heater!
mick
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Sat, 14 August 2004 03:01
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kingmick, i dont mean to be rude. but are you real rich or happen to have really good sponsors?
you always seem to mention very large $$ sums with all these engines and projects you have or work on.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Sat, 14 August 2004 03:32
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i dont get offended easy!lol i tell because i like sharing what has cost a huge amount for me to learn.both in time and money.it takes wins and experiance to get the jobs we do.
we sponsor our own car{through the workshop and the parts buisness and the other i run has 200k sponsorship a year. which isnt close to being what is needed!we spend $12k a meeting on tyres,fuel,accomodation and our transporter(same as a V8 supercar transporter), rebuilding the car took $70k before this season. that is if we dont break things which is rare. two races ago we snapped a rocker and it seized the dry sump pump, it lunched a roller cam and followers so there was $2500 down the drain plus the time to fix it. racing at high end is big big money. you have to remmeber we are about 2.5 secounds quicker than a V8 supercar and thats on a track like oran or eastern on bathurst it would be like a stock commodore to a ferrari. the last time we raced at bathurst was 12 years ago and carling did 320km\h down the straight and the horsepower has gone up by atleast 100hp since then so we would be close to 350-360 now but were not the king of the mountian and plus with a flat undertray the dip 3/4 down the straight would be very dangerous, hence why we havnt been to bathurst in 12 years. with a flat bottom we would only have to lift the front 10 inches and we would be Mark Webbering into the trees!.
explained?
mick
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Sat, 14 August 2004 03:36
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as a note to above! one thing that has always made me laugh, is that we are faster and one of the budgets is $200k for a year and mark skaife's steering wheel cost $125k. makes you wonder.
mick
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Sat, 14 August 2004 10:47
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nice to hear the technical expeience you have but in reality thats the only way the IC pipes can run efectively on a FWD GZE with front mount cooler without custom inlet and plennum.
works better than a top mout is all i can say.  . i know this is an argument i cant win. Kingmick has too much cash for me to argue   . i just dont have tha space in a tiny engine bay.
btw. the inlet pipe into the plennum runs cool-cold after a good high speed run whereas the other i dare not touch.
all depends on airflow and heatsoak
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Sat, 14 August 2004 11:38
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| kingmick wrote on Sat, 14 August 2004 13:36 |
as a note to above! one thing that has always made me laugh, is that we are faster and one of the budgets is $200k for a year and mark skaife's steering wheel cost $125k. makes you wonder.
mick
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cool..
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Sun, 15 August 2004 03:32
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| kingmick wrote on Sun, 15 August 2004 11:15 |
Alainve no it isnt!with a rolla you can either run them both over the gearbox or inlet over gearbox and outlet from charger down the front of the engine{water outlet side
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i did say using stock supercharger outlet and inlet into plennum.  they point over the cam covers.
alloy is not the easiest material to work.it is the softest material to work, big difference there.
anyway this was a thread on Throttle bodies. i was just trying to show the difference in pipework required to bolt a 3SGE item onto a GZE.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Sun, 15 August 2004 04:44
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lmao. thats why you use elbows, im confused easyer because its hard? stainless is harder to cut,shape and polish and you still use a tig for both. im sure people wont mind a bit of abbed reading for there money!
mick
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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 Re: GZE throttle body
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Sun, 15 August 2004 21:57
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the only difference i have felt, is it seems to get a little more top end, befor it kinda dropped off towards 7, and i havent' adjusted my cable, so it can stil open another 3mm-4mm, so i think it was a good investment, i machined the down pipe right out, so it's the same diameter as the throttle body looks very trick! thanks for youe help guys 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Sun, 15 August 2004 22:12
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| kingmick wrote on Sun, 15 August 2004 14:44 |
lmao. thats why you use elbows, im confused easyer because its hard? stainless is harder to cut,shape and polish and you still use a tig for both. im sure people wont mind a bit of abbed reading for there money!
mick
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Ill post a picture of the setup that kingmick is talking about either later today, or tomorrow.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Sun, 15 August 2004 22:52
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| Alainve wrote on Sat, 14 August 2004 00:25 |
Ben- alloy welding with an oxy? dude thats old skool i hate to think of the chemicals in those fluxes. nasty is all ill say
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A good respirator was one of the first things I bought after I tried it the first time..
I've still got to get a decent mask to avoid the orange flare when the flux burns.. http://www.tinmantech.com/html/tm2000.html
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Tue, 17 August 2004 01:33
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Kingmick- do you actually do any of the fabrication work? if you did youd know stainless is easier to work/weld. or do you throw your budget at other people to do it?
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Tue, 17 August 2004 08:39
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god kids make me laugh! i actually build race cars from scratch. not much bolt on stuff and its all in house! sportsedans you have to start with nothing so its a big job. we make the chassis,carbon fibre bodies, carbon floor, carbon inner panels, carbon intake trumpets(all vac and temped),uprights,swingarms,radiators,intercoolers, T7 wheel centres,wheel nuts,engines, etc etc the only thing we bolt on are transaxle etc.we have mills,lathes,plasma cutter,3 tigs,3 migs etc etc. as im a professional crew chief{prob only 100-150 pro chiefs in the country or there abouts) id need to be able to do everthing that is needed from cleaning the car to rebuilding a car overnight that has hit the wall and ripped the diff out of the car and smashed the frontend.
hahah so in answer to your question yes i do. stainless is only easyer if you dont know how to weld, bit like saying easyer driving a mini bus than a coach. only easyer if you dont know how to do it! haha, can you tig two coke can sheets together!
that why people that dont know dont worry me as race and performance engine and cars are what i do every day for a living.
imagine a accountant or doctor or car dealer telling the engineer how to build the mooney mooney bridge, they would look pretty stupid dont you think:)
mick
[Updated on: Tue, 17 August 2004 09:57]
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Tue, 17 August 2004 08:48
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hahaha sorry couldnt resist! im still laughing now.dont take the above to heart Alainve, its better to find out what someone does, than it is to tell them what they do.
mick
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Tue, 17 August 2004 10:26
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what started as a topic on throttle bodies, has come down to a battle of 'Kingmick's' ego, yeh it's funny and all but as you said, thier kids, now i like learning from mistakes, it makes more sense to see what happens if you stuff up, etc, thats what half the fun of modifying a car is, give it a rest Mr King pro chief, i bet your old enough to be alainve's dad and you have much more experience (obviously) in this field. Let him find out whats best for him, you learn alot more that way.
Mat
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Tue, 17 August 2004 14:30
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Kingmick- i did have to ask the question since theres soo many Retards around forums that think they know everything (but dont).
good to hear your one of the good guys that actually knows their shit (ego aside ). i am actually a boilermaker and do know the ins and outs of fabrication using Alloy, Steel and stainless. true this is my first engine conversion but i would only do it slightly differently if i were to do it again. but definately use stainless again due to the fact that Allow mandrel bending is still very expensive and custom 1 peice bending is not available locally in the newcastle area.
ps. if u need another fabricator anytime soon let me know
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Thu, 19 August 2004 23:47
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Alainve no prob at all. sorry to take so long to get back to you my phone lines have been down at home for 2 days now so no access to net. i will give you a yell if i need another fabricator. ill get you alloy bends if you like as i get them cheaper than stainless ones, thats to you so. please no one else pm me and ask.
mick
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GZE throttle body
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Fri, 20 August 2004 00:01
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Mick - Almost sorry to bring this up now everybody is playing nice, but, you said at the beginning that my manifold would have been better if the inlet was at the end, why is that?
I would have thought that having the inlet pipe as close as possible to an equal distance from all the inlet runners would have been the best way to do it.
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