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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Tue, 04 January 2005 00:52
 
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 08:45 |
Effective ratio (wheel rate), sprung/unsprung weight differences, bushing condition, f/rear weight distribution, geometry of front and rear suspension, family/sports car, roll centre differences, overall weight, two/four doors, roll centre changes with suspension movement, CoG
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Same, same, all new, approx same, same, same same same same same.
They run the same everything.
Cressida weighs in 100kg(ish) heavier, and yes, the CoG on the family would be higher.
They run same suspension, same brakes (almost, supra's are heavier), etc etc.
The MX73 is basically a 4 door MA61.
The MASSIVE difference in handling is phenomenal.
And we just can't explain it.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Tue, 04 January 2005 01:24
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| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 11:52 |
| bbaacchhyy wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 08:45 |
Effective ratio (wheel rate), sprung/unsprung weight differences, bushing condition, f/rear weight distribution, geometry of front and rear suspension, family/sports car, roll centre differences, overall weight, two/four doors, roll centre changes with suspension movement, CoG
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Same, same, all new, approx same, same, same same same same same.
They run the same everything.
Cressida weighs in 100kg(ish) heavier, and yes, the CoG on the family would be higher.
They run same suspension, same brakes (almost, supra's are heavier), etc etc.
The MX73 is basically a 4 door MA61.
The MASSIVE difference in handling is phenomenal.
And we just can't explain it.
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You would be suprised how much difference a small amount can make. Whilst the suspension may appear similar, it may be mounted differently which can have a profound effect.
Once a luxo, always a luxo barge ... but a quick one at that 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Tue, 04 January 2005 01:27
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 12:24 |
| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 11:52 |
| bbaacchhyy wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 08:45 |
Effective ratio (wheel rate), sprung/unsprung weight differences, bushing condition, f/rear weight distribution, geometry of front and rear suspension, family/sports car, roll centre differences, overall weight, two/four doors, roll centre changes with suspension movement, CoG
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Same, same, all new, approx same, same, same same same same same.
They run the same everything.
Cressida weighs in 100kg(ish) heavier, and yes, the CoG on the family would be higher.
They run same suspension, same brakes (almost, supra's are heavier), etc etc.
The MX73 is basically a 4 door MA61.
The MASSIVE difference in handling is phenomenal.
And we just can't explain it.
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You would be suprised how much difference a small amount can make. Whilst the suspension may appear similar, it may be mounted differently which can have a profound effect.
Once a luxo, always a luxo barge ... but a quick one at that
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well soarer are classed as luxo barge, yes?.. my soarer is basically exactly an ma61, as a mz20 is basically exactly ma70 and jzz30 is jza80 underneath
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Tue, 04 January 2005 01:28
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| Jag7799 wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 12:27 |
my soarer is basically exactly an ma61, as a mz20 is basically exactly ma70 and jzz30 is jza80 underneath
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Basically and exactly are not the SAME.
10mm difference in a suspension mounting point can make a huge difference, even to the extent of HOW a sway bar is mounted
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Tue, 04 January 2005 02:13
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 12:28 |
| Jag7799 wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 12:27 |
my soarer is basically exactly an ma61, as a mz20 is basically exactly ma70 and jzz30 is jza80 underneath
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Basically and exactly are not the SAME.
10mm difference in a suspension mounting point can make a huge difference, even to the extent of HOW a sway bar is mounted
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sorry, i meant to say 100% identical? .. the only difference is in the diffs
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Tue, 04 January 2005 06:45
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phear teh JZA61! 
And i havent contemplated sway bars yet....
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Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Fri, 07 January 2005 12:13
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you've got the HP tokicos and not the illuminas, right glen?
whats the difference?
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Fri, 07 January 2005 22:08
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i have HP's
i 'think' the illuminas are adjustable, and thus more expensive.
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Location:
Hobart, TAS
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sat, 08 January 2005 12:16
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okay... so the gist of this thread to have an awsome suspension setup for an MA61 would be to have
Rear:
Tociko's
Front:
Kings Std's
and springs to suit?
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sat, 08 January 2005 13:20
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| negative boost wrote on Sat, 08 January 2005 23:16 |
okay... so the gist of this thread to have an awsome suspension setup for an MA61 would be to have
Rear:
Tociko's
Front:
Kings Std's
and springs to suit?
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Tokicos are the shocks, kings are the springs.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sat, 08 January 2005 13:32
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| ed_ma61 wrote on Wed, 22 December 2004 10:42 |
king lows spring rate:
front is rising rate 190lb/in to 225lb/in
rear is linear rate 235lb/in
imho, Fr = 250 and Rr = 300 would be a good combo
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1) FWIW, the RA65/SA63 springs are:
front: 140 --> 220 (progressive)
rear 200
BUT I have been told more than once that the fronts are progressive only to keep the springs captive, and work at a linear rate (220) at working height.
2) The reports of Ma6x King's Lows being too low interest me, because I have lows in my RA65 and they are NOT too low at all. In fact, I'm going to lower the front more once I convert to coilovers.
3) ED - why do you suggest a much higher spring rate in the back as being ideal? Not tail happy enough for you? 
4) There are a lot of dampers from other cars that WILL fit our cars - for example, SW20 strut inserts (front AND back) will drop in the front on xA6xs, just have a shorter body (by 40mm for the rear, 60mm front IIRC) and the rears also have a shorter stroke IIRC. I have a pair of GAB 8 way externally adjustables fro mthe rear of a MR2 waiitng to go in, just need to use a small spacer.
A lot of shocks from 'merican cars will fit the rear, and these can be had in externally adjustable racing types too (though externally over internally adjustable isn't such a big deal for the rear)
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sat, 08 January 2005 13:41
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Oh yeah - check the Suspension section of the celicasupra.com forums, especially on shock. IIRC A lot of them favour some model of KYB that we don't get over here over the tokiko HPs, becuase they last longer, thought the valving is very slightly softer at either the front or back. Can't remember.
I want some of these for the rear of my car, I don't know of anyone who has tried them in an A6, but they will fit and look uber-nice.
http://935motorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php ?cPath=79_15_22&products_id=792
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sat, 08 January 2005 13:52
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| Intensevil wrote on Mon, 27 December 2004 23:00 |
How do you go about "choosing" what spring rate you use in an a6? From what i gather our only choices are import some eibach's or buy king springs locally.
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Not just Kings. There's QuadrantSuspensions, Kmac, Dobinsons...
a lot of companies will make you springs to your specs, too.
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sat, 08 January 2005 23:25
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MA/GA61's would look pretty tough with front camber to suit the rear camber caused by the king lows 
If only I could be bothered doing something about it.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sun, 09 January 2005 02:04
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| HyDrA wrote on Sun, 09 January 2005 10:25 |
MA/GA61's would look pretty tough with front camber to suit the rear camber caused by the king lows
If only I could be bothered doing something about it.
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easy as piss - swap in some ra60 struts
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Location:
Hobart, TAS
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sun, 09 January 2005 03:48
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| BlackSupra wrote on Sun, 09 January 2005 00:20 |
| negative boost wrote on Sat, 08 January 2005 23:16 |
okay... so the gist of this thread to have an awsome suspension setup for an MA61 would be to have
Rear:
Tociko's
Front:
Kings Std's
and springs to suit?
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Tokicos are the shocks, kings are the springs.
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just shows how much i know about suspension 
atleast i know a little bit more now  time to get some tokico hp's and some kings std's
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sun, 09 January 2005 21:21
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| ed_ma61 wrote on Sun, 09 January 2005 12:34 |
| HyDrA wrote on Sun, 09 January 2005 10:25 |
MA/GA61's would look pretty tough with front camber to suit the rear camber caused by the king lows
If only I could be bothered doing something about it.
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easy as piss - swap in some ra60 struts
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Been there, done that, 2 degrees neg camber for $11 per side
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sun, 09 January 2005 23:30
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And if you want 2 degrees positive camber, all you need to do is swap in Cressida/Chaser struts.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Sun, 09 January 2005 23:37
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| Norbie wrote on Mon, 10 January 2005 10:00 |
And if you want 2 degrees positive camber, all you need to do is swap in Cressida/Chaser struts.
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Yeah, but yours cost more 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Mon, 10 January 2005 07:47
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Yup, and the price is still rising! The car is off to the suspension shop on Thursday to get the struts bent about 3 degrees. I'm also having the tie-rods modified so I can use MX83 tie-rod ends. I wouldn't be surprised if I reached $5k for the front end mods!
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Mon, 10 January 2005 20:37
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| Norbie wrote on Mon, 10 January 2005 18:17 |
Yup, and the price is still rising! The car is off to the suspension shop on Thursday to get the struts bent about 3 degrees. I'm also having the tie-rods modified so I can use MX83 tie-rod ends. I wouldn't be surprised if I reached $5k for the front end mods!
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Didn't you have to use the MX83 steering arms as part of the conversion (I remember you mentioning them as they were shorter) and hence the attraction ?
Are they just machining the cone to match the MX83 ?
I sometimes can't believe the minor differences that they sometimes make between 'standard type' parts
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Mon, 10 January 2005 20:37
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| Norbie wrote on Mon, 10 January 2005 18:17 |
Yup, and the price is still rising! The car is off to the suspension shop on Thursday to get the struts bent about 3 degrees. I'm also having the tie-rods modified so I can use MX83 tie-rod ends. I wouldn't be surprised if I reached $5k for the front end mods!
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OK, that will get you back to about 0 camber
Didn't you have to use the MX83 steering arms as part of the conversion (I remember you mentioning them as they were shorter) and hence the attraction ?
Are they just machining the cone to match the MX83 ?
I sometimes can't believe the minor differences that they sometimes make between 'standard type' parts
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Tue, 11 January 2005 09:25
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Yes I'm using MX83 steering arms, which have a slightly different taper to the MA61 steering arms. I'm currently using MA61 tie-rod ends which kind of works but is very dodgy... the long-term solution is to use MX83 tie-rod ends, but they're a lot shorter so modifications are necessary.
It gets complicated quickly doesn't it?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Tue, 11 January 2005 12:08
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| Norbie wrote on Tue, 11 January 2005 20:25 |
Yes I'm using MX83 steering arms, which have a slightly different taper to the MA61 steering arms. I'm currently using MA61 tie-rod ends which kind of works but is very dodgy... the long-term solution is to use MX83 tie-rod ends, but they're a lot shorter so modifications are necessary.
It gets complicated quickly doesn't it?
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just take 'em out and use duct tape
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Tue, 11 January 2005 20:45
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| Norbie wrote on Tue, 11 January 2005 19:55 |
Yes I'm using MX83 steering arms, which have a slightly different taper to the MA61 steering arms.
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Just do'em up a bit tighter
| Norbie wrote on Tue, 11 January 2005 19:55 |
It gets complicated quickly doesn't it?
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Not if you have a big hammer
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 00:55
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| CrUZsida wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 11:20 |
With all these helpful solutions Norbie, I'm surprised you're not done yet
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My favourite saying from my RAAF Airframe fitter days was
"If it jams, force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway".
Needless to say, I don't work like that....
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 00:56
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HEY! I live by that rule...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 01:01
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| CrUZsida wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 11:26 |
HEY! I live by that rule...
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I try and avouid it as I hate Ezi-Outs and buying new bolts/tools etc gets expensive ....
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 01:11
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| CrUZsida wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 11:50 |
| Jag7799 wrote on Tue, 11 January 2005 20:08 |
just take 'em out and use duct tape
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 04:45 |
Just do'em up a bit tighter
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 04:45 |
Not if you have a big hammer
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With all these helpful solutions Norbie, I'm surprised you're not done yet
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you know, i was thinking the very same thing..
with my duct tape solution he shoulda been done months ago
duct tape solves all problems
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 02:01
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yeah, just ask the doritfo population, whose cars are more often than not held together by duct tape.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 02:22
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 11:55 |
My favourite saying from my RAAF Airframe fitter days was
"If it jams, force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway".
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So it was you that caused me grief repairing these aircraft.....
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 02:31
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| gold28 wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 12:52 |
| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 11:55 |
My favourite saying from my RAAF Airframe fitter days was
"If it jams, force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway".
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So it was you that caused me grief repairing these aircraft.....
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My damage ummm work was only confined to P3 Orions.... and that ended in 1995 when I left anyway
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 02:53
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 13:31 |
| gold28 wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 12:52 |
| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 11:55 |
My favourite saying from my RAAF Airframe fitter days was
"If it jams, force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway".
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So it was you that caused me grief repairing these aircraft.....
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My damage ummm work was only confined to P3 Orions.... and that ended in 1995 when I left anyway
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how old are you?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 03:20
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| Jag7799 wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 13:23 |
how old are you?
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38, why ?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 03:46
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 14:20 |
| Jag7799 wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 13:23 |
how old are you?
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38, why ?
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just curious, i was thinking maybe like 23 or something. .and then u said "back in 1995" .. when i would have been like 11
lol
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 20:29
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 13:31 |
My damage ummm work was only confined to P3 Orions.... and that ended in 1995 when I left anyway
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I am a Design Engineer at RAAF Base Richmond doing the deeper and intermediate maintenance on P3's.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 12 January 2005 20:48
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| gold28 wrote on Thu, 13 January 2005 06:59 |
| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 13:31 |
My damage ummm work was only confined to P3 Orions.... and that ended in 1995 when I left anyway
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I am a Design Engineer at RAAF Base Richmond doing the deeper and intermediate maintenance on P3's.
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Mine was at 492SQN and I had a small involvement with Project Air 5276 on the Simulator
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Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 02:21
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sorry to be a thread necro, but:
kings lows in the front
kings standards in the rear
tokicos
bad idea using lower springs in the front?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 02:22
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Get standard height kings with a 7MGTE and intercooler.
If you were putting in a 1GGTE or 1UZ, then maybe king lows.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 02:26
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listen to the man
standard height all round if you're going kings, or get some custome height/rate springs made up, and go half way between king standards and king lows.
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Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 02:27
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alright done
thanks buddies 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 02:38
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| draven wrote on Wed, 03 August 2005 11:56 |
listen to the man
standard height all round if you're going kings,.
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The latest pics of my car with the new mags are with King Stds, and I still don't have the radiator fitted !!!
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 04:28
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I still don't know why I don't have massive rear camber problems with my Kings low springs (SA63/RA65 springs in RA65). They're fine.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 04:35
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Go get a rear alignment done.
You'll find its around the -3deg.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 05:25
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| CrUZsida wrote on Wed, 03 August 2005 14:35 |
Go get a rear alignment done.
You'll find its around the -3deg.
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I have photos somewhere... took them specifically to compare rear camber. Have compared with photos people have posted of MA6x's with king lows & excessive rear camber. My car has nowhere near -3 deg.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 06:00
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is anything back there bent?
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 06:23
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No. As I said, they are IRS Celica springs, not Supra ones. Different part #. Perhaps they are longer, or a different rate.
Here:
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 06:30
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Thats also not stupidly low.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 06:46
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| CrUZsida wrote on Wed, 03 August 2005 16:30 |
Thats also not stupidly low.
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Note that they're 205/60 tyres, which are a smaller total diametre than stock (looks less lowered than it would otherwise). Also not as wide as stock MA6x tyres, which may make the camber less obvious.
I have a good shot of the rear neg somewhere; you can definetly see the neg camber increase on the fronts, and the rrear IS more than that... but still not silly IMO.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 07:00
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That's sitting WAY higher than an MA61 with lows. No wonder your camber is fine.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 07:35
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in fact, it's sitting at almost an identical height to mine with std king springs.....
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 08:15
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I STILL haven't got any RA60 struts... and the Adelaide Coopers rally is this weekend... *sigh* no negative camber on the front again!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 08:19
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I'm 99% sure MX73 struts are the same as MA61, so don't bother barking up that tree.
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 08:39
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For those interested in getting serious with their suspension, Noltec is pretty much a one-stop-shop. Not the cheapest though, but you get what you pay for.
I have a full set of nolathane bushes and adjustable strut tops from them, and I'm getting measured up for coilovers this friday. Quoted $1500 without him looking at it - just a ballpark figure. And yes, fully adjustable. damper, rebound, height, castor, camber ... even retention rates.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 08:49
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| joorsh wrote on Wed, 03 August 2005 18:39 |
And yes, fully adjustable. damper, rebound, height, castor, camber ...
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Not on the rear I assume.
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 09:11
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Well that would be quite a trick considering the spring and shock and separate units I told them this, and they still seemed to think they could come up with something "as good" as a coilover adjustable setup and still stay under the magic $1500 mark.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 12:08
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| Stefan wrote on Wed, 03 August 2005 16:23 |
No. As I said, they are IRS Celica springs, not Supra ones. Different part #. Perhaps they are longer, or a different rate.
Here:
images...
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These are lows
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 12:36
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No one believes me. I'll grab the part #s next time I'm under there (the tags are still on the springs IIRC). It did look a LOT lower with standard-sized (bigger overall diameter) wheels & tyres on.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 Suspension....
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Wed, 03 August 2005 12:43
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| joorsh wrote on Wed, 03 August 2005 18:09 |
, and I'm getting measured up for coilovers this friday. Quoted $1500 without him looking at it - just a ballpark figure. And yes, fully adjustable. damper, rebound, height, castor, camber ... even retention rates.
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$1500 for Front AND rear coilovers (or equivalent for the rear) with all of those adjustments for that ?
I'd love to see that, even if it is in kit form !!!
Any idea of what brand shocks and springs , and what rates ?
Cheers
Michael B
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