| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 05:55
|
 |
Hey all,
just about to start adding programmable ignition to my MS's repertoire and would like to hear of others experiences with adjusting ignition advance, how they went with on-road tuning (i know dyno is much better, but to start, road is fine  ), and i would especially like to look at any ignition maps people have for NA motors.
i have a basic idea of what my motor will like (based on 10-15 deg changes of advance and seeing where in the rev range was 'nice'), but i'm sure many have much more hands on experience than i do. i also know that each motor requires different settings, but i'm tryign to get a feel for the shape of an ignition map, compared to my own strange ideas 
TIA, Stewart
|
|
|
Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 06:10
|
|
|
same boat, seconded
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 06:14
|
|
I can show you a forced induction map for 3tgte.. Sorry no NA maps 
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 06:22
|
|
Heya Joel,
that'd still be neat if i could (confidentiality assured )
i just grabbed the autronic software from their site 
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 07:01
|
|
|
Do you have Michaels ignition info from the 4A?
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 07:41
|
|
After having some experience with it...
It all depends on the type of fuel used, Cam setup, and exhaust/intake setup...
Generally down low, run around 5Degree at around idle, and it moves up to around 18Degrees I think it was on a Mazda 121 with a B5 transplant...
Although I've seen a 600CC motorbike engine running around 30degree of ign... LOL... Until we knocked it back a bit...
I'll see if I can get a picture of a graphical map for you...
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 07:47
|
|
Thanks Kyosho,
fuel 98
cam, 275/284 65deg overlap... limit of 'sensible' street setup perhaps?
my little car likes around 20+ at idle due to the cam, and i have trouble making it ping until well after power is decreasing so i have a reasonable safety margin.
i've searched around a bit, but ignition maps tend to be guarded a bit... i wonder if thats due to the black art surrounding it, or just proprietary secrecy...
some of the ones i have seen are attrocious
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 07:54
|
|
Does anyone have a screenshot or printout of a stock/ish ignition map for a 1jz?
I understand how to do the tuning for the fuel but is there any way to tune for ignition so that you can find out if it is detonating inaudibly? (sp)
BTW most tuning will be done on dyno to start with.
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 07:54
|
|
|
I'll check with my boss, and see if I can post up the GRAPHIC one of his B5 engine, and I'll see if I can get a print scrn of the textual one as well...
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 07:57
|
|
Its a bit hard to see, but it may give you somewhere to start.
http://www.oz-enet.com.au/~peewee/2ndgear_datalog. jpg
The green line is deg BTDC, peaks out around 36degrees BTDC @ 6000rpm.
This is only a few hours on the dyno, so it not probably what it will end up with.
|
|
|
Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 09:18
|
|
| CrUZsida wrote on Thu, 27 January 2005 18:57 |
Its a bit hard to see, but it may give you somewhere to start.
http://www.oz-enet.com.au/~peewee/2ndgear_datalog. jpg
The green line is deg BTDC, peaks out around 36degrees BTDC @ 6000rpm.
This is only a few hours on the dyno, so it not probably what it will end up with.
|
Is that your 1uz?
thanks mate
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 09:38
|
|
Hey Chris
What sort of engine is it you are going to tune?
I got the go ahead, I'll just get the pics...
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 09:48
|
|
|
I have the two pictures... They are saved as BMP and my FTP is broken atm so I can't host them for everyone to view, but if you give me your email Chris I'll email them to you...
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 10:05
|
|
Thanks CrUZida,
thats abotu what i was thinking for mine, except maybe a bit more up top...
i'm really after a 3D table of advance vs MAP/load and rpm, so how the advance is affected by vacuum and rpm. also what steps ppl take to stabilise idle with large cams using ignition around the idling 'area'
fwiw, here is my fuel map so far (taken from the realtime tuning screen of Megatune)
the red 'X' is at minimum rpm and maximum vacuum (ie minimum kpa), and MAP is the axis to the right, rpm axis is toward the back.. the flattish area at left is the idle area.
basically i need to set up a spark map for this 
i'll knock up a vague map and put it up too..
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 10:43
|
|
|
You want these ign maps I have? Text and graphical...
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 10:46
|
|
| Chris Davey wrote on Thu, 27 January 2005 17:18 |
Is that your 1uz?
|
Yes
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 10:48
|
|
Sorry about that... I didn't see your PM...
Photos are on their way...
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 10:56
|
|
So what are the two engines being tuned at the moment?
And I had gotten my ign points from memory (way up above) completely wrong.. So disregard them... lol
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 12:18
|
|
well, mine is a 4K (1300cc), 10.2:1CR, 275/284, 231/235 cam with 435thou lift, 65deg adv overlap. fairly well modified head, tuned 4-2-1 extractors and 2" exhaust (exhaust tuning seems to kick in well around 5700rpm.. a few hundred rpm above the design rpm). now has EFI 7KE manifold.. basically 30mm intake ports from plenum to valve.
currently has stock dizzy (octane selector denso type) with HEI
static advance is somewhere around 20-25deg or so.. am just about to put in a new VR dizzy, with 4 pin ignitor as a trigger for MS, and will be running MS2 for ignition support (as soon as V1 code is declared)
torque is pretty flat from 4000 up, but at 5500rpm it's like VVT kicks in and the extractors do their job.
first thing i'm doing is setting up one of the elec dizzies with locked advance, and then running at different settings to see what rpm/load likes what advance (ie starting with WOT, then increasing advance and backing off load and rpm)
shold be fun... hoping to have it done before the feb WSID night
Cya, Stewart
ps, OR i will be using one of the EDIS4 units i have, and running wasted spark.... either way, i will need an ignition map
[Updated on: Thu, 27 January 2005 12:24]
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 22:20
|
|
Here is my old 3t-gte timing map. I actually run quite a lot more timing in the midrange and higher up. But haven't a screen shot of it with me.
If downloaded the autronic software i could actually send you my maps to look at.
here is the old timing map anyway -
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 27 January 2005 23:34
|
|
Base ignition map for a 1JZ out of my PowerFC:
Base fuel map for a 1JZ out of my PowerFC:
|
|
|
Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 00:49
|
|
Thanks Soarer! That should help a lot. I was just wondering what the numbers on the bottom axis’ refer to?
The engine I am tuning is a 1jz-gte. Stock internals including cams and cam gears. Has HKS Ta45s turbo (650hp & most likely laggy) and external wastegate, 550cc injectors, FMIC, exhaust, standard coil packs and igniter. Is being run by wolf 3d v4 ECU.
Kyosho: email is jzpowahz@gmail.com More maps the merrier!
I don’t think I missed it, but what sort of tool can you use to check that the car isn’t detonating when you are tuning the ignition?
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 04:11
|
|
You really need a set of tuning headphones to listen for the knocks-I've been using a mechanical type setup with a long steel rod and a stethoscope headset recently-but thats only good on the dyno as you have to have it pressed onto the block (it does work a treat though-you can also use it to check solenoids, injectors etc.). I'm probably going to pick up a set soonish for when I really start to wind the timing up. Snap on do a set-$200 or so. It may seem extreem, but that is how the factory knock sensors are tuned up.
The other ways of course are by ear and reading the plugs-but if you have spent up big on the powerplant-another 200 isn't a big stretch for peace of mind. (especially in a blown motor with stock pistons when detonation can wipe out your engine almost instantly at high boost levels.....)
Sean
|
|
|
Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 04:43
|
|
| MS-75 wrote on Fri, 28 January 2005 15:11 |
You really need a set of tuning headphones to listen for the knocks-I've been using a mechanical type setup with a long steel rod and a stethoscope headset recently-but thats only good on the dyno as you have to have it pressed onto the block (it does work a treat though-you can also use it to check solenoids, injectors etc.). I'm probably going to pick up a set soonish for when I really start to wind the timing up. Snap on do a set-$200 or so. It may seem extreem, but that is how the factory knock sensors are tuned up.
The other ways of course are by ear and reading the plugs-but if you have spent up big on the powerplant-another 200 isn't a big stretch for peace of mind. (especially in a blown motor with stock pistons when detonation can wipe out your engine almost instantly at high boost levels.....)
Sean
|
thanks mate, thats what I was looking for
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 07:15
|
|
Hey Chris...
Old Corrolas put the pics I sent him on the web, so I'll send you the links for them...
Once you are finished tuning your 1JZ-GTE, can I get a copy in text and graphical format from you please as I am planning on dropping a 1JZ-GTE into a MA70 Supra at the end of this year start of next and running an Adaptronic 420...
|
|
|
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 07:17
|
|
Hey Soarer...
Can you please explain what the Letters and numbers stand for on your ign and fuel maps? They confuse me quite a bit
|
|
|
Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 14:06
|
|
doesn't hks make a "knock" amp... where you can monitor det using a head set.
Recently saw a link for a 'knock meter' (japanese product) with a LED display thats complatible with quite a few factory knock sensors listed.
Turbo volvo u.s. guys have a schematic for d.i.y. circuitry to read cheap gm? knock sensors. I have a link somewhere around here.
Mitsu guys get incredible performance from their stock internal 2L turbo motors monitoring knock sensor activity in the stock ecu, by using inexpensive dataloggers connected to a laptop or palm. Very effective.
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 14:15
|
|
what you are forgetting is that a 'knock sensor' to be of any real value, must be tuned specifically to a certain engine, so that the extraneous mechanical noise is filtered out, and only the actual ringing of the cylinder immediately after firing (or before in the case of detonation) is detected and reported as knock.
it is a very complex problem requiring not only a bandpass filter aroudn the knock frequency (which you must determine), but you also need to restrict the detection window to a specific part of the crank rotation.
the LED and other cheap meters that are sold are not always very effective, unless the original sensor for your motor already is properly mechanically filtered. intercepting the ECU's interpretation is one way, but even OEM knock detection algorithms leave a fair bit to be desired
there are a number of very good papers on the subject floating around the net, and even a few theses, so i'll leave it at that...
what is more promising is 'ion sensing' of cylinders via the spark plugs.. better to stop pinging even before it occurs.. but again, thats a google effort
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 22:43
|
|
Exactly Stewart.
When a factory knock sensor is tuned up they do it one cylinder at a time, slowly increasing the timing and analysing the sounds (aurally and with a computer frequency readout), gases etc. Due to the placement of the sensor and the shape of the block, each cylinder shows up/sounds slightly different. This is why each cyl is done individually. It also allows the ECU to trim each cyl for spark advance individually.
The ONLY way to relatively reliably use a knock sensor is through the original ECU for the engine acting as the filter.
To give you an idea-for our people to tune up an engine here ready for release (I work at Mitsubishi), it can take well over 12 months.
Kinda puts into perspective the quality of the tune put into your car by a dyno opeartor, on a chassis dyno, without a knock sensor and with an aftermarket ECU, (read 'pathetically weak ECU compared to a factory one') doesn't it?
Also shows why it is almost impossible to get an aftermarket ECU vehicle emissions compliant-and the standards are only getting tougher each year.
Take it easy
Sean
PS-have alook in an Autronic manual-there is a good base timing map section. I used it for the base map in my 4.5L turbo and went from there. On road with a set of ear phones is a great way to do it-and with an atmo engine, detonation isn't as dangerous as a turbo motor. Just be aware to keep an eye on A/F ratio whilst you do it, as advancing the timing will tend to give you a leaner burn as there is more combustion time in the cyl.
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: tuning ignition??
|
Thu, 17 March 2005 12:40
|
|
| Quote: |
I take my forum shovel and i dig dig dig...
|
time to dig up this old thread..
i've whacked some advance numbers into the MS2 and we'll see how they perform in the next few days.. sort of halfway between Joels NA part of map and the 4AG map pictured earlier..
also a bit more aggressive in the light throttle parts since i have lower dynamic compression and fairly high knock resistance..
but maxing out around 36 deg at WOT to start.. better to be safe than sorry.
base timing with the dodgy mech dizzy is around 15-20deg, so that seems a reasonable starting point
have also set cranking advance arouns 10-12deg.. maybe this makes startign easier? we'll see...
stick around and i'll post up some rough numbers when the car runs..
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
