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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Fri, 11 October 2002 04:26
 
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Just remember that it is not possible nor convenient for people to make their own manifolds, and you can pay up to $3500 for a trust or KKS one.
I myself choked at the hybrid price, however, where they win is with insurance. Totally hidden.
I would of course prefer a big single (or twins), but can someone give me an idea of who the hell would insure me. With turbo replacements such as that. Somehow I dont think the "Oh but now it's only a single turbo, not twin" arguement wont work.
Just being practical here. I would nt like to see any of us in a big accident and get put in jail due to insurance fraud.
Re: Ignition, I havent heard much about this aspect of a build up. I'm assuming that the theory is based on combustion chamber pressure and hence resistance to spark at high boost?? Is that how it goes? Can we add a booster coil for the stockers or will this mean the impedance is too high through them.???
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Fri, 11 October 2002 04:43
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1Jwunder,
I also chocked at the price you got from the UK to hybrid the two CT12a's, even at the total price of $3,000 proposed. Although it would be worth seeing some dyno figures on these as well as knowing what other mods were on the vehicle.
Surely there must be somebody in Australia who can do the same thing.
Lead time, and time off road for freight to a from UK is a bit prohibitive.
I assume they would be pretty laggy.
Personally, I'd still like to know how the 1JZ-GTE with VVTi gets such low RPM torque figures. Is it likely to be because of the Variable Valve Timing?
Michael
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Fri, 11 October 2002 05:17
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just cars will insure almost anyone
including my brother, just off a suspended lisence for dui, turbo car with big list of mods, 19 years old....
of course, he pays $970 for 3rd party property, and has a $2100 excess....
but they still insure him 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Fri, 11 October 2002 07:15
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I'd still like to know how the 1JZ-GTE with VVTi gets such low RPM torque figures. Is it likely to be because of the Variable Valve Timing?
yup!!!
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Fri, 11 October 2002 10:49
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I dont know that much about the 1J's, so correct me.
The stock ignition isn't good enough? It uses the same setup as GTR's and many places in japan still run the factory coils with easy 700+ hp engines. The 7MGTE ones are fine for alot of power and they have half the charge time of 1J ones cause 1j's have individual sequential fire ignitiom.eg 6 coils versus 3.
Sorry if i'm hi-jacking the thread. Just curious.
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Fri, 11 October 2002 14:41
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I'm no expert on this I just know that onboth the big HP 'j engines I know of they have required a cdi unit or msd.
otherwise the plugs and ignition become unreliable in a vicious cycle of fouling (too cold) and breaking down (too bigger gap) and detonating (too hot).
Matt
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Sat, 12 October 2002 11:46
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SO MANY CONSIDERERATIONS BEFORE GOING BIGGER TURBO
$4500 would give you enough money to buy a Garret gt40(roller bearing turbo) a custom manifold and an external wastegate .
I wouldnt spend more than $1,000 on standard turbos they simply have a poor bearing cartridge design arn't a tough turbo .Once you start talking $2,000 your far better off to look at a gt turbo or a Nissan (rb20 etc) ball bearing build up
as Grant said you need an aftermarket ECU for any decent power gains.The standard injectors are maxed out around 320 H.p @ wheels .From this power point onward you need a healthy checkbook
Then you need to look at the ignition system .
Six good injectors alone should set you back about $900
Try getting big injectors to idle and respond well down low with cheap shit interceptors and ecu's .
Ive seen heaps of good hardware setups that lag in the arse until 3500 rpm simlpy because of poor fuelling and ignition ideas
.The issue with ECU's is not will it run it.its how well
Thanx for the wrap matt but grant is the Electronics man and Joe L has proven good results from the cdi unit
The auto shits itself around 340 H.P @ wheels (ask joe) so your looking at a Minimum $2500 upgrade for real Power
The standard clutch cant handle this much either so your looking at a $2000 ++++++ clutch ..i know there are cheaper but once real TORQUE is made they fry
how tuff is your diff???????
the supra jza70 diffs appear very strong but will paint one black line a LOT darker the other once good power goes through them .There is no point making power that you cant put it evenly to the Ground
I think $8,000 is a conservative budget .Ultimatley you WILL spend $10,000 or more
if your only looking for 350 h.P @ wheels it will cost almost as much as 500 H.p will
All this has been proven by Joey,Joe L,Grant and myself .with the two Joes having actually run big turbos .Some of these ideas are good in theory but have proven ordinary in practise
a few months from now i will be able to post results of ported standard 1j turbos .by only spending $800 the power will be limited only by the injector size and 320H.p@wheels should easily be achieved at less than 16 psi .Lets hope the factory auto can handle this much .
If your looking for more than 320 hp @ wheels Spend the big bucks .If not squueze all you can out of the factory ones but dont go overboard
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Sun, 13 October 2002 00:42
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Just an extra note .The ignition problems with the 1j's is
firstly an overheating problem .with the coil pack mounted directly on top of the spark plug .Once you begin making more power you make more heat .This is the main cause of the 1j plugs fouling so regularly
The OTHER reason for aftermarket ignition is once aftermarket ecu is fitted .It is common to have to run waste spark .
With the right ecu and a CDI(or similar) unit sequential FAT spark can be run. the perforamance gains from a quality ignition system speak for themselves .
certainly an engine will run with the factory ignition system
It seems pointless to run a more expensive ecu and retain the factory ignition system .When a much smoother and more powerfull result can be gained for a similar price
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Tue, 15 October 2002 01:22
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| celicamad wrote on Sun, 13 October 2002 10:42 |
Just an extra note .The ignition problems with the 1j's is
firstly an overheating problem .with the coil pack mounted directly on top of the spark plug .Once you begin making more power you make more heat .This is the main cause of the 1j plugs fouling so regularly
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Hate to correct you Paul, but this is in fact incorrect. The basic explanation has to do with the electrical properties of inductive igniters, dwell and finite coil charge time. (If you want the full technical spool, just ask and I will answer).
Anyway, it appears that this post occurs every 6 months or so, so here is one of my previous replies.
"unfortunately 1JZ exhaust manifolds are not off the shelf in Aus. and you have to make one or get it made. (you can however buy one from the states or from Japan for upwards of $4K manifold only)
(A tuned length custom 6 cylinder manifold will cost you $1600)
*** THIS IS GOING TO COST $$$ ***
No matter how many times I tell people, it does NOT cost 'a few grand' to do this.
I have done the complete single turbo conversion 3 times for myself on three different cars I own, the most recent being my MK4 supra, (I have also setup a multitude of other cars for other people)
I'll give you ballpark figures (I am bound to get jumped on here by all the experts that have done this already or know where they can get this part for cheaper!)
Turbo $1500 - $3500 (dependant on what you want)
Wastegate $500 - $1500
Fuel system $2500 (I bet this gets some questions)
Computer $1000 - $5000 (personal preference and cost)
Ignition $1000
Intercooler $1000 - $2000 (but I can get a truck one for cheaper?!#$)
Exhaust manifold $1000 - $2000
Intercooler pipes and Silicon hoses + clamps $500 - $1000
Exhaust system $500 - $1000
Tuning $500 - $1000
Extras such as radiator, air filter, fans, fittings etc.
Labour $???? depends who does it
Start adding it up and you will see why I say to people you will be lucky if you get change from $10K.
and what about the transmission, either way you can put aside $3000 - $4000 for an auto upgrade or a very costly clutch upgrade."
Hope this helps, I don't mean to put anybody off, just wanted to share some insight.
cheers
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Tue, 15 October 2002 09:23
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KING J
What would YOU know?????? Just because your an Electrical Engineer or whatever doesnt mean you know more than a Furniture salesman!!!!
JUST KIDDING .....you da man
i wondered how long it would take for you to have a look in this thread
Didnt you once mention something about overheating ???
as the coil overheated the spark dropped or Something like that ??
Anyway
I'll leave the explanation to you
Actually i'll correct myself on another point i didnt factor in the cost of the adaptor plate or torque converter for an auto so your $4,000 is very close to the money
P.S hows the wild 2jz going ???
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Location:
gold coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Tue, 15 October 2002 11:28
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KingJ, fill me in!!!
I want to know if i need to fork out more dough on a MoTeC CDI unit.
I have an M800 and will be running Bosch 0227100203 ignitors x 2.
(full sequential ignition)
Will i have coil overheating problems? if i use the stock coils?
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Tue, 15 October 2002 12:13
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I just took a digital pic of the t3 flange and also how i have modified the ct26 exhaust housing to allow proper flow as i had said earlier in this thread. 
Unfortuneatly i can't post the two pics which i think would give alot of direction to the thread. Dammn forum.
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Wed, 16 October 2002 01:52
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| Pete wrote on Tue, 15 October 2002 21:28 |
KingJ, fill me in!!!
I want to know if i need to fork out more dough on a MoTeC CDI unit.
I have an M800 and will be running Bosch 0227100203 ignitors x 2.
(full sequential ignition)
Will i have coil overheating problems? if i use the stock coils?
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Sorry For the long post.
Well for Paul and everyone elses benefit, here is the theory behind inductive and capacitve ignitions:
The inductance and resistance of the coil will determine how quickly a coil can be charged and discharged.
A transistor (inductive igniter) is used to switch the current flow off and on in the primary coil. When the transistor is switched on, current rapidly builds from 0 to a maximum value determined by the coil inductance and resistance. This current flow induces a magnetic field within the primary. When the current is turned off, this magnetic field collapses which cuts the windings of the secondary coil and induces a high voltage surge.
The output voltage is determined by the rate of field collapse and the windings ratio between primary and secondary. Because the path to ground for the current involves the spark gap, the initial resistance is extremely high. This allows the voltage to build to a very high value until it gets high enough to jump the plug gap. The potential difference must be high enough to first ionize the gas between the electrodes. The ionized gas creates a conductive path for the current to flow. At this point, the arc jumps and current flow is established.
It is important to note that if only 10,000 volts are required to jump a plug gap under a given condition, that will be the maximum delivered. It is also important to note that the spark duration is determined by coil inductance and total resistance of the circuit. Most inductive discharge systems have a spark duration of between 1 and 2 milliseconds.
As cylinder pressure increases, the voltage required to jump the plug gap increases. This is especially true in turbocharged engines under boost. The second problem on high performance engines with high rev limits, is that there is less time to charge the coil with increasing rpm. As such, a high rpm, high output, turbo engine puts greater demands on the ignition system than does a 5000 rpm naturally aspirated engine.
The amount of time it takes to charge the coil or bring the current to maximum in the primary windings is called charge time. Input voltage and coil resistance are the main parameters relating to charge time. When the current has reached its maximum value in the primary, it is said to be fully saturated.
If current is applied longer than the time needed to fully saturate the primary, energy is wasted as heating and there is nothing more to be gained. If the current is cut off before saturation is achieved, the maximum spark energy available will be reduced.
Typical coils require charge times of between 2.1 and 6 milliseconds. Obviously, a coil requiring 6 milliseconds to saturate would be unsuitable on a high revving engine as there is not 6 milliseconds available to charge it between discharges at high rpm. For this reason, most performance and racing coils have low primary resistances between .5 and .7 ohms and are fully saturated in less than 3 milliseconds (1J coils have a primary resistance of 0.54 - 084 ohm (cold)).
Capacitive discharge ignition
CDI is used to reduce charge times. In normal inductive discharge coils, only 12-14 volts is available from the battery to charge the primary. The CDI charges capacitors to store a high voltage kick to fire to the primary side, putting between 30 and 500 volts onto the primary windings that reduces the charge time substantially. A coil that would take 3 milliseconds to become fully saturated with 12 volts is now fully saturated in less than 1 millisecond with a CDI. The same engine now will be able to turn twice the rpm and experience a major increase in cylinder pressure before encountering misfire.
An over rich or over lean condition or broken parts cannot be fixed by any CDI system.
On well tuned engines in proper repair, plug fouling is really a thing of the past.
Pete
What coil charge time are you going to run? Why did you not just use the factory igniter? The M800 will interface with the factory igniter, I can even tell you what settings you need to set the Motec ignition output waveform to if you want to run the factory igniter.
The factory igniter is a smart igniter and does not require the computer to supply it a constant charge time, just a positive edge. The Bosch 0227100203 is a dumb igniter and requires a constant charge time to be supplied by the computer.
Your set up will work, however you will find that it is not much if at all better than the factory ignition system and you will have to keep your plug gap lower than 0.8mm and may still suffer the plug fouling problem. You may as well keep the factory igniter, if you can run it sequential it will work the same. I have used those Bosch igniters on a Honda V6 with an Autronic computer before. They work OK until you start to hit big boost and big RPM. Misfire becomes a problem.
How much is the Motec CDI? The retail cost of two Bosch 0227100203s is not that much less than an Autronic CDI. If you use CDI, you will have no problems at all. Your idle will be smother than factory (I can balance a 50 cent piece on its edge on my tappet cover at idle), you will be able to run colder plugs, you will be able to run as much gap as you like (I run 1.4mm), your plugs will never foul (will last a long time if tuned correctly).
Cheers
Again, sorry for the long post
[Updated on: Wed, 16 October 2002 02:35]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Wed, 16 October 2002 01:52
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King J, info us up. Although I'm non turbo, same basic setup as Pete. Need to know if I have to lash out on CDI unit.
Cheers Dave.
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Location:
gold coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Wed, 16 October 2002 11:00
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So basically there is nothing wrong with the JZ coil packs for high performance use. Just keep away from wastespark and she'll be right.
I priced 203 ignitors $190 each, problem is they only have 1 in australia ATM. (need 2)
What is Autronic CDI worth?? Motec CDI is $470.
I will probably get that.
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Wed, 16 October 2002 12:31
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Yeah heat is a killer and adds resistance. That's why you'll see that i relocated my 3 coils onto the fire wall.The extra resistance in the length of the spark plug leads is a small price to pay for keeping them cool.
I spose it's one instance where the GTR is better than the 1j/2j at the top end of the horsepower range. Also the GTR engines have a very wide distance between the cam covers which would help keep them cooler on GTR engines.
BTW my charge time on my coils is 4msec, anyone know what the factory 7MGTE ecu dwell time is?
Anyways, that was a massive sidetrack, lets get back to it.
Here's the T3 flange i mentioned above.
This is where i had to mill out the circular exhaust housing inlet into a rectangular section to allow the exhaust to have a better flow. This is the factory ct26 housing ppl were talking about using.
Sorry if the pics are too big!
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Wed, 16 October 2002 23:02
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| Pete wrote on Wed, 16 October 2002 21:00 |
So basically there is nothing wrong with the JZ coil packs for high performance use. Just keep away from wastespark and she'll be right.
I priced 203 ignitors $190 each, problem is they only have 1 in australia ATM. (need 2)
What is Autronic CDI worth?? Motec CDI is $470.
I will probably get that.
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Pete
There is nothing wrong with waste spark, it just gives you half the time frame for coil charge that sequential has. If you use waste spark, then you must use CDI. Mate if you can get a Motec CDI for $470, buy it, you will not go wrong.
cheers
Joseph
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Location:
gold coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Thu, 17 October 2002 02:37
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That CDI price is from the CAPA website. It will most probably be cheaper from MoTeC queensland head office.
BTW: SupraGTE, how is this ignition discussion a sidetrack???
No good having turbos that are good for 600Hp, but your ignition keeps breaking down at 6000RPM and 14PSI!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Thu, 17 October 2002 11:02
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stugling to keep up here (i haven't read or looked into ingnition to much yet)...can we run a CDI unit hooked up with the factory comp??? then again would i need to look at making improvements here if my current goal is 200rwkw???
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Thu, 17 October 2002 12:11
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Dont worry Mx83, the factory gear will be fine for 200 rwkw.
This stuff is more for aftermarket ecu's and 260 rwkw +..
Matt
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Thu, 17 October 2002 12:32
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hhhuuua *sigh* if only i had nothing else to worrie about besides the car atm...i'd so love to be able to go nuts...the thought of 200 at the wheels is exiteing to me 260=300 is just yummi
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Thu, 17 October 2002 12:33
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i think i might invest in som spallin lesons wots evione thinke 
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Sun, 10 November 2002 00:23
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Has anyone tried to rebuild a gt30, People say it can be done but i am yet to find someone that does,
Now thats an expensive turbo if u can not rebuild it....
A company on the gold coast offer something similar to gt30,b/b,rebuildable for about $200 more
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Location:
Miami FL
Registered:
December 2002
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 Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Wed, 11 December 2002 20:08
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I can't believe you are all talking about spending 10 grand just on upgrades. Thats insane. I spent under that including the car and my upgrades.
How about this setup for a 2jz in my mkIII. Not that I have done it or would ever because it involves borrowing parts from large trucks/heavy machinery. and I'm an upstanding citizen. 
1.)One NPR intercooler off an isuzu cube truck.
(I bought mine from a Spanish guy in Miami that borrows them for 150$) Not the best IC I know but it was cheap.
2.)Large turbo unit off a heavy equipment chipper/shredder. It's a garret unit TO4 I? Has a .86AR rear Took off the compressor housing and measured the wheel, roughly about 11cm. It's huge.
3.) deltagate used $100 (welded up myself) NOT HARD!
4.) I had an adapter plate made for my stock manifold 4 bolt pattern ($200)
5.) Local junk yard ford supercoupe injectors. Had them cleaned and re-worked. ($150) running 2 extra super coupe injectors. Equivalent of 550s I'm told. ( might have pocketed the injectors at the JY too) 
6.) Haltech E6k $1400. Installed myself. (PAIN IN THE ASS) Have someone else do this.
7.) $1320 for the 2jz plus 400 shipping.
8.) $2500 for a 90 mkIII (blown HG no trans car is in great shape!)
9.) Twin stock mk IV supra pumps. (buddy does conversion $200
10.) Nitto's 555R 2 275 16's (stock wheels) $350
11.) fuel pressure regulator $120
12.) Labor mostly done myself. Taking it to the dyno to tune haltech. Guessing around $500
13.) 1jz trans $450 (local supra shop )
14.) 2 stocker pressure plates welded together and ceramic clutch ($700)
TOTAL = $8890 I added another 500 for misc. lines, shipping and BS along the way. I sure I probably have closer to 10k invested but thats including the car engine and trans shipped to my door.
Currently g-teched at 522 hp to the wheels. I input 3600lbs at the vehicle weight. I know the car is lighter than that so I am really making more HP.
Track times--12.2 at 123. 15psi Pump gas 93 amaco. Crappily tuned by myself.
Keep in mind the engine bay looks a little shabby car is not in show quality but could be driven daily. About 15 mpg. (again my bad tuning) Car also has no AC. Or power steering. Oh well. It's a racer not a cooler.
Beat that for the money.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Wed, 11 December 2002 23:11
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Just wanted to point out, we are in australia spending the australian pesso. A quick total of your figures and you have spent over $5k on your ugrades.. our dollar only buy .50USD so basically saying it's crazy australians spending 10K on upgrade is quite funny when you have spent that much too.
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Location:
Southern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Thu, 12 December 2002 01:10
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2jZ for $AU1320.... I wish 
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Location:
Miami FL
Registered:
December 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Thu, 12 December 2002 05:38
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sorry to be a tool, but I cant find that spread sheet?
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Thu, 12 December 2002 06:37
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I am only new to the turbo scene, but as an engineer I know that anything like this is designed with compromises such as cost, drivability, reliability, fuel economy etc.
In the case of manifolds it is manufacturing costs and low end drivability. I haven't had a close look at these but if they are anything like other Toyota manifolds, they are probably pretty ordinary.
Why not put some intelligent research into getting better efficiency out of the existing turbo's. Obviously in doing this you will make other compromises, but they will be in areas such as production manufacturing costs and fuel efficiency.
Why not look at doing a small production run of fabricated manifolds that join the turbo's and exhaust system, From what I have heard, these are really ordinary. I reckon a lot of people would love a bolt on 20-50kw for say $500. Build up some templates and welding jigs and you could make them really quickly and cheeply.
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Thu, 12 December 2002 22:35
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I like the idea. Not sure about the Kw gain tho. Despite the Kw factor, there are aftermarket manifolds available from Japan I believe, but they are $1-$2K generally.
Fabricating our own is a great idea, but I believe exhaust manifolds from welded pipe arn't all that durable, hence why all the aftermarket ones are cast.
Besides the cost of the manifold, there may be problems aligning the 1J's inlet piping (cast aluminium) and expensive to find an alternative. Potentially a lot of unforseen expenses.
Supra GTE has just put a cast HKS exhaust manifold on his 7M-GTE. Interesting to see what power gains he has made.
By the way, that spreadsheet, I have one of the versions of it, possibly the latest on my hardrive.
Michael
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 1jz Single turbs Conversion
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Sun, 15 December 2002 05:01
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HKS does not make a T88 kit. you are most likely confusing GReddy with HKS. the GReddy T88 is available in several different specifications, like most turbos, but most ppl with this kit see a solid 770rwhp on a dynojet which translates to ~905hp at the crank. this is with a dodgy vpc etc combination "controlling" things. HKS' single turbo offerings around that level amount to the T04R, T51R-SPL and T51R-KAI kits. the T04R is around the 850hp mark, while both of the latter have proven to support over 940hp (800rwhp / dynojet). the SPL is ultimately meant to be capable of roughly 10% more than the KAI. several supras (jza80) with the SPL kit have run around the 150mph terminal speed mark over the 1/4. the HKS GT2835 twin kit is of similar capacity to the SPL and has proven to make 790rwhp (dynojet) on turbos alone (no nitrous). either way, youre talking about *big* turbo kits. below are a list of kits/prices.
GReddy T78 single turbo kit ~850hp (part# 11510030) rrp US$5200 common retail price: ~US$3800
GReddy T88 single turbo kit ~950hp (part# 1151003088) rrp US$5200 common retail price: ~US$3800
GReddy T88H single turbo kit ~1100hp (part# 11510031) rrp US$5350 common retail price: ~US$4000
HKS T04R single turbo kit ~850hp (part# 1103-RT030) rrp US$7895 common retail price: ~US$6000
HKS T51R-KAI single turbo kit ~950hp (part# 1103-RT031) rrp US$7260 retail price: ~US$6000 (rare kit outside japan)
HKS T51R-SPL single turbo kit ~1050hp (part# 1103-RT031A) rrp US$7260 retail price: ~US$6000 (even rarer kit outside japan)
HKS GT2835 twin turbo kit ~950hp (part# 1103-RT028US) rrp US$10,230 common retail price: ~US$7500
btw, ALL of these kits, and most custom single turbo installs, use fabricated exhaust manifolds not cast pipework. setting up the casting process is very expensive initially, although producing the subsequent items is then very cheap. the aftermarket has embraced custom pipework for this reason. all the big manufacturers like GReddy and HKS use jigs for their manifolds.
btw i am not a retailer, just thought id present some info.
regards
j
www.infctd.net
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