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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Fri, 08 July 2005 22:30
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I've got a smallport 16v 4AGE, and have a set of 20v throttle bodies. Looking at putting the two together, and have been looking at info about getting the two to fit. At the moment I'm inclined to do it the way Ben Wilson has done it - to get a stock manifold, cut it and weld a plate on to mount the quads.
So yes, getting it to actually fit on the engine, I think I have that sort of sorted in my head.
Now, computer. I've read somewhere that the stock computer can run the quads (although not spectacularly well). Everywhere here on Toymods I seem to read that it can't, though, and that I'll need an aftermarket computer of some description. What are the shortcomings of the stock ECU? Is it the fuel? I'm guessing it would run too lean, since the engine would be getting more air, and perhaps the MAP readings may be a bit strange as well with such a short manifold. If it's only the fuel that is a problem, would a piggyback computer (like the one Jaycar sells) to modify the MAP reading fix this?
Aftermarket computer would be the bees knees but budget isn't super, so if a cheaper option is availble it would be nice to know 
If a piggyback fuel computer won't fix it then I might look into the Megasquirt computer, would it be able to run just controlling fuel? Or will MS2 or similar be needed to control ignition as well?
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Fri, 08 July 2005 23:13
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its been done before on a stock ecu, a smallport ecu will work, a bigport wont.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 00:14
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Oh? That's a nice thing to know
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Location:
VIC, Sth Frankston.
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 02:58
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| J-AE86 wrote on Sat, 09 July 2005 09:13 |
its been done before on a stock ecu, a smallport ecu will work, a bigport wont.
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Why wouldnt a bigport work?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 06:05
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As someone who has actually installed quads on a 16v i highly doubt that the stock ECU woudl even be able to run the engine. The mapping woudl be way out, and the engine needs FAR less air at idle than it does with a single TB system, which mucks up all the MAP signals.
When i had a vac gauge hooked up to the quads i was barely producing 6in/Hg of pressure at idle, and rapidly rose to no vacuum by about 25% throttle.
The only way that it could be mapped was using the TPS signal as a primary, which neither of the 16v ECUs use as a primary.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 11:52
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I say go for it, if you are going to MS it anyway. Why would the engine need less air at idle? If idle speed is the same, you are only going to need the same amount of air as you were with one TB. I don't see how having four TBs will affect idle.
How well it works would have a large part to do with the way you setup your vacuum lines. If you can get a fairly steady manifold pressure, i think the computer (stock) would do a fair job at keeping the mixtures right at part throttle.
i've seen it on two cars in the states, i'll have a dig through my bookmarks.
dan
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 12:23
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I would be guessing the difference in air at idle would be partially because there is so much more surface area, and since the engine doesn't require much air at idle, the air velocity would be very low, so vacuumn would be also very low.
Dan: if you can find those bookmarks, would be much appreciated 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 13:10
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Awesome. Going by what they are saying on GarageDori, it sounds like it's just the fuel maps that need to be adjusted. They're using SAFC's, which if I'm not mistaken does the same thing as the units that Jaycar sell (this one)? Or does the SAFC do more?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 13:35
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hrmm
i have a bigport ecu and bigport injectors and a safc
and i know someone with quads and an adaptor plate
heh.. maybe i should try the vacumn canister idea?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 14:00
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http://www.ae-86.com/
As i have posted before  , this car is now here in Australia Look at the engine specs and stock ecu , some very clever work there 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 14:03
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vacuum canister will definitely help, but if you have very large cams, that may not be enough..
as far as MS goes, ppl are running quads with as little as 15kpa vacuum at idle and 20-25kpa cruise..
with stock cams, quads will generate a more erratic map signal, but with the right mixture of restriction and .. capacitance.. in the lines, you can still get good results... even something as simple as an inline carby fuel filter works very well
the problem is that the engine thinks it is getting more air, since it sees a higher kpa, and so it should run rich. in turn, the timing will be reduced at part throttle because the ECU thinks it is under load, but at large throttle openings, the timing will be ok anyway.. just may be a little more sluggish at part throttle...
if you can, borrow an MS to datalog map vs rpm and TPS with the stock setup first, so then when you go quads, you can compare the quality of the MAP signal for various throttle openings..
another thing that might be odd is accel enrich.. IF toyota uses TPS only for that, since small throttle changes are actually big (relative to the single throttle) and so there may be slightly lean transitions.. this may be a pain in the arse, but might be ok.. some motors require very little accel (my 4K was running 0.2seconds of up to 8ms enrichment for snapped open throttle.. not much.. was happy with 1-2ms for most throttle changes)
i reckon stuff everyone and give it a go ... if you work out a testing route so that you can relate the TPS, RPM and MAP to certain drivign conditions, then drive the same route later with a wideband in.. it ay not be that hard at all esp if you are only pulling fuel out....
anyhoo, my thoughts...
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 16:34
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Interesting... I am guessing I should think about getting a vacuum gauge or something to see what the MAP sensor is seeing? Then again, would it be useful?
And I'm also guessing that I should think about getting a wideband O2 sensor? I've noticed that MS can run off narrowband or wideband, is there anything wrong with sticking with a narrowband? Or is it just not accurate enough to tune with?
Hmm, money money money, where did it all go...?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 16:51
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yup a vac gauge is useful, but not always easy to read...and i think response is far too slow to tell what is hapening.. most gauges have a small inlet hole (maybe less than 0.5mm) in order to dampen the pulsations.. hint hint
if you can get a datalogging multimeter and put that on the MAP sensors output, you can get data that way..
what you are loking for is not only the absolute value, but also the variation that occurs with each intake event..
idle = sayy 1200rpm = 20rps = 10 intake events per sec..
the MS can datalog at 15-20 events per second, so you can see the pulsations that are occurring (although not perfectly...but you still get a pretty good idea)
MS runs off a widebands driver ciruit output, ie 0-5V, you can't just plug in a wideband.. there ar emanya round that are getting cheaper.. there was one in US for around $400, Bosch LSU4 included.
narrow band ONLY tells you when you pass thru stoich.. and can only say if you are above or below stoich.. when Ira11y and i tuned my car by SOTP dyno, we got to within 5-10% across the whole rev/MAP range.. so you can do it (we were always rich) but is not always the best way...
you could just ave a fiddle, then chuck it on a dyno once you get the MAP issues sorted... can't be that hard to tune an SAFC or similar...
oh and i'm pretty sure you can use 4AG ECU'S to run spark only (as long as inputs are still there) and use MS as fuel standalone.. but SAFC/jaycar thingy prolly do similar job (except for warmup and accel etc enrichments)
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 16:53
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Going the MS way, assuming I just get it to control fuel, that would mean that I'd just disconnect the injector wires from the original ECU and use MS to control them right? What about the sensors? Would I be able to reuse the stock sensors (since there would be 2 computers)? Or would I have to put another set of sensors in for MS to use?
And for vacuum, I would assume the best place to get a feed would be from the manifold itself? On the quad throttles there are 2 lines on the top (cylinder 1, 4), these go to the fuel pressure regulator. Then there are 4 lines on the bottom (one for each cylinder), but they are very very small, and aren't really behind the butterflies at all. I'm not sure what these are used for originally.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sat, 09 July 2005 17:01
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| Quote: |
oh and i'm pretty sure you can use 4AG ECU'S to run spark only (as long as inputs are still there) and use MS as fuel standalone.. but SAFC/jaycar thingy prolly do similar job (except for warmup and accel etc enrichments)
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Yes, have read in some places that 4AG ECU's can run spark only.
Any idea how many inputs the Jaycar unit has? It says:
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It gives you the power to completely tune the air/fuel ratio throughout the entire load range, at 128 load points, providing incredible mapping resolution and brilliant drivability
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So I'm guessing it would take more than just a MAP input? Or is it just a single input and single output (so map 1 value to another)?
Will start looking at wideband options... I'm guessing I'll need to put another bung into the exhaust to plug it in, since I'll have to leave the narrowband one in for the ECU to work?
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sun, 10 July 2005 04:57
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Just read this article from Autospeed and yes, it seems that the Jaycar unit only has 1 input and 1 output.
I wonder if this would be enough to get the fuel mixtures right? I wonder how the Toyota ECU's decide how much fuel to provide - is it only through the MAP readings? Since the Jaycar unit doesn't know what the TPS is reading (or the O2 sensor), I wonder how accurate it can be under all load points?
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Location:
Bathurst
Registered:
September 2004
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sun, 10 July 2005 13:10
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bantech: yes, have seen the T3 one.
Looking up the SAFC, it takes in inputs from RPM, knock sensor, TPS as well as O2 (in addition to the MAP input and output) so I would assume it would work a lot better than the Jaycar one, which wouldn't be able to adjust for different throttle inputs etc.
MS would still be ultimate.
Maybe the first think I should look at getting is a wideband O2 sensor. Then I can decide which other option I want to go with.
Stewart: Any pointers to where I'd be able to get one for a good price? I've heard that some later model Honda's actually come with wideband O2's?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sun, 10 July 2005 22:26
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After seeing the T3 manifolds, I wouldn't even think about trying to build another one. Gabe's stuff is top quality and compared to the effort involved, it's just not worth it.
If you want to run a map sensor, you can get away with it as long as you use a secondary plenum hooked up to all the inlet runners to even out all the vacuum signals. A standard (non-efi) fuel filter in the vacuum line does a great job of smoothing out the vacuum pulses as well. (this might have been covered in one of the above links, I just couldn't be bothered reading them).
We've got it to work nicely on a car with a 264 inlet cam, but, couldn't get enough variation of the vacuum signal on a car with 288's though.
Both times we were using a Haltech.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sun, 10 July 2005 22:57
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In addition with 308* cams we got buckleys variation in the signal at all, and just ditched it.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sun, 10 July 2005 23:12
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After seeing the T3 manifolds, I wouldn't even think about trying to build another one. Gabe's stuff is top quality and compared to the effort involved, it's just not worth it.
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That much effort, and the T3 ones are that good huh? I've gotten stuff from T3 before (short shift kit and neg camber RCAs), they do make very nice stuff...
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sun, 10 July 2005 23:20
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The setup I built must have taken me two weeks of fiddling after work and weekends to get roughly right. If T3 had made them back then, I would have bought it in a heartbeat.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sun, 10 July 2005 23:29
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Interesting. Thanks for that, considering I was planning on doing what you've done, I think I might put the T3 setup on my "list of possible solutions"
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Sun, 10 July 2005 23:32
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| Quote: |
If you want to run a map sensor, you can get away with it as long as you use a secondary plenum hooked up to all the inlet runners to even out all the vacuum signals. A standard (non-efi) fuel filter in the vacuum line does a great job of smoothing out the vacuum pulses as well. (this might have been covered in one of the above links, I just couldn't be bothered reading them).
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Out of interest, does the T3 manifold have any provision for vacuum sensing? If not, where would I pull a MAP reading from? I'm guessing I would need to either modify the throttle bodies or the manifold to allow for this?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 00:03
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I dont have much time to dig out any more photos of my setup, but they are on between page 24 and 29 in my gallery( http://gallery.dysfunction.ws/ ) under Sparky
Thats the best i could scrounge quickly. ill take more photos of the setup tomorrow now that the manifold is off the car.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 00:16
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Takai: Yes, have been through your photo album and saved all the relevant photos I've got a FWD engine as well, so if I get the T3 manifold I guess I'll have to modify the water outlet too.
Another thing I've been wondering (apart from the vacuum for the MAP) with the T3 manifold, is where do you plug your brake booster too? I couldn't really tell from your photos...
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 00:22
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You'll probably have to tap fittings to the manifold to suit your particular setup.
It wouldn't be logical for T3 to try to include fittings as there are so many different setups out there..
If you don't have the tools to tap in fittings, I've just epoxied in bits of tube before and I've never had one fail (devcon is great stuff).
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 02:46
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| demuire wrote on Sun, 10 July 2005 23:10 |
Stewart: Any pointers to where I'd be able to get one for a good price? I've heard that some later model Honda's actually come with wideband O2's?
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the NTK L1H1 is ridiculousl;y expensive.. like US$300-400 or something... this is because ppl started using it for widebands and honda bitched to NTK so now it is exclusively for honda dealers.. or so the story went..
the Bosch LSU4 however can be had for as little as US$30 (1st VW parts site.. linked of MS's PWC site)
there are a number of kits that use the LSU4 (there are different versions of the sensor, however they should be similar enough), such as the Aussie tech edge one, that US one i can't remember (but was just as cheap for a finished product)..
failing that you go for a MoTec lambda meter or similar...
Mr Shins motec lambda meter was very nice to use and very fast response, but output is in lambda
basically, for a cheapy, around $400-500, for the exxy ones, $1000 up...
i am hanging for the PWC. it will be the beesknees
http://www.msefi.com/msinfo/PWC/
but of course, release date is never set in stone 
OH HERE IT IS>>>
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/customer/ home.php?cat=253
US$200 for a wideband including sensor!!!! bloody cheap if ya ask me
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 02:49
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if the PWC is not available when i get back, i will definitely get one of the LC1's.. maybe LM1 if i feel flush
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 04:46
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Stewart: Wow, so much to read, will read more when I get home (I'm at work at the moment) 
Hmm, I always thought "wideband" was the actual sensor itself, but it looks like it's actually a controller of some sort, attached to an 02 sensor? And I'm guessing the O2 sensor is not the same as a narrowband one. With the LC-1 that's for $199, don't you need a display of some sort to go with it? Or I suppose if I had a MS I could plug it into that and use a laptop for display?
All the standalone kits (sensor + gauge) are like, USD400. Ouchy. Had a look at Zeitronix, also $400 for the full kit.
Techedge look alright, AUD499 for the full kit, prebuilt. Or AUD314 for the DIY kit inc sensor.
Hmm...
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 05:13
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| demuire wrote on Mon, 11 July 2005 14:46 |
Stewart: Wow, so much to read, will read more when I get home (I'm at work at the moment)
Hmm, I always thought "wideband" was the actual sensor itself, but it looks like it's actually a controller of some sort, attached to an 02 sensor? And I'm guessing the O2 sensor is not the same as a narrowband one. With the LC-1 that's for $199, don't you need a display of some sort to go with it? Or I suppose if I had a MS I could plug it into that and use a laptop for display?
All the standalone kits (sensor + gauge) are like, USD400. Ouchy. Had a look at Zeitronix, also $400 for the full kit.
Techedge look alright, AUD499 for the full kit, prebuilt. Or AUD314 for the DIY kit inc sensor.
Hmm...
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ok... a WIDEBAND sensor is basically a narrowband sensor with an oxygen diffusion cell around it.
the diffusion cell changes the amount of oxygen getting thru to keep the inside narrowband at the switching point.
the current required to control the amount of oxygen going thru the difffusion cell is controlled by the wideband control circuitry, and the output of this circuit to the outside world is 0-5V..
so it's basically a narrowband with a controllable oxygen filter, but it's the filter that tells you how much O2 there is .. thats why you NEED the control circuit..
that said, there are good and bad designs for control circuitry (for the same sensor)..
the LC1 is just the control circuit, btu you could use either their snayy gauges (they DO look nice ) or you could just as easily use a DMM... or plug it into MS..
US$400 isn't that bad compared to a few years ago when it was only the motec and above versions..
anyway, enjoy reading
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 05:23
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i prefer LC1 neat and simple and prebuilt.. and the gauges are damn snazzy (they exxy) but can be used as an output only, no gauge..
but thats me
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 05:23
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I've got a Techedge (the're just down the road), and it workes very nicely.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 16v 4AGE quad throttles - stock ECU shortcomings
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Mon, 11 July 2005 05:27
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Going by the assumption that the Techedge one has the controller built into the main unit, I wouldn't be able to use it with the MS would I? As in, to plug into the MS?
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