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Location:
ACT
Registered:
December 2002
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rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 08:56
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Has anyone done this???
What 4wd transfer cases (if any!?) would fit in the bay of a 23?
I imagine the hardest part to this is fitting a 4wd box and engine into the small 23 bay?
comments please!!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 08:58
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Sorry i have no informative input
but id just like to say ive never seen this done b4...
i cant believe i never thought about an AWD conversion on a 1st Gen Celica
its a mad idea
good work
Check
Mani
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Location:
MACKAY
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 10:47
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Get a ST 165 motor and box and start cutting and welding , Nothing is impossible ????
Trevor
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Location:
Ipswich QLD
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 11:08
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| TA22-3SGTE wrote on Thu, 06 March 2003 21:47 |
Get a ST 165 motor and box and start cutting and welding , Nothing is impossible ????
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U just need money...
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 11:17
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why stop there.. I'd get a rb26 and go hardcore!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 13:19
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With approximately a bazillion dollars, it could be done. Easy!
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 14:20
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To be really honest, the only way I can see you doing this is to replace the entire running gear of the car. Unless you can do alot of really good fabricating yourself, you'll have to have extremely deep pockets!!!
I would imagine the best layout you could use would be a WRX/Skyline layout (ie north-south engine gearbox behind etc) because I doubt you'd be able to transversely mount anything in a RA23.
I'm not sure how hard it would be to match a subaru style layout to a gt-four engine (to stick with the toyota theme I guess) - anyone else have any thoughts?
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Registered:
June 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 19:56
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If you use a subaru setup a 3S would be sticking out the front.
Have a look at how the subaru gearbox works!! The front drive shafts come out behind the bell housing!!
The only semi sensible way to do it would be a ford siera (or escort)cosworth engine & trans. There would prolly still be some tranny tunnel work!!
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Location:
ACT
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 21:59
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This is good!
OK - to keep the thinking cogs going a little more...
What is the width of the transfer box from a st205? I realise that the front track for a 205 is about 30cm wider than the track of the 23! Now the front drive arms can only be cut by so much - after that there is no vertical travel left for the front wheels!
Would a 165 use a smaller transfer case than a 205? and is this a transverse setup?
What is the story with a early model "tercel"? any use looking at this??
And finally I haven't thought of the wrx as yet... I will look at this a little bit!?!
thanks so far - keep the info going!
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 22:54
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whats your budget?
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 23:07
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Slightly (For that read quite a bit  ) off topic, but I do remember reading about a bloke who did an entire R32 GTR driveline swap into a (very nice looking) VL Calais.
Apparently it was relatively "bolt in"...(In modifiers terms, that means it "only" cost 2 marriages, 3 houses and several people's sanity...  )
Still, a very nice VL when it was done!
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Location:
ACT
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 23:28
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Rob: I haven't really formed one yet as I am not sure what is needed here - not long ago I thought that maybe if I could get a complete front cut gt4 st205 for less then 5k... then the rear driveline for maybe 1k. Then to fit and engineer about another 4k?? with all the bits and pieces, hopefully less then 8k??!
But we'll have to see what fits!!
This is why I am wondering if the tranfer (and engine) from a gt4 will actually fit in the bay of a 22 or 23. I have seen a photo of the transfer case from a 205 - and it looks quite wide - and I am not sure if it will fit in the bay and even between the front wheels!
More info - anyone
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 23:39
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Is there enough room width wise to mount a 3SGTE east-west? (I'm assuming ST205's are east-west?)
If not, you may have to look for something different.
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Registered:
June 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 23:40
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I wouldn't even bother with looking at ST205's etc...
as gearbox donors as they are for an east-west orientation which means you engine will also have the be E-W!! That would be rather hideous in something like a RA2X!! Or any RWD car for that matter!!
You are limited (by common sense) to the Ford or Nissan north-south 4WD setup (both similar).
I'm quite surprised you haven't been burnt alive for suggesting a FWD engine layout in a RA2X by fellow members!!
Most people that even suggest to put 1JZ into them seem to come out with 3rd degree burns.
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Location:
ACT
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 06 March 2003 23:52
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I don't think that it will be totaly hideous as it will come out as a 4wd setup! And an e-w config may be able to push the engine weight back a little rather than being so far forward! this will help weight distribution! Stock ra23 (or 22) has 59% weight over the front as compared to rear!
But the real reason for the conversion is for a 4wd ra23...
Would a drive train from a nissan pulsar 4wd turbo fit in??
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 00:42
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why hasnt anyone mentioned anything about front driveshafts and uni's, and well the whole front end suspension setup?
and also can u keep the existing steering box? if not how do u get a rack in there?
and if you do need to swap and fab parts of the suspension, wont you need access to jigs and other equipment to make sure everything is straight (so to speak)?
unless you have access to neil bates' workshop or are willing to hand the car and a shitload of cash to a reputable engineering/performance shop, then i have to say that your dreaming mate.
i met a guy once who had his stock mitsu lancer converted from 2WD to 4WD with EVO4 running gear, basically a whole rear end had to be fitted, it cost him around $20,000 to do this (and the workshop stole his EVO4 ECU!).
none-the-less it was a f@cking quick car, and what im trying to say (as mentioned earlier) is that if u want this to happen its gonna cost u big time.
0.02c
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Location:
Ipswich QLD
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 00:54
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| rob_RA40 wrote on Fri, 07 March 2003 11:42 |
0.02c
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Nah, probly a lil more champ, lol
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 01:03
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Are we gonna take bets on how much it's gonna cost him?
I'll lay down some money and take a stab at $30k. What are the odds?
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 01:30
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well i cant say much about that converted mitsu as i only saw it twice and rode in it once, but from what i recall
engine was fitted (didnt look like too much trouble)
the fuel tank was cut out and moved to back of back seat
parts of the undercarrage were cut to fit the rear diff and axles
the rear suspension and hubs were welded in (the welds looked quite ordinary to me)
and then there were the miscellaneous things like upgraded fuel system modified gear shift mechanisms, fitting tailshaft etc
all out it went to 2 workshops in the process (each shop doing different parts of conversion) and both workshops managed to break, steal or lose certain parts of the car, mostly interior bits but importantly his facotry ECU 
so thats about $20,000 worth of conversion, the bloke still had to spend money on tuning the car (had to go aftermarket ECU) and also needed a new clutch (just one of those things that needed doing)
i only give this info cause its the only 4WD conversion ive seen in the flesh, some of these things might not be relevant but it may help.
Even tho most of this info seems negative, i have to say the car was an absolute beast. A little while after i got a ride in it i heard from a friend that it was impounded cause he was taking it street racing it.
0.02c plus change
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 02:17
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If you realistically want to do this swap, a tube front end is the only way to go. You then replicate all the factory mounting points from the donor car. Rear axle would be relatively straight forward in comparison.
The main advantage is more factory parts, which makes for a much cheaper conversion and subsequent repair if damaged.
Don't worry if it is E-W or N-S, just find a donor car with similar track. A little wider can be covered by flares.
Callum
PS- Only get a genuine race car engineer to do this sort of work and inspect very closely previous cars they have built.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 02:21
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I'll put mine down at $23000, just to get it on the road
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 02:24
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| Purple_Beasty wrote on Fri, 07 March 2003 12:17 |
PS- Only get a genuine race car engineer to do this sort of work and inspect very closely previous cars they have built.
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See my comment above re "a bazillion dollars".
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 02:29
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Rather than knocking the suggestion (anyone can do that) the real test is can it be done on less than the HRT's budget.
My thinking and this is purely on the surface is yes it could. It would require some pretty trick engineering but it could be done.
The biggest problem is the shape of the celica. It is too narrow to fit an east west engine without a lot of modificationin the engine bay. An independent diff would be located somewhere towards the engine sump. I guess that could be solved if you wanted to use a smaller 4 banger such as a 4A-G. No chance with a six unless you want to go sports sedan style and stick it in the passengers seat.
The WRX engine is out of the question unless you want it sticking out past the grill.
Look at most of the off road 4bies. They manage a North South engine and a diff in there somewhere. Most of them even use a live diff up there. You could just about stick in a 4WD Hilux drivetrain. Front diff location may require some moving though.
I reckon putting a transfer case behind the celica/supra gearbox and using a 4A-G or even a 3S with the sump buldge at the back and an independent front end with the diff off to the passengers side. You would need a drive shaft / axle going under the front of the sump. Front suspension would need to be robbed from say a late model celica. Steering rack might have to go in front of the diff. No real drama there though.
Anyone keen to give it a try?????
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Location:
ACT
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 07:45
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Thanks for all the comments so far!
I would really like to keep it below 30k tho!
But seriously, I had a look at a wrx over lunch - I think that the only way I could use this transfer case is by using the boxer engine as well - I am sure with this combo it will fit in the bay easily.
I still fancy the idea of a gt4 205 (to keep with the toy thing!) but wonder if the transfer will fit between the wheels. I don't doubt that the bay will be a bit tight and perhaps some adjustments are needed here, I still think that if it could fit between the wheels I am half way there! I am aware of suspension and cv etc... So for all of you out there with a 205 please humour me at least and measure up your engine bay area (length of bay, width of bay and width between towers - and where they are located!) and also the width of the transfer case. This would be great! thanks.
Finally, can someone point me in the direction that I may get info on the hilux set up!?
Thanks again!
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 09:28
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why not buy a WRX or GT-R skyline and squeeze the shell of the RA23 over it
Saves alot of trouble.... 
Oh and put me down at getting the thing on road at: $27 403.69
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Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 14:02
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Heres a picture of allwheel drive Corolla
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 19:25
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If a 3SGTE was mounted in an old celica E-W for 4WD, the engine may sit further back, but you'll also have a big ass gearbox & a diff or two with it, so you weight balance would make it way front heavy.
Anyone that was really serious about doing this would know the basics & have a fair idea of how they would do it. That's why it hasn't been done, because everyone that is intelligent enough to know how to possibly get it done also realises how unviable an idea it is.
I'm not the sort of person to knock new ideas, I like to think I have a very open mind, but not with this idea.
If you want a sporty 4WD there are plenty to choose from, and most of them (if not all) would cost less & perform a hudred times better than a converted '23 celica.
If you want an old celica, learn to love RWD.
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Fri, 07 March 2003 20:49
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| BigWorm wrote on Sat, 08 March 2003 08:25 |
If a 3SGTE was mounted in an old celica E-W for 4WD, the engine may sit further back, but you'll also have a big ass gearbox & a diff or two with it, so you weight balance would make it way front heavy.
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If you are using a 4WD donor car wouldn't the weight balance be fairly similar to the donor car? I think this is the point of the exercise, GT4 speed and handling with RA2x style. This sort of thing has been done before but you have to be a lunatic (read that as willing to try something everyone else says wont work) and you have to be willing to cut up a perfectly good early Celica. You need to look at what has been done by guys building hillclimb specials and similar cars, they are often pushing the boundaries a little further than most other race cars.
What usually happens is I have a good body from X car, I just wrote off Y car but the running gear is good. Wonder if I can make it fit?
It is all about doing something different BUT if you want different you need to be aware of the work involved before you start and either have the time or the money (or both) to see it through. If not, don't start or it will be a waste of a good Celica.
A few examples of what have been built here in NZ.
4x6 Mazda 323 turbo (2 yes 2 turbo engines in the front)
1UZFE Sprinter (they made it fit somehow)
4WD Sprinter (I beleive they used a Ford Sierra setup)
Callum
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Sat, 08 March 2003 03:29
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And how good is the weight balance of a GT4? A fair bit nose heavier than an RA23.
Were any of the above mentioned cars done by backyard builders? Or by workshops & race teams?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Sat, 08 March 2003 04:32
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Sorry to Hyjack the thread but
Jayem do you have any more pic's of that rolla?
It looks nuts.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Sat, 08 March 2003 05:34
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this would be an expensive epsiode - but hell would it be nice if it all worked
My money would eb on a GTR skyline running gear setup ( the RB cant be any longer than a 1J - that just fits )
north south motor already - but youd need to completely re engineer the front end ..
back ends easyish - since the mounting points are already there to run rear wheel drive ( obviously )
id love to have a look under that SSV commodore they made into a 4wd recentkly for their spin on a low clearance all wheel drive .
the east west engine setup on a Gt4 would cause issues with clearance id say - plus transfer case/diff setup ..
If i get my GT4 - ill see if i can take some pics underenath it for you - on how the drivetrains set up
Stuart
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I supported Toymods
Location:
south of the big smoke
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Sat, 08 March 2003 11:54
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40k + easy i wreckon
i would just buy a st205 gt4
but if ya did it ya woukld have a lot of new friends
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Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Sun, 09 March 2003 15:44
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| Quote: |
Sorry to Hyjack the thread but
Jayem do you have any more pic's of that rolla?
It looks nuts.
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Noup! I remember to read about that it was based on HiLux chassis but Im not sure. I cant find that article(if it never exist).
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Location:
ACT
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Sun, 09 March 2003 22:16
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Thanks guys!
will let you all know of any further ideas!
And Stuart - Photos of your gt4 (with some basic measurements!) would be great - when you get it of course!
If anyone has anything else keep it coming!
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Tue, 11 March 2003 08:02
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Hey silversup,
Still keen on the W50 gearbox of mine that u sent me a PM about? i did reply to your PM, did u get it?
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Toymods Club Treasurer
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 13 March 2003 01:37
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Has anyone thought to look at what the Japs offer in Toyota 4wds? Just about everything over there is available.
eg the current Crown wagon is available with a 1G or 1J and 4wd (auto only though).
North - south engine, with sump, gearbox, & possibly front suspension to suit.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: rwd to 4wd ra2x conversion
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Thu, 13 March 2003 08:30
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it's hard enough to fir a 1g/1j into an old celica without pondering the added problems of 4wd
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