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st184 sillycar
Forums Junkie

Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004

Re: Front wheel drives

Thu, 01 July 2004 00:44

Damon Wrote:

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st184 wrote:

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How do you know the Rundance Evo has twice the grip? Sure it's AWD, but that only makes time coming off the corners. INTO, and THROUGH the turns, it's all brakes and tyre grip baby!! how much does the Type-R weigh? it could be 200kg lighter than the EVO. As an example, 20kg extra on a Go-Kart costs around 1.3secs/lap !!

The new AYC in the Evo8 is far more advanced than you realise. The ability to put different torque through different wheels offers twice the amount of useable grip than any simple FWD layout.

Actually, I do realise how advanced the EVO's AYC system is. I've seen it referred to as the "hand of God" by journalist test-drivers. That won't magically conjure up extra tyre grip though. It can only put the power-down using the grip not maximised by cornering too. i.e. if you're using all of the tyre's grip to corner, you can't accelerate or brake without breaking traction and sliding/skidding. Read up on the "traction circle" to see what I mean.
-FWD is a lost cause, however a well setup RWD chassis allows the driver to use all of the front tyre's grip to corner, and divide the rear grip between cornering and accelerating. This should be only marginally slower than an equivalent 4WD car (same grip, h.p, weight etc).

Now check this:

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Phillip Island, 2001 Motor BFYB, Cameron McConville Driving:

1. Ralliart Evo V I - 1:53.21 1280kg, 206kw, 6.2kg/kw
2. B M W . M 3 . . - 1:53.72 1570kg, 252kw, 6.2kg/kw
.
11. Nissan 200 sx - 1:58.46 1282kg, 147kw, 8.7kg/kw
15. Integra TypeR - 2:00.42 1087kg, 141kw, 7.7kg/kw
19. Alfa Spider V6 - 2:01.83 1415kg, 162kw, 8.7kg/kw

If 4wd is so bloody good, then why is the RWD M3 only 0.5secs slower than the EVO, which has an identical Power-weight ratio?

And in case you are about to type "it's obviously a horsepower circuit" - see the 3.4 second thumping the RWD 200sx hands-out to the FWD Alfa V6. See also, the 2seconds it whumps the (almost) equally powerful, 200kg lighter Integra by.

Or perhaps:

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Wakefield park, in 2003, with Rick Bates at the helm:

B M W . Z_4 : 1:12.09 1365kg, 170kw, 8.0kg/kw
Mazda RX-8 : 1:12.68 1350kg, 177kw, 7.6kg/kw

Impreza wrx: 1:12.84 1395kg, 168kw, 8.3kg/kw

Renault Clio : 1:14.27 1035kg, 124kw, 8.3kg/kw
Astra Turbo : 1:14.44 1280kg, 147kw, 8.7kg/kw

I know the RWD's have better Power/weight ratios than the others, but the Z4 only packs 2kw more, and 30kg less than the WRX. 4wd would overcome that deficit if it were as incredible as you suggest, Daemon. Note also, how much slower the Clio is than the WRX, illustrating FWD's lack of pace compared to 4WD and RWD.

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ST184 wrote:
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Notice the RWD 550ps S15, which is 3.5secs quicker than a 770ps 4WD R34 GT-R.... By looking at just this information, this would seem impossible!

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Daemon Wrote:
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Read your own advice mate. You talk about weight, then forget everything you just said in the first paragraph. Its all about the ability to set a car up for one super lap.

What I meant was, by your logic + the info you posted, this should be impossible. OBVIOUSLY there's other factors at play. Just pointing out how weak your argument was, that's all.

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Daemon wrote:

All im saying is that, just because its FWD, doesnt mean its a dis-advantage.

And I'm saying that FWD is a BIG disadvantage.

FWD's are cheap and cheerful, just not particularly fast. I have nothing more to say, that I havn't already posted. Feel free to read my previous explanations of why FWD is the "poor cousin" of RWD.

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