Toymods Car Club Inc: Tech & Conversions => 2TG/4AG part 2

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Bill Sherwood
Forums Junkie

Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002

Re: 2TG/4AG part 2	Mon, 03 June 2002 09:22

Well, I thought by writing things in simple sentences that no-one could possibly stuff it up, mis-quote me, or just make stuff up. Yet, we have some champions here. Teenz first. "Bill, your car sounds so very impressive I would be very interested to see an actual Dyno reading for your car not a computer simulation." It has been on a chassis dyno, at Chiptorque last week. It made 84kW but I know that the engine makes more than that. Reasons for this are - I have had the car with the old engine in it on another dyno and I made more power. This is the usual diferences between dyno's, and I'm sure that if I took the car to another one I'd get more like 100kW or so. I also have checked the injector duty cycle and from that they are flowing for for 185hp. This backs up the sim dyno program pretty well, as does the Chiptorque dyno run, as the HP curve followed the simmed one almost exactly. It's also backed up by the fact that it's at least as fast as a WRX in a straight line, possibly not too far of an Sti. How do I know this? Because we've got a WRX that has a kit on it that takes it to STi specs. I know what speed I can get up to on certain straights near my place, and the Sprinter is not very far behind at all. "I think it would be great if you were able to attend both the Weight Watchers Cruise and the Dyno Day so that we all can see the tremendous power of this engine for ourselves. I would gladly relinquish my title to you if the Dyno says even remotely what you claim." I have no plans to drive to Sydney again in the future so that's not going to happen. And I see that you've yet again chosen to ignore my twice posting that a local member(s) can back up what I say. At no point did I say or write "tremendous power". Thanks for strongly inferring that I'm lying, it gives you so much credibility. Not. "I would just like to see some supporting evidence from the manufacturer." So who was first to come up with actual valve sizes, etc? "Well this degenerated in true Bill Sherwood fashion didn't it!" If you mean me being intollerant of people coming up with utter rubbish and unable to read plain English, then yes, that's me. I've made it as easy as I can to understand, several times, yet Rod can't get it through his head that a different engine is a different engine. And if you change a 4AG to match a stroked 2TG then that's fair. It's the sort of knuckle-dragging mentality I'd expect from some of the V-8 loving/4 cyl hating crowd. "Bill just for the record, Rod knows his sh#t. He never states any technical information that is not correct or researched." He hasn't presented any incorrect information here, he just can't understand the apples vs apples concept! I've got no problem with the stuff he's written here, it's fine. "You never did respond to my post, but then again actually appearing at an event and proving your claims is probably out of character for you, we all know what a busy life you lead." Excuse me? Attempting to be a sarcastic smartarse doesn't work if you don't know what you're talking about. I've been rallying on & off since 1984, circuit racing since 1990 and in circuit racing I've run at my classes National championships a number of times and always finished in the top three places. I've qualifed on pole for the Nationals twice, and also beaten professional racing drivers (Terry Sheid) in a faster car then mine. (Mallock Mk31) So yes I do know a little about turning up to an event thank you very much. "As for stooping to the name calling - in my humble opinion - you are the idiot here. Just because someone doesn't bow to the self proclaimed guru of 4AGE's doesn't mean he is the idiot - may a self examination in the mirror would solve this for you." So Rod saying I was talking bullshit is okay then? ("I assume if I cough and it sounds like I said "Bullshit" you will also get my meaning." Being a hypocrite is not okay with me. I called him an idiot for the simple reason that he cannot understand the basic principle of apples vs apples. And having this explained to him a number of times. And when I did give an equal 4AG to compare apples-with-apples with a stroked 2TG then that was either ignored or called not fair. Un-friggen-believeable. And to take the cake you say "the self proclaimed guru of 4AGE's" ... I don't know WTF drugs you are on, but at no point on any forum on any media or in any conversation or by any other means have I ever said that. Stop making stuff up! The problem with Rod is that he conveniently ignores the stuff he doesn't want to see. Like the 7A crank. Like the oversize pistons. Like comparing engines in the same manner as he has. What would you call that? Rod. "2TG has Superior Cam to Valve set up - Shim Under is far better than shim over." Ageed, but as I already explained it isn't important for a road engine as the 4AG doesn't need as large a cam. For a race engine sure, and it adds about $1000 to the cost, roughly. "Squish Area - Limited knowledge all figures suggest it is adequate in both." I've also explain this before as well. The 4AG has good squish areas, the 2TG has none. (though it's been a while since I've seen one, I may well be wrong. From memory they're a plain hemispherical chamber) "Capacity - 2TG has far greater scope for increased capacity" As I wrote before, and yet again is conveniently ignored, using exactly the same way that a 2TG turns into a 3TG, ie, the bigger crank, you can take a 4AGE based engine out to nearly 1900cc's, which is not a lot smaller than a bored and stroked 2TG. Rod claims that a 2TG is still a 2TG because that's what written on the side of the block. What about a 3T with a 2T crank? Does the distorted logic work both ways? Other stuff that I thought of today - - Oil system. The 4AGE has a much better oil pump system, ie the front of the crank arrangment. They also have much better sump designs, and also have a factory windage tray that seems to work quite well. The oil filter cost a lot more though. - Water system. The 4AG has the thermostat comtrolling the water going into the block, and so it'll get up to temperature much faster and also maintain that temperature with much greater consistancy. - Cam drive system Again the 4AG is easier to live with, as they have a belt drive (easy to keep an eye on with mine at least as I don't run a cover) and you can run slotted pulleys to alter the cam timing in less than a minute or two. - Inlet manifolds. Apart from the 20v ones, the 16v ones are rubbish. The 2TG has a big advantage here. MrTA22 ".. increased in capacity more than another then it is that engine which is greater in that respect ..." Once again I have to say that I have already written how easily a 4AG can be made bigger. Don't read half of what's written there to suit yourself. "Bill take your blinkers off!!!" Excuse me, I've owned both types of engine so I've got a pretty good idea. Rod also admits that a four valve engine is better than a two valve, so you are contradicting yourself there in that Rod is agreeing with me on that part, yet you ignore that. Havoc 'How the bloody hell do you compare a 3K to a 3SGE??? What I assume you are saying is that the 3K is the 2TG and the 4AG is the 3SGE... as far as comparing the 2 motors... Sorry Bill... but that is pathetic.." It is pathetic because I never wrote that. Get your facts straight - I was back to comparing apples with apples again to make it remotely fair. I mentioned my 1300cc 3K to compare it with my 1300cc Suzuki. I mentioned the 1998cc to compare with a 1950cc or so 2TG. Rod still wanted to run a mis-match for some reason, so I did exactly the same thing, ie, used an engine about 25% bigger. That'd be something like a 4VZ-FE. If Rod wants to compare apples with oranges, then I'll play that game too. But he's a little mixed up with identifying his fruit .... ! "Does MR20V have a 240hp 4AGE???????.... I dont think so... I will be very impressed if you can get a smooth idle..." Where did I say or infer that he did have a 240hp 20v? Why do you bring 240hp into it? My 230hp engine hasn't even been built yet, so like the people above you are either not reading what I've written or are just making stuff up. Just for you, I'll write it again -> The engine in my car is about 185hp and that's the one that Haydn went for a ride in. Got that? Haydn was very impressed with how the car went, saying that it was MUCH quicker than his car, even though there was three of us in mine. (Shaneo2 was there as well. I also wrote that before but ...) All three of us are at leat 100kgs, so not light at all. Got that? I also drove the car around at about 1200rpm in each gear to show them how sedate it can be. Got that? It idles between 1100 - 1200rpm with a slight lump to the idle. Got that? "I'm not going to keep going.. Bill, Rod was simply comparing the stock and potential of the 2TG and 4AGE... you came in with V6's, 3SGE's' and even the humble 3K.. enough said" Yes, I mentioned all of those, but if those who argue don't bother with a thing called context then anything is possible. Here ya go, I'll mention Space Shuttle. You can quote me on that one ... no doubt out of context. Since you lot are not capable of coherant argument, I will not reply here further other than to correct the mistakes that people will no doubt next make about what I've written. [Updated on: Mon, 03 June 2002 09:26] [Report message to a moderator]

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