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oldcorollas
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Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
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January 2003

Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86

Tue, 01 November 2005 07:50

AE86slut wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 16:20

oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 16:05

you say it's faster? prove it.

Of course this doesn't apply to most classes of racing, but take a look at any Japanese N2 class races from the mid eighties. There's a reason why Tsuchiya was so successful and blew everyone away with his style - he was letting the car drift around corners to overtake or take lines through the apex that were not possible while grip driving at the same speed. I'm not saying it's universally quicker, but it can be.

there is a BIG difference between a tyre sliding a few extra percent, and SPINNING the tyres at a large angle of attack. i think he was not drifting as such... drift will let you move wider on the track, but in itself is not faster...

drift in circuit racing is powerslide....
drift as in dorifto is about high angles of attack, spinning the tyres lots, and stylishly linking turns.. no?

i like drift. i think it is a motorsport, but i think that any sport with subjective judging is difficult.. which is why i compare it to synchronised swimming (and the two car dualing thing.... why don't they have 5 or 10 cars on the track at the same time anyway Wink

)

so how is CAMS determining who is the winner? usually it's first past the post, but as said, it's not about driving fast, and not about number of laps... how do you regulate judging for "style"???? (please.. i'd like to know what mechanism there is for adjudicating disputes betweeen winners)

bikes are a bit diffferent... sliding rear wheeel into corner is a style thing, but if you have seen bikes stopping hard, you have seen them LIFT the rear tyre off the deck.. this is because there is so much front weight transfer, that i would suggest it is hard NOT to slide the rear tyres going into a corner on a bike...

and as for powersliding out... bike tyres accelerating out of corners is still a very complex subject. the angles that the tuyres are on makes for a complex dynamic contatc patch , where the outside and inside of contact patch are at different speeds.. but if a bike slid round a corner like dorifto boys do, the will fall down. ie, if they are smoking up the rear tyre around a corner.. they will fall down...
unless they are going much slower, and the bike is much more upright..

talk to tyre companies. there is an ideal slip angle at which the tyre makes the maximum grip. this is something like 5% or so for race tyres.. to get best grip you MUST be slipping the tyre that much. this means that when getting best grip, the tyre is slipping a little, and wears.
excessive tyre wear in circuit racing is due to overheating, making the rubber softer and wearing too fast... (a generalisation but nonetheless...)

spinning tyres and putting forces from tyre to track are completely seperate situations Wink

....

a top fuel drag car only has to have tyres last about 5 seconds, yet they deliberately LIMIT the amount of slip the tyre gets to maximise traction.
if the tyres spn freely, they stop accelerating.... have you seen a top fueler spin tyres at about 1/3rd track? instead of accelerating at 3-5G's, they suddenl;y accelerate at maybe aroudn 1G, and they appear to suddenly hit a wall.... i used to see that very often.

in a circuit car, if they overpower the tyres and they spin freely around a corner, the rear of the car will slide out...

i remember seeing the ricciardelo (sp? Confused

) car accelerating off the last corner at oran park lap after lap... getting light, lighting up the tyres and drifting toward the wall.. leaving long black lines... he was overpowering the tyres, spinning too much, but in that situation, if he had gotten offf the gas, the front weight transfer would have upset the balance of the car... he was not sideways drifting.

Quote:

Drifting is slower.. but on a twisty tight downhill corner more speed can be carried through with slight oversteer.
Even on the tarmac evnets in rallying they are very sideways most of the time

slight is the word... abotu 5% Wink

or else you could go faster... sideways feels faster but is not.

rally is a fair bit different, and much closer to drifting in the wet.
ont he tarmac tracks, they actually slide very little.. montecarlo?? sometimes they deliberately slide to set up the entry angle to the next corner without having to reposition the car, but having 500Nm of torque and 4WD with supersoft tyres allows this...
on gravel and snow, it is a completely different dynamic to flat tarmac. you should know that.

Quote:

Cos drifting isnt about laps, its about high entry speed and high angle.
OC's argument that when one car is oversteering around the corner it is passed by another car that is "gripping" around the corner is correct, cos drifters do not care one iota about getting the power down to exit a corner.
Which makes me wonder why OC keeps referring to lap times, it just isnt relevant to drifting. But Im sure he knew that, after all, he seems to know so much about everything else.

but you see, if they had such high entry speed (ie similar to circuit cars) and then slide.. they would go off the track. circuit car has HIGHER entry speed. the angle and the reduction of rear grip reduces the overall speed that can be carried into a corner... if they had so much grip, they wouldn't need to countersteer to stop the arse end spinning around Wink

seee.. this all came about because ppl keep sayign that a drift car needs as much grip as a circuit car.

but as you say, exit speed is not important, thus regardless of high much grip the car is capable of, a drift car negates that by spinning the tyres and sliding the tyres at a greater angle than gives them maximum grip. simple as that

lap times are not relevant to drifting, because you are not worried abotu the speed of the car, only the style (entry speed, angle of attack etc). if a drift car generated as much G forces as a circuit car, and you could drift as fast as a circuit car, then they WOULD be timed.

it is simple that drifting with style SLOWS YOU DOWN... but going fast is not the point of dorifto, and i know that..

all i am trying to say is:
a drift car does not have the same amount of grip (ie force exerted ont he road) when it is sliding and countersteering at a high angle of attack, compared to if it was driven as a circuit car without sliding.
the simple maths is, if it was going as fast and had as high forces exerted, by F=MA, it would be just as fast as a circuit car.
but they are not Wink

and regardless of how you set up your dorifto car (for max circuit grip or whatever), as soon as you slide at greater then the tyres ideal slip angle you are REDUCING GRIP.

a circuit car at the limit of it's adhesion is twitchy. this is unsuitable for a drift car which neeeds to be "in control" when it is "out of control", so you set it up to have a lower ultimate grip, but be mroe stable.... like widening the powerband of a mator.. less peak, but more ddrivable...

Quote:

hey why doesn't some one do a back to back at a circuit? a timed lap, one lap the car is drifting the next the car is driving...'normally', it would be interesting to see the outcome. same driver(obviously need someone good at both types of racing) same car...timed

because bro, it's not about lap times bro, it's about fooly sik style Wink

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