| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
|
 Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 10:52
|
 |
What is the ideal size for the runners going to the turbo? I have a 3TGTE and will be putting a T3 turbo onit.
I will be using steambends to make it!
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 11:29
|
|
I cant help you at all but I would like some photos of the process if you can! I hope to be making a manifold myself soon and need as many hints as i can get! The main touble I will have is merging the 4 runners to the turbo flange.
Anyway good luck.
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 11:31
|
|
|
I will take plenty of pics! i would like to know what size tonight so that i can buy the pipes tomorrow!!
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 11:36
|
|
|
I would think that inside diameter of the steam pipe should be the same as the ports! This is what I'll be doing anyway.
|
|
|
Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 11:49
|
|
There's lots of opinions on this topic, generally the smaller they are the faster the exhaust gas moves & the sooner the turbo spools up.
I'd go port size or a little bit smaller.
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 11:59
|
|
from all the info i have just found and read i will go port size!
thanks for the responses 
if anyone else has an opinion feel free to let me know
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 12:07
|
|
|
I haven't tried it (I sure will in time though), but my understanding is that fairly small certainly does increase gas velocity, but doesn't seem to harm power too much, so long as all the insides are smooth, with no protrusions from welds etc. Lots of time with the die grinder in other words!
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 12:22
|
|
|
I will purge weld them so that should stop any of the weld being rough on the inside and save a lot of time with the diegrinder
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 12:30
|
|
|
Please explain what purge welding is?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 12:43
|
|
Ok, here is my theory on the subject,
Use steampipe that is as close as you can find to the exhaust ports of your engine (inner circumperence of pipe close to the inner circumference of your exhaust ports in the case that they are not perfectly circular) but make sure you chose the closest size smaller than your ports. according to an idea i have discussed with somebody, this will aid turbo spool by increasing the exhaust gas velocity (maybeye, can't hurt)
Get a plate laser cut to fit your exhaust ports/exhaust studs etc
flare out the ends of the pipe to the size of your exhaust ports/new laser cut flange.
make your manifold, enuring that the pipes leave the flange as straight as possible, don't make any sudden bends, make the pipes roughly the same length and come back together all pointing straight in the same direction.
Get another flange cut (this one coudl be cut with oxy or whatever and cleaned up, not so dimensionally important as the exhaust manifold flange) for the turbo to bolt to, weld a collector pipe from all 4 primary pipes and then weld the turbo flange to the end of this.
If you are going to be using a twin entry turbine, pair cylinders one and two to both enter one "hole" and cylinders 2 and 4 to enter the other hole.
there you go, hope this is helpful, if i was going to make a turbo manifold, this is almost exactly what i would do.
will
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
|
Location:
MACKAY
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 12:49
|
|
I have a 3SGTE in my TA22 an made my exhaust manifold with 1 1/4" steam pipe and bends and this seams to work quite well ( 260 RWKW on 21PSI Boost ) , I also made a exhaust manifold for a 4AGTE with 1 1/4" steam pipe which works well , After reading some info on the pipe sizes which recommends using 1" pipe for higher velocity gases and earlier spooling I decided to make another manifold for the 4AGTE using 1" pipe , after fitting this new manifold to the 4AGTE it actually spooled up about 800 RPM later and lost power , So I guess smaller pipes doesn't work on all motors .
Trevor
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 12:49
|
|
Dunno that flaring cast pipe works too well... maybe I'm wrong? Personally I'd leave it, and hit it with the grinder later.
Also laser cutting is overrated - I get stuff profile cut and it's fine, and a lot cheaper too! Note that most of the really expensive aftermarket manifold makers use profile cutting - properly done theres nothing wrong with it. Besides, so long as the port holes line up, the plate has to be surface ground anyways!
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 13:11
|
|
Steampipe isn't cast as far as i know (it could be??), and if it is then use someething that isn't. should be easier to weld too, no need for low hydrogen rods.
good points on the cutting, how exactly is profile cuting done? with a mill or what?
|
|
|
Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 23:21
|
|
|
Probably worth forming the end of the runners to the same shape as the exhaust ports.
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 03 March 2003 23:24
|
|
Hi there
What the others have said is pretty much on the mark (I've just finished a set of pipes for my 4.5 litre 6 cyl 1FZ-FE landcruiser motor-split pulsed, roughly equal length)
A couple of things to note
Steam pipe (also known as black pipe) is cast.
You won't be able to flare the pipe (way too thick).
Use a diegrinder once welded to match the port shape-there will be plenty of metal.
MIG is fine for welding-just turn the amps right up (it's nice and thick so don't worry about burning through)-alhough if you have access to a TIG or better they are neater.
Keep the bends nice and smooth.
If this is a street car-don’t worry about equal length to the turbo, simply keep the runs to your blower as short and smooth as possible and pay attention to merging them smoothly prior to the turbo flange. If your going to run a split pulse blower-merge the two pipes for each of the inlets before the plate so you only have one pipe to weld to the plate for each split pulse hole.
Keep in mind that equal length may be better for outright power-but early response is much better for the street.
As for the plates-just make sure they are nice and thick (15-20mm) and bolt them/it to a head or something stiff during welding to prevent them warping too much.
Where are you getting the pipe from?
Have fun, and patience is the key.
Sean
Adelaide
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Tue, 04 March 2003 08:56
|
|
|
I used 1 1/4" steam pipe for my 4AGTE, as its the closest size UP from the exhaust ports.
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Tue, 04 March 2003 10:33
|
|
I ordered 11/4 in steam bends today.im getting them from blackwoods at trade through work.
i will be useing a tig to weld them as im a sheetmetal worker.
cool1: purge welding is where you have gas running through the pips when you are welding them, the gas you use is the same as what you weld with, in the case of tig it is argon.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Tue, 04 March 2003 11:38
|
|
will TIG give you enogh weld penetration? i thought an advantage of using thick pipe is that you can use a stick welder quite easily.
might be worth looking into using thick-walled mild steel tube? then you can shape it fairly easily with an oxy and big hammer.
at least you have the rest of your exhaust sorted out (having acess to a tig) go for 4 inch pipe, if it will fit under your car.
could you post some pics of the bends? it would be good to have for reference.
|
|
|
Location:
Perth
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Tue, 04 March 2003 12:25
|
|
|
TIG will give you more than enough weld penetration. TIG has better penetration than MIG due to its hotter arc. Depending on the thickness of the pipe wall, you may need to have a root run(first run)and another run over the top for added strength.
|
|
|
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Tue, 04 March 2003 20:02
|
|
MS-75: I wouldn't mind seeing some pics of your manifold if you've got some. You don't see many pics for 6cyl turbo headers.
Shinybluesteel: might be worth looking into using thick-walled mild steel tube?
That would be good to know also as it's much easier to work with!
I guess the bends won't be easy to come by though!?!?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
|
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Tue, 04 March 2003 20:32
|
|
I don't see why you couldn't do that, not a bad idea if you not the best welder.
I know the mandrel bends are easy to come by.
But in thick wall mild steel?? 1 1/2" pipe with 3-4mm walls!!!
Most mandrel bent stuff that small will be 1.2-2mm wall thickness.
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Wed, 05 March 2003 00:38
|
|
You can tack the black pipe together with an arc easily (I actually did the final welding of the two split pulsed sections with an arc)
Just be careful with the order you put it together so you don't end up with joins that you cant get to to weld. As a rule-if it's hard to see, it's hard to weld!
As for cost-the black pipe bends from a good supplier should be between 3 and 6 bucks each (available in 45deg, 90deg (short and long radius), 180deg (s+l). Just a note on mild steel mandrels for a manifold-It will rust out pretty fast-if you're using mandrels, stick to stainless. You can also get black pipe in stainless (not really needed though).
In adelaide, the place is Barnett industries (all sorts of good stuff! and cheap too)
I'll put some pics up of the 6 cyl manifold when daddy-o gets them off the memory stick at his work.
Cheers
Sean
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Wed, 05 March 2003 08:41
|
|
|
Hiya, I did exactly the same thing to my 3tgt (using a bb t3 from a vg30 engine). The guys that put it together are very knowledgeable with this sort of thing and used 1.25 inch steampipe bends. Another friend who has a well worked 3tgt did a lot of research into what would be the best diameter to use and decided to go for 1.25 inch as 1 inch was just a bit too samll for the area of the ports. There certainly doesn't seem to be any problem with the velocity of the gasses through this diameter and you get a nice flow for wot at the top end (though the bb turbo helps and wastegate pipes are pretty important to the overall flow, I have mine seperated for about 2 feet). I think I have a few pictures on the computer at home, if you want to get an idea of what you could do let me know and I'll send them to you. Good luck, Chris.
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Wed, 05 March 2003 12:18
|
|
you cant go past the steam pipe for a turbo manifold! sure, mild steel is easy to work with, but unless you use extensive external bracing, it will not stand up to the thermal stresses of expanding & contracting repeatedly. Steam pipe is a bitch to work with, but do it once & do it properly, you wont be disappointed  I paid $3.80 per bend RETAIL. I reckon thats damn cheap.
Hey Chris, what's the diameter of the 3TG's exhaust ports? (I cant remember since I ditched mine!)
Cheers
Phil
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Wed, 05 March 2003 12:27
|
|
Hey Chris i'll get them pictures off ya.
shanej@iinet.net.au
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Wed, 05 March 2003 13:37
|
|
|
Yeah, the steampipe seems like a good thing - when I made my manifold, I got the only bends I could get at the time, stuck it together with the arc, did a bit of finishing with the MIG, and for under 50 bucks, job done. Paid another 50 to have it surface ground, used it for a while and found it fine. After that, I ended up getting it ceramic coated, and it puts up with regular glowing bright red without any cracks or anything.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Wed, 05 March 2003 13:43
|
|
|
Whats surface grounding?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Wed, 05 March 2003 19:54
|
|
|
chris i sent you a PM i wouldn't mind those pix either please
|
|
|
Location:
Perth
Registered:
August 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Thu, 06 March 2003 03:22
|
|
Can you use hydraulic piping?? It is high strength steel and can be found in 3.2mm thick walls for 1 1/4 diameter pipe.
Where do you get steampipe from?? Is it simply extra thick mild??
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Thu, 06 March 2003 09:31
|
|
Cool1:surface grinding is where the manifold is put on a mill and has the face that bolts to the head and also the one that bolts to the turbo, machined to make them flat again as they will warp slightly when they are welded.
BTW my work has a mill and the machinest said he would do mine for me
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Thu, 06 March 2003 09:41
|
|
|
Ahhh ok, I thought thats what it was.
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Thu, 06 March 2003 11:09
|
|
MrShin:
What coating did you get, the matt black one, or the shiny silver? Competition coatings said that the matt black finish bonded better to turbo exhaust parts at high temperatures, but i've seen it flake off. Did they do the outside only?
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Thu, 06 March 2003 13:17
|
|
|
I got the black one from HPC. They said they were only going to do the outside when I gave it to them, but the inside sure looked done to me when I got it back, and it's still showing no signs of rusting so it must have been done.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Thu, 06 March 2003 19:29
|
|
|
mrshin, what sorta money for the coating out of interest?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
fairfield NSW
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Thu, 06 March 2003 21:02
|
|
i'll be having a shop soon custom-make a turbo manifold for my 4AGE (turbo is used BBGT28). what i was told that steam pipes are expensive and a better alternative is mild steel (im on a budget so i dont want to spend too much money). the shop advised against using stainless steel as it cracks easier due to higher temps...
i know for certain that you'll most likely need some sort of brace to hold the turbo up onto the manifold so the weight of the turbo wont crack the manifold either.
i have a question though, how did it cost for the 1.25 inch steam pipe manifold to custom-make?
i got quoted for my mild steel turbo manifold (aswell as aluminium intercooler piping) roughly $600-700. is this a good price?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Thu, 06 March 2003 22:07
|
|
600-700 seems quite expensive for mild steel! in steampipe that would be fair enough!
steampipe is much better than mild steel - mild steel will rust out and not last the distance - steampipe will.
stainless steel can be used, but you may have issues with it - the rate at which it expands/contracts with regard heat in relation to your head/turbo is quite different and you may have issues.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Fri, 07 March 2003 11:42
|
|
here is something i have been thinking about while following this (very interesting and informative) thread.
If steam pipe is cast (iron, or steel or whatever)
then what do you use for the flanges? i'd assume that you would use mild steel for the flanges, but this wouldn't weld to the cast steampipe would it?
can you get cast flat plates of metal that has a similar metallurgical makeup to (cast) steampipe?
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Fri, 07 March 2003 13:45
|
|
joyride:
$100 per cylinder in steam pipe would be a good price, not $600-$700 for mild steel! its gonna cost you extra for fabricating the braces to hold the mild steel one anyway, which you dont need for steam pipe.
shinybluesteel:
There is no problem welding mild steel flanges to steam pipe. Its done regularly, the casting of the pipe is obviously of reasonable quality. I have seen mild steel flanges/pipes welded to high quality cast manifolds & dump pipes also, such as the turbo manifolds on Nissan RB20/25/26/30's.
Phil
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Sun, 09 March 2003 14:22
|
|
100 a cylinder eh? i should get my act together and start making them.
TE72_Turbo - thanks a lot man, i supose the corrosion wouldn't be such a problem in the flanges as they don't come into contact with the exhaust gas so much.
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
|
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 10 March 2003 22:21
|
|
Looks good!!
Is that the finished size of the turbo inlets in the 2nd photo??
I thought they would be bigger.
How thick are the flanges??
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 10 March 2003 23:06
|
|
The flanges are 15 for the engine end and about 19 at the blower end. The holes in the plate are matched to the holes in the blower (1.00 exhaust housing with P-trim wheel)-yeah-not all that big, I thought the same when I got it. The next size housing up has much bigger holes though (1.15 I think?) I'll probably go bigger in the next year-but for the initial stages it should do fine. (ie-scare the crap out of me.....)
Also-after reading a bit and talking to a few guys-I recon a slightly different design would be a little better-and much easier to make. (more like a split-pulsed log style manifold)
Sean
Adelaide
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Tue, 11 March 2003 04:28
|
|
nice work, i hove you filed out the turbo entry on the left before you bolted the turbo on. i couln't be bothered grinding the pipe welds, but it looks good.
i think i read the same thread as you (pf) and would love to see the differing results from a log style manifold in a back to back comparison.
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2004
|
|
Re: Need help with turbo headers!!
|
Mon, 05 July 2004 08:51
|
|
| Quote: |
I paid $3.80 per bend RETAIL. I reckon thats damn cheap.
|
Phil - Where did you get the bends so cheap. I rang an exhaust place today and they wanted 11 bucks a bend. I just want some cheap stuff that won't crack. Does anybody know the compostion of this steam pipe.
I wouldn't have thought the bends would be as much as $11 each
If you've yused 10mm plate is it really that necessary to mill it flat afterwards? When you put a set square on it was it all out of wack?
Thanks
ben
|
|
|
