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Location:
GA
Registered:
March 2005
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20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 03:56
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Ok now I am having a huge problem right now. I want to do an engine swap on my 86 but dont know what I want to do. I am stuck between getting a $2400 AE111 20V Blacktop and building it up, or getting the $1800 AE92 GZE and ripping the supercharger off and doing a built turbo set up. Money is kind of an option, I only want to spend $5K on extras for the motor, which ever i get. So its eigther a AE111 20v blacktop with $5K invested into building it or a AE92 GZE with a $5k turbo setup. Please give me some input on this thing. I dont know which would have a power advantage in HP or torque so please give me some feedback, what could $5k do? THANKS
By the way my names David McNamara and I am from Atlanta GA for everyone who dosent know me from:
MR2OC
Club 4AGE
LS1 Tech
Team Integra . Net
ect... the list could go on.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 04:54
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GZE with 5K invested would haul ass.
Search these forums for 4AGTE or 4A-GTE.
A number of people have converted GZE's to GTE's, spending various amounts of $$ obviously.
Some people here have over 200KW from the 1.6 !
heaps of info on this in these forums, just have a search and read everything 
-Adam
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 06:33
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Get a gze and turbo it! dont even bother with the 20V if its power you want!
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Location:
NSW, East Coast
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 08:53
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| dtmcnamara wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 14:56 |
Ok now I am having a huge problem right now. I want to do an engine swap on my 86 but dont know what I want to do. I am stuck between getting a $2400 AE111 20V Blacktop and building it up, or getting the $1800 AE92 GZE and ripping the supercharger off and doing a built turbo set up. Money is kind of an option, I only want to spend $5K on extras for the motor, which ever i get. So its eigther a AE111 20v blacktop with $5K invested into building it or a AE92 GZE with a $5k turbo setup. Please give me some input on this thing. I dont know which would have a power advantage in HP or torque so please give me some feedback, what could $5k do? THANKS
By the way my names David McNamara and I am from Atlanta GA for everyone who dosent know me from:
MR2OC
Club 4AGE
LS1 Tech
Team Integra . Net
ect... the list could go on.
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Although a 20v blacktop with 5k invested would be totally awesome, not to mention the sound, i dare say a T28 from a SR20 with a aftermarket ecu and monster cams, say around 288deg,
would dead set haul arse.
But i doubt the standard t-series and t50 would take that sorta punishment.
Personally id got take the atmo N/A road, just to be a little different.
Cheers
Steve
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 11:07
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my opinion: KEEP IT N/A
but thats just me.
a mate of mine says do not get the AE 92 gze because the power rating is less than that of the AE 101 or the AE111 gze. although he still says NA.
he just spent $7000 on his silver top and got 200+HP at the flywheel on an engine dyno. now thats cool. and its NA! 
he says he will build one for you of your willing to spend that kind of money 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 11:15
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4agte
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Location:
Campbelltown, NSW
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 11:32
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be a little differant dude,
go N/A
NOLAN
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Location:
GA
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 11:46
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i have time to play around with ideas. I got a buddy of mine that can do all the building up. But I have a question. If I were to bore and sleve a Black top 20V coult I turbo it and run lets say 15-20psi? I know the 20v arent ment to turbo, but why is this? I would be willing to bore sleve and redo all stock internas. Would this be something worth investing in or is it still pointless to turbo this?
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 12:01
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i know a guy who spent $$$ on a 20v turbo, while the car goes hard, even he says the engine wont last, it has to do with the higher compression and the intake cam, but you can do it.
you gotta drop the compression real low, about 7:1. this can be done with decompression forged pistons and a layered stainless 1.5 - 2mm head gasket cause 15- 20 psi is a fair amount of boost. while you at it, forged rods and a blueprinted crank and block to minimise clearances. bla bla bla the dollars roll on!
if you do it, it should make around 300 - 350 rw Hp using something like a ball bering GT 30 from GCG.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 12:12
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| screech wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 22:07 |
he just spent $7000 on his silver top and got 200+HP at the flywheel on an engine dyno. now thats cool. and its NA!
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Personally, i see spending 7k to get 200hp at the fly a massive waste of money.
You could get so much more if you built a 4agte!
either way, it will always be personal choice.
Good luck with it.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Fri, 18 March 2005 12:25
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| screech wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 23:01 |
you gotta drop the compression real low, about 7:1. this can be done with decompression forged pistons and a layered stainless 1.5 - 2mm head gasket cause 15- 20 psi is a fair amount of boost. while you at it, forged rods and a blueprinted crank and block to minimise clearances. bla bla bla the dollars roll on!
if you do it, it should make around 300 - 350 rw Hp using something like a ball bering GT 30 from GCG.
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Im not sure where you pulled that compression figure from but i would have to say you are wrong.
I have done all the things you have said and i run 20psi at a compression of 8:1. Even that is too low. You would be best to go for a compression of about 8.3:1
And as for that turbo.......i would say a little to big for a quick street car. You need something a little smaller.
With the set up that you have mentioned(compression/turbo) the car would drive like an absolute pig till you hit full boost which would be around the 5-6k mark!
If i may, i would sugest an s15 turbo and a compression of about 8.3:1. I ran a set up like that and was able to get 177kw atw. It had good response and little lag. A very good street car with lots of power.
Good luck with it all.
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Location:
GA
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Sat, 19 March 2005 21:19
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Well how about this. I was talking to Bill Strong of Strong Motorsports over in the MR2OC and he pushed me more towards a 3SGTE swap. He was telling me that the limits for the 20v and GZE are under 500hp before you need to get into some extensive head work and I am not really looking into do a lot of head work. He tole me that with under $3K I can get a good engine and a bold on turbo and get 300HP easily. This would be ideal. Now 500HP is my goal so I would guett another $1-2K would get me in there so for about $4-5K total, I would be in heaven. I just need to talk to some people with a 3SGTE in there AE86. Also then I need an aftermarket ECU and a few other things, but Bill told me that I probably be extreamly happy with this set up. Anyone know someone with a 3SGTE AE86?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Sun, 20 March 2005 00:10
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nope, but Shane (cool1 from these forums) is doing a 3s-gte into an old celica at the moment, and you'll have many of the same problems in converting your 3s to rwd.
And of course if you're after 500bhp you go for the 3s, but the 4a-gte can give you 180rwkw reasonably easily and is an easier/cheaper conversion.
Have you thought about if you really want/need/can use 500bhp in a 900kg car?
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Location:
NSW, East Coast
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Sun, 20 March 2005 00:34
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| dtmcnamara wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 22:46 |
i have time to play around with ideas. I got a buddy of mine that can do all the building up. But I have a question. If I were to bore and sleve a Black top 20V coult I turbo it and run lets say 15-20psi? I know the 20v arent ment to turbo, but why is this? I would be willing to bore sleve and redo all stock internas. Would this be something worth investing in or is it still pointless to turbo this?
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Im thinking rods and bearings to light and not strong enough for standard compression and forced induction, reliablly.
What ever path you choice, remember gearbox and diff options. These add $$$ to the built up.
Cheers
Steve
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Sun, 20 March 2005 00:34
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i read about 1 in an old issue of HOT 4s, a mexican fire orange one. had a 3SGTE fitted and the article told of complication upon complication. but the end result being a very quick car. cant remember the gearbox he used though.
other than that, i havent heard of one with this setup.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Sun, 20 March 2005 03:50
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If your target is 500hp then its my opinion the 4A's arent your best bet. Go SR or CA if you want that sort of power.
Also If you want to turbo a 4A, the best bet is either ae92 or ae101 gze.
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Location:
GA
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Sun, 20 March 2005 17:25
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well as a lot fo people would say, shoot high because if you fall short you will still have something nice. I mean if I try for 500 and only get 400 then its still a DAMN fast car. Also over in the 4ag fourms theres a guy building a 700hp AE86 so if he can reach 700 I think 500 on a stock block with a new head pistons and everything else wouldn;t be too hard. Also its just that need for speed that always gets me. So lets shoot for 500. Even if I just get 300 its still gunna beat the pants off a lot of cars out there.
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Sun, 20 March 2005 23:40
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| screech wrote on Sun, 20 March 2005 11:34 |
i read about 1 in an old issue of HOT 4s, a mexican fire orange one. had a 3SGTE fitted and the article told of complication upon complication. but the end result being a very quick car. cant remember the gearbox he used though.
other than that, i havent heard of one with this setup.
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John K on these forums has a very nice 3SGTE Sprinter. If it's what you want to do, there's no avoiding the headaches involved. Any W-series gearboxes can be used if you can get your hands on a 2S bellhousing.
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Location:
GA
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Mon, 21 March 2005 02:32
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i plan on using a supra w57/58 gearbox with a 2s bellhousing and a 2c starter. Then with a hilux rear dif. Hopefully this will workout to be great.
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Banned Again
Location:
Mt AKINA
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Mon, 21 March 2005 02:52
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You could try for a 3T-GTE conversion...
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Location:
GA
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Mon, 21 March 2005 02:53
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3T-gte?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Mon, 21 March 2005 02:59
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| dtmcnamara wrote on Mon, 21 March 2005 04:25 |
well as a lot fo people would say, shoot high because if you fall short you will still have something nice. I mean if I try for 500 and only get 400 then its still a DAMN fast car. Also over in the 4ag fourms theres a guy building a 700hp AE86 so if he can reach 700 I think 500 on a stock block with a new head pistons and everything else wouldn;t be too hard. Also its just that need for speed that always gets me. So lets shoot for 500. Even if I just get 300 its still gunna beat the pants off a lot of cars out there.
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700hp from a 1.6L?
lemme see... thats 490Nm..
or in US speak, minimum of 29psi (with very high efficiency)
an that's at 10,000rpm..
at a more "sane" 8000rpm = 614Nm = 42psi (and high efficiency)
500hp ~ 370kw would still be a dyno queen. imag8ine the lag, and then imagine how far ahead a car with no lag would be every time you change gears 
are these some special US units of power measurement? or are we talking normal hp?
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Location:
GA
Registered:
March 2005
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Mon, 21 March 2005 03:10
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umm thats a 3sgte not a 4ag, its 2l
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Mon, 21 March 2005 03:24
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well. thats a 3S to start, not 4A, if you were referring to the 3S when talking about 700/500, then i misunderstood.
even so, 750hp from a 3S in AE86 is a project (no offence to Jon intended). notice how quickly the thread degenerated into a rim and flare discussion? but aaaaanyway.
motor + turbo does not automatically = power potential of turbo , nor does it mean it will be driveable/useful.. it's a little more complicated than that.
this started as a 20V vs GTE conversion for US$5K, but now we are talking 500+ HP?
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Location:
GA
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Mon, 21 March 2005 11:30
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what kind of problems have you heard of from the 3SGTE. I have been working with MK1 and MK2 MR2's for about 2 years now and never heard/had a problem with the 3S engine.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Tue, 22 March 2005 03:23
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only referring to the complications with fitting the 3sgte as talked about previously..
i think the 3sgte itself is a great engine i have seen a few very powerful examples..
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Location:
GA
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 20V Blacktop vs GZE Turbo
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Tue, 22 March 2005 06:29
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what I think I am going to do is get the 4AGZE becasue of how much cheaper it will be to install and then work on a 3sGTE conversion. I want to get this car going and the faster the better. Also then this gives me plenty of time to build a good motor with the right tranny, bellhousing, driveshaft, rear diff and all that other fun stuff.
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