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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Mon, 26 September 2005 10:59
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Hey just looking for a few tips/answer as I am about to start work on re-building the bottom end of the 1st gen 3S-GTE I am stuck with.
1. When 'torque-ing' up the conrod bolts, i hear that use a torque wrench is *not* the preferred method, and that checking the rod-bolt stretch is better. Anyone got anything to add to that?
2. I have also read that plastiguage is not really that good for measuring bearing clearances (such as the clearance between the installed big-end bearing and the conrod). Is it a better idea to use a micrometer to check the internal diameter of the bearing installed in the rod (but obviously not installed on the crank) and also measure the crankshaft journal itself?
3. Does anyone have any tips for getting accurate measurements from a telescoping micrometer when measuring the internal diameter of a conrod/installed bearing etc? As in, common inaccuracies, bad methods etc?
4. Measuring piston skirts etc - i understand that forged pistons require a certain amount of clearance between the bore and the piston skirt. Is it important to get the clearance right at the skirt, or should i check the clearance near the rings and the crown itself as well?
5. Without fancy balancing instruments, what can I check myself reasonably easily in regards to the condition of the crankshaft (aside from the crankshaft journal wear)? I would assume that *most* crankshafts could either sag, or 'twist' fractionally with age (ie many bazillions of kilometers)?
And lastly this is a bit of an aside - machining cast pistons isn't a good idea is it? (i'm no metallurgist).
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Location:
melb
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Mon, 26 September 2005 11:48
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| RWDboy wrote on Mon, 26 September 2005 20:59 |
Hey just looking for a few tips/answer as I am about to start work on re-building the bottom end of the 1st gen 3S-GTE I am stuck with.
1. When 'torque-ing' up the conrod bolts, i hear that use a torque wrench is *not* the preferred method, and that checking the rod-bolt stretch is better. Anyone got anything to add to that?
2. I have also read that plastiguage is not really that good for measuring bearing clearances (such as the clearance between the installed big-end bearing and the conrod). Is it a better idea to use a micrometer to check the internal diameter of the bearing installed in the rod (but obviously not installed on the crank) and also measure the crankshaft journal itself?
3. Does anyone have any tips for getting accurate measurements from a telescoping micrometer when measuring the internal diameter of a conrod/installed bearing etc? As in, common inaccuracies, bad methods etc?
4. Measuring piston skirts etc - i understand that forged pistons require a certain amount of clearance between the bore and the piston skirt. Is it important to get the clearance right at the skirt, or should i check the clearance near the rings and the crown itself as well?
5. Without fancy balancing instruments, what can I check myself reasonably easily in regards to the condition of the crankshaft (aside from the crankshaft journal wear)? I would assume that *most* crankshafts could either sag, or 'twist' fractionally with age (ie many bazillions of kilometers)?
And lastly this is a bit of an aside - machining cast pistons isn't a good idea is it? (i'm no metallurgist).
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Item 1- You need a Torque wrench. Measuring bolt length is for checking if the bolt has stretched after it has been used.
Item 2- When I get my race engine parts machined I always check with plastiguage. Never trust a machinist.
Item 4- Forged pistons expand differently to cast pistons and need bigger clearances I have 6 thou clearance for my forgies.Measure the piston diameter 90 degrees to the piston pin at the pin height.
Hope this helps.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Mon, 26 September 2005 13:20
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| Quote: |
You need a Torque wrench. Measuring bolt length is for checking if the bolt has stretched after it has been used.
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This is different to what I have heard. I realise that measuring rod bolt stretch after it has been used is common, but what i am actually referring to is that to get the right 'torque' on a rod bolt (when re-assembling) it's better to measure how much it stretches when installed - ie measure it accurately before it's installed, and then measure how much it stretches when tightened to a prescribed amount (say 6 thou of an inch) to ensure that the right amount of clamping force is applied to the rod cap/rod.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Mon, 26 September 2005 13:26
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| Quote: |
When I get my race engine parts machined I always check with plastiguage. Never trust a machinist.
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I don't trust a machinist either - but I am also under the impression that plastiguage isn't adequate for checking bearing clearances...anyone else have anything to say about that one?
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Tue, 27 September 2005 12:58
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I am already intending on checking 'it' (whatever 'it' is)... what I am after is solid advice from people who have built high-performance or race engines and how they go about checking and measuring tolerances when they are about to re-assemble a bottom end. Preferably advice relating specifically to the questions I have regarding accuracy of certain measuring devices and techniques.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Tue, 27 September 2005 13:02
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| BigBadBenny wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 21:47 |
use new bolts and use a torque wrench, forget about measuring them.
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I still think people are missing the point - i am talking about measuring new bolts when they are installed. I think the theory behind using the stretch as opposed to 'torque wrench' when checking how tight the installed *new* rod bolt is that torque is affected by too many variables, such as lubricant, water, dust, machining of the thread etc...whereas with 'stretch' you can more accurately predict the amount of force that is being applied to the rod bolt to stretch the material (and hence the clamping pressure between the rod cap and rod).
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Tue, 27 September 2005 14:01
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| RWDboy wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 23:02 |
| BigBadBenny wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 21:47 |
use new bolts and use a torque wrench, forget about measuring them.
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I still think people are missing the point - i am talking about measuring new bolts when they are installed. I think the theory behind using the stretch as opposed to 'torque wrench' when checking how tight the installed *new* rod bolt is that torque is affected by too many variables, such as lubricant, water, dust, machining of the thread etc...whereas with 'stretch' you can more accurately predict the amount of force that is being applied to the rod bolt to stretch the material (and hence the clamping pressure between the rod cap and rod).
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Umm, I might be missing something here, but how on earth do you propose to measure the 'strech' of the rod bolts once installed?
I mean to me it would appear that they would be enclosed in the thread of the rods and hence be unmeasurable... 
You could use torque to yield bolts, and to my knowledge the installation technique for them generally is to tighten to X torque then a further +x degrees.
Cheers
Wilbo
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Location:
Townsville North Qld
Registered:
June 2003
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 Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Tue, 27 September 2005 23:26
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clean your threads, lubricate them, make sure theres no dust around, and use a high quality torque wrench... as there is no way you can measure the stretch of a main cap bolt. A rod bolt is possible as they use a nut on the end... but how far will the bolts stretch at the required torque?? this is a complex mathematical equation dependant on impurities in the material of the bolt, the heat of the bolts, and how much the head squashes on the con-rod (among other things)... so it is also innacurate. Personally i would just take my time to make sure those threads are perfect (mostly just for the main bearing threads in the block, because all your bolts and nuts will be new, and should have high precision threads). This also applies for your head studs.
Cheers, Owen
(2 months away from being a qualified engineer... about time!!)
EDIT: Dont forget to use fairly new, high quality sockets, as they will also stretch and could cause further innacuracy
[Updated on: Tue, 27 September 2005 23:27]
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Wed, 28 September 2005 00:01
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| RWDboy wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 23:02 |
| BigBadBenny wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 21:47 |
use new bolts and use a torque wrench, forget about measuring them.
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I still think people are missing the point - i am talking about measuring new bolts when they are installed. I think the theory behind using the stretch as opposed to 'torque wrench' when checking how tight the installed *new* rod bolt is that torque is affected by too many variables, such as lubricant, water, dust, machining of the thread etc...whereas with 'stretch' you can more accurately predict the amount of force that is being applied to the rod bolt to stretch the material (and hence the clamping pressure between the rod cap and rod).
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I do know what you're refering to here... it was on the ARP website tech docs but the site is down atm. Apparently it is THE most accurate way of bolting stuff down but i thought you needed VERY precise tools in order to measure it.
Just get some ARP moly lube and use that to torque to specs. Just make sure you tighten/loosen the bolts by hand 3-5 times to make sure the thread is properly coated.
Eddie.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Wed, 28 September 2005 05:32
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| Big T wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 10:01 |
I do know what you're refering to here... it was on the ARP website tech docs but the site is down atm. Apparently it is THE most accurate way of bolting stuff down but i thought you needed VERY precise tools in order to measure it.
Just get some ARP moly lube and use that to torque to specs. Just make sure you tighten/loosen the bolts by hand 3-5 times to make sure the thread is properly coated.
Eddie.
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exactly its not like your building a formula 1 engine thats going to spin to 18k
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Wed, 28 September 2005 06:12
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To properly assemble an engine you will need to test assemble and dissasemble it several times.
When putting the rod bolts in when they are not on the crank you can measure the amount of stretch at a given torque reading on your wrench. The manufacturer of the bolt should be able to give you a stretch rating for it.
Once you are doing your final assembly you can simply read the torque reading from the wrench and be fairly sure that it will match that of the strech reading.
I would suggest that if you are serious about this rebuild pick up a book on the subject. You may find it hard to find one that specialises in the 3SGTE, but ones on the small block Chev (350) are usually pretty easy to find and cheap. The principals are all pretty much the same, but the tolerances will be different - Toyota would have reccomendations but if you are using aftermarket parts you will need to check their clearance specs too.
An added bonus of reading such a book is that you will gain a good understanding of the processes that are available to you from the machine shop.
That way when you walk in there you can ask for exactly what you want and are much more likely not to be ripped off or get something that is not to your required specifications.
Regards,
Terry.
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Wed, 28 September 2005 06:53
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To measure stretch we use a stretch gauge. The rod bolts should have a dimple in either end. Picture an outside micrometer with a dial indicator. Or the oposite of a ball gauge. A torque wrench is used as a guide othersie u ill not know when to start measuring the stretch. The rod bolt manufacturer should supply you with a info sheet on doing this and also what they recomend the stretch to be.
To precisly meaure the oil clearance of your bearings you will need an outside micrometer and a ball gauge. The ACL bearing book or your engine manual should provide the correct oil clearance figure.
To measure oil clearance
1: Install bearings and caps and torque down.(always use lube on bolts, not only to get more accurate figures but to lube the bolt and help it from galling)
2: measure crank journals with a mic.
3: Put the ball gauge between the mic when it is set on the journal size. Then zero the dial on the ball gauge dial indicator.
4: Use the ball gauge inside the torqued bearing cap and bearings.
You should get a positive reading on the dial. If its negative u have lots of work to do.
Telescopic gauges are only as good as there user. the same with any precise measureing tool. They do take a little more skill and experience to use accurately tho.
these instruments are not your everyday worshop tool tho.
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Wed, 28 September 2005 14:53
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1. pretty good site. look around http://chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/49258/
2. Plastigage is the best thing since sliced bread except for microwave ovens & 4AGs. it does not tell if it is out-of round. i've only heard that the rod side play will skew it some, and that some will use a temporary shim to keep it from twisting when tightened. not my experience.
3. practice!! try Starrett, their site might have something. you can do it with a piece of coat hanger, with radiused & very smooth ends, and your mic/vernier caliper if you have to.
4. yes, the clearance is on the skirt, and except for the pin & ring land dimensions, most else would be usless.
5. indexing/degreeing the crank is nice, just to know its OK, but my stuff wasn't that precision and it only really matters in respect to cam & ignition timing being off compared to the one used to set them. TDC on 1 & 4 at zero, and 2 & 3 at 180.
You CANNOT do this with a factory pully, on any engine in the world!! its gotta be bigger to be accurate.
most cranks get bent/warped. use the #1 & #5 mains(with bearings& oil) as a V-block and use #3 main to check its runout. zero is nice. the Toyota FX16 book RM069U says .0024in max. a dial indicator isn't necessary, and just a stiff wire bolted to the pan rail & feeler gage can make a good indicator & measurment.
i just used the cap, #3, with 2 bearings & none in the block(except #1 & #5) tightened down slowley, bit by bit, to bend it straight. take it easy, a little bit more each time. steel springs back more then cast, i imagine. i've never done it on cast iron.
6. machining what??? valve relief, pin size, ring land width or depth, shortened skirt, extra oil ring/scraper? it's just a piece of metal and it isn't heat treated, though it may have a coating.
[Updated on: Wed, 28 September 2005 15:07]
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Wed, 28 September 2005 21:01
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[quote title=
Telescopic gauges are only as good as there user. the same with any precise measureing tool. They do take a little more skill and experience to use accurately tho.
these instruments are not your everyday worshop tool tho.[/quote]
my telescopic gauges sensationally accurate  .
there you go RWDboy,jeff just filled you in and how it is done properly.were did you learn so much jeff,you should be working in an engine building shop!hahahahahaah
mick
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Wed, 28 September 2005 22:48
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yer maybe i should mick!!
Oh and when your measuring your piston clearance usually u measure at the centre height of the piston pin. With forgies u measure half an inch from the bottom of the skirt.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Wed, 28 September 2005 23:51
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8.30 and not at work jeff?day off?
mick
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Thu, 29 September 2005 01:38
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got the flu....
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Thu, 29 September 2005 15:39
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Ahh some awesome responses - now for the hard part - replying to 'em 
| o_man_ra23 |
A rod bolt is possible as they use a nut on the end... but how far will the bolts stretch at the required torque?? this is a complex mathematical equation dependant on impurities in the material of the bolt, the heat of the bolts, and how much the head squashes on the con-rod (among other things)... so it is also innacurate. Personally i would just take my time to make sure those threads are perfect (mostly just for the main bearing threads in the block, because all your bolts and nuts will be new, and should have high precision threads).
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Yeah I think you are partly right, but I imagine that most rod bolt manufacturers (such as ARP) give info on how much stretch is required for the correct torque is because it's possible to 'calculate' how strong the material is, I haven't checked, but i'm sure instructions relating to lube, heat etc are also supplied with most new bolts.
| Big T |
do know what you're refering to here... it was on the ARP website tech docs but the site is down atm. Apparently it is THE most accurate way of bolting stuff down but i thought you needed VERY precise tools in order to measure it.
Just get some ARP moly lube and use that to torque to specs. Just make sure you tighten/loosen the bolts by hand 3-5 times to make sure the thread is properly coated.
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Yeah I imagine that the average micrometer is probably not going to be accurate enough, so I may have to look into finding a better tool for the job.
| 4agte |
exactly its not like your building a formula 1 engine thats going to spin to 18k
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Actually I'm building a few 3S engines at the moment - one of which is going to go into a very serious track car  So I'm trying to do the best I can and learn as much as possible in the process. Plus I know how much track engines (and even road engines when I'm driving) get thrashed so I'm trying to build them as *strong* and *reliable* as possible. I've rebuilt an engine or two before, and I've helped my dad build a couple of rally car motors, and it's seriously tough to get them right and build it as good or better than factory spec.
| starfire |
I would suggest that if you are serious about this rebuild pick up a book on the subject. You may find it hard to find one that specialises in the 3SGTE, but ones on the small block Chev (350) are usually pretty easy to find and cheap. The principals are all pretty much the same, but the tolerances will be different - Toyota would have reccomendations but if you are using aftermarket parts you will need to check their clearance specs too.
An added bonus of reading such a book is that you will gain a good understanding of the processes that are available to you from the machine shop.
That way when you walk in there you can ask for exactly what you want and are much more likely not to be ripped off or get something that is not to your required specifications.
Regards,
Terry.
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Yeah, books, tech articles, etc I'm currently reading and trying to absorb as much as possible, but also I realise that until I actually *do* some of this stuff it's all a waste of time 
| jeffro RA28 |
To measure stretch we use a stretch gauge. The rod bolts should have a dimple in either end. Picture an outside micrometer with a dial indicator. Or the oposite of a ball gauge. A torque wrench is used as a guide othersie u ill not know when to start measuring the stretch. The rod bolt manufacturer should supply you with a info sheet on doing this and also what they recomend the stretch to be.
To precisly meaure the oil clearance of your bearings you will need an outside micrometer and a ball gauge. The ACL bearing book or your engine manual should provide the correct oil clearance figure.
To measure oil clearance
1: Install bearings and caps and torque down.(always use lube on bolts, not only to get more accurate figures but to lube the bolt and help it from galling)
2: measure crank journals with a mic.
3: Put the ball gauge between the mic when it is set on the journal size. Then zero the dial on the ball gauge dial indicator.
4: Use the ball gauge inside the torqued bearing cap and bearings.
You should get a positive reading on the dial. If its negative u have lots of work to do.
Telescopic gauges are only as good as there user. the same with any precise measureing tool. They do take a little more skill and experience to use accurately tho.
these instruments are not your everyday worshop tool tho.
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So a stretch gauge is very similar to a dial guage, only a) more accurate, and b) has some way of settling in the dimple at the end of the rod bolt.
| allencr |
1. pretty good site. look around http://chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/49258/
2. Plastigage is the best thing since sliced bread except for microwave ovens & 4AGs. it does not tell if it is out-of round. i've only heard that the rod side play will skew it some, and that some will use a temporary shim to keep it from twisting when tightened. not my experience.
3. practice!! try Starrett, their site might have something. you can do it with a piece of coat hanger, with radiused & very smooth ends, and your mic/vernier caliper if you have to.
4. yes, the clearance is on the skirt, and except for the pin & ring land dimensions, most else would be usless.
5. indexing/degreeing the crank is nice, just to know its OK, but my stuff wasn't that precision and it only really matters in respect to cam & ignition timing being off compared to the one used to set them. TDC on 1 & 4 at zero, and 2 & 3 at 180.
You CANNOT do this with a factory pully, on any engine in the world!! its gotta be bigger to be accurate.
most cranks get bent/warped. use the #1 & #5 mains(with bearings& oil) as a V-block and use #3 main to check its runout. zero is nice. the Toyota FX16 book RM069U says .0024in max. a dial indicator isn't necessary, and just a stiff wire bolted to the pan rail & feeler gage can make a good indicator & measurment.
i just used the cap, #3, with 2 bearings & none in the block(except #1 & #5) tightened down slowley, bit by bit, to bend it straight. take it easy, a little bit more each time. steel springs back more then cast, i imagine. i've never done it on cast iron.
6. machining what??? valve relief, pin size, ring land width or depth, shortened skirt, extra oil ring/scraper? it's just a piece of metal and it isn't heat treated, though it may have a coating.
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part 1 thru 4 are all understood...but part 5 I'm assuming that in the case of a straight 4 (ie the 3S motor that i'm working on) you would put the caps on 1 & 4 and check the run-off on 2 & 3. I would also assume that the block is usually alot straighter than the crank, but is there any way of checking the block to make sure that you aren't bending the crank for nothing? Maybe using a very precise straight edge? Lastly - when you say use 2 bearings on #3 (in your V engine example) you mean 2 bearings in the #3 cap, and no bearing in the block?
And in regards to the piston machining I mean valve reliefs or circumference of the piston crown. I always thought that cast *anything* is not very crack resiliant when machined as the surface is where the material is stronger?
| jeffro RA28 |
Oh and when your measuring your piston clearance usually u measure at the centre height of the piston pin. With forgies u measure half an inch from the bottom of the skirt.
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Cheers for that.
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Fri, 30 September 2005 02:06
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Please note about the piston clearance that if u buy new pistons it should include a sheet on where to measure from. So what i said above may not be correct in all cases but i havent ever seen different.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Fri, 30 September 2005 12:54
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Yeah I bought some *used* forgies off of StuC that will go into one of the motors - will have to look into it a bit more. Also have a few used pistons that will go into another motor - I guess those will be measured at piston pin height (?) ...
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Sat, 01 October 2005 03:57
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i don't know what a 3S is - a 4 main straight 6 or a V6? there are no 4 main 4's. either way, its just using the block as a very steady & solid & precise set of V-blocks for holding and rotating the crank to check its runout. then it is also used as a very solid piece to hold the crank if it has to be bent back into shape - arrow straight. v-block are just 2 points to rotate on and
for that process, the condition of the block is irrelevant, unless it's in 2 pieces & won't hold still!
infact it'll be better then any machine shop because the old bearing you use are sure to be much smoother, softer and wider then the scuffed up v-blocks at the machine shop. if the crank is going to be ground, then their stuff is ok, but having to polish up scuff marks they've possibly made on your nice mains, is really unnecessary.
yes, 2 bearings in the cap, nothing on the block, else how can it be pushed straight, since it'll have to be bent way past straight so it will spring back straight.
sure they can be cut.
i don't believe that "stronger surface" shit!
the reliefs are probably fine cause these non-interference things have loads of space. they're usually quite thick, and how do you think the factory does it. if you say you want to keep it a non-interference with whatever cam, then I can't waste time with this stuff!
********
also, measure the piston diameter, top & bottom of skirt at its widest point, which'll be 90 from the pin. i've never heard of only at the pin, and you've gotta know that it's parallel!
[Updated on: Sat, 01 October 2005 04:19]
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Sat, 01 October 2005 04:49
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allencr -> yeah sorry I didn't quite follow what you meant first time around but but now i'm following no problems.
And thankfully for you, I'm not worried about valve relief with regards to camshaft specs
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Sun, 02 October 2005 12:32
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I now know that the 3S is a straight 4 cylinder.
RWDboy, why do you think that it has 4 main bearings??
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Mon, 03 October 2005 06:10
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Oh it's got 5 main bearings alright! I just wasn't concentrating when I made that reply, it was 1:00am and I'd just got home from work. Well, that's my excuse anyway
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rebuilding Bottom End - need some advice!
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Mon, 03 October 2005 07:09
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speaking of mains!think i might have to get jeff to knock up a few girdle plates for me for my 4ag's and one for his 18r!what do you reckon jeff,ill pay for yours and you do mine,saves me doing it.
mick
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