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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Sun, 27 April 2003 09:04
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Howdy,
prior to my ra28 returning to the road with the 18Rgeu conversion i decided to buy and fit a whole new set of aftermarket front end urethane bushings and a 24.5mm whiteline front swaybar to replace the stock item, as i live in Adelaide and hills driving is a highlight of my life  . About 1 year ago i got rid of the shagged suspension for the engine swap, and treated the car to new 1.5" low KingSprings and KYB red shocks all round, and my mates dad said id never appreciate the new gear as much until i fitted swaybars..
What i am wondering is how the car will handle with just a big 24.5mm bar on the front and no rear swaybar?? Since i got the better springs and shocks its felt like it could do with swaybars to firm the ride up even moreso.. will the Handling have improved after replacing a stock front bar and no rear bar?
What aspects of the handling will the front bar alter??
what do all you RA2* celica owners think is a good setup for an ra28?
if a rear bar is the go.. What size would suit the 24.5mm front item well?
What do you guys have on your cars?
Cheers heaps for any advice or help on the topic, all opinions are welcome ..
Thanks
Guy
_____________________
BlackRA28
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Sun, 27 April 2003 09:34
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Given that you've lowered the front suspension you'd probably find cornering alot sharper with a front sway bar due to less bottoming out on the suspension rubbers, however you will still get *alot* of understeer.
Front sway bars tend to even out the pressure difference that body roll gives...meaning that your front inside tyre get's a bit more grip, and the outside tyre does a little less of the work. The outside tyre already has to travel extra distance over the inside tyre, and making it do even more work than required tends to create an understeer effect, or simply make it slip. The inside tyre doesn't work too well when there is no pressure on it which is what a sway bar helps with.
Get a rear sway bar if you find that you are either getting too much inside rear-wheel spin (tends to happen more with a ordinary slipping differential) when cornering hard/powering on out of a corner - or if you are getting alot of understeer from the rear end pushing the front end (this may still happen with high slip angles - ie going sideways - you just might not notice that your tyres are sliding along the road in an understeer fashion)...given that you have a fairly chunky front sway bar, I think you'd probably be best trying something mild/soft on the rear, although I'm not really the one to hand out figures.
Lots of people tend to go over-firm with suspension, and over-low as well, just because a ride feels taut doesn't mean that it's going fast, the best thing is to get good feel when cornering hard, and good feedback through the seat of your pants, not bone jarring feel, and not to feel like your car seems to hit a "limit" of it's cornering ability very early in the corner.
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Sun, 27 April 2003 12:59
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Thanks for the explanation FWDboy.. you've shed a lot of light on the situation for me, i'll try it out with the front bar and bushings until they are worn in nicely and see how she handles... if it comes to the point where its getting understeer and then mega wheelspin-drift i mite invest in a mild rear bar of some sort... or just live with it for a while and take it to the salt lakes to get the hang of the thing..
A mate has an 18 mm k-mac item i think on the rear of his capella and that thing handles amazing at 130mph.. 
Are there many hassles with adding an aftermarket rear sway bar to an ra28? is it just a matter of welding on mounts to the axle housings? has anyone got photos of there rear end setups? or better still where each mount is exactly?
Cheers
Guy
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Mon, 28 April 2003 01:12
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I have a rear swaybar on my 23 but i dont have any pictures at the moment send me your email.
The swaybar dosnt need any welding at all it has these clips that hook on the track rods (think thats what its called) with urathane bushes.
It does make the back sit flatter but as for handelling i dont know because i dont have the horsepower to play with at the moment.
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Mon, 28 April 2003 03:13
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yeh cheers Jason, thanks for the input.
my email is: fat_tonez01@hotmail.com
What size diameter is the bar on the rear of your 23?
i mite investigate these a little further..
_____________
BlackRA28
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Tue, 29 April 2003 09:19
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just grab 1 from a ra40 late coupe or liftback they are 12 to 14 mm in thickness and bolt up grab the brakets as well ,for what you are doing 18mm is 2 thick ,im using 31 mm on the race car and have 14mm on the back
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Wed, 11 June 2003 14:34
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would the RA40 items fit the same for front the front end as well ?? i guess not, but im not the expert 
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 03:58
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My current RA28 suspension setup is :
1 inch lowered all round on king springs
Pedders sports rider shocks all round.
Witeline adjustable swaybar on the front.
Still shit loads of body roll.. I am thinking about fitting those body roll adjuster things whiteline sell that bring the control arms back to their factory angle before lowing it. They sit under the shock.
Interested in this RA40 rear sway bar idea!
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 04:27
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Same here!!! i want one.
Where exactly do they mount from?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 04:43
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After all that you still have buckets of body roll ? Did you notice any difference after installing the new suspension or is it purely cosmetic ?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 04:45
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Would also be intrested in finding out if the Corona struts / brake upgrade will effect the type of tyres that will fit..
What tyres / mags are people running who have done this conversion ???
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 05:13
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Yeah dunno why but my car is really bad with body roll..
Check this pic :
http://members.optusnet.com.au/helenfitz/wakefield /pages/WP%20FRI_0146.htm
I think most of its in the rear...
The upgrade i mentioned above helped a lot, much better but still not great.. Looks like most of the roll is in the rear, so probably need a rear swaybar.
I have the corona strut upgrade, 4 spot calipers etc... 15 inch wheels and fits fine, I think 14s would clear too.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 05:17
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i see what you mean tho, you could be travelling at a slightly higher speed, so its hard to pass judgement...
are u running the 18r ? 1G or 1j ?
im guessing anything larger than 15's wont fit, are your tyres low profile or standard issue types..
and if you dont mind me asking how much did your suspension upgrade total, did you do it yourself ?
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 05:22
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Engine is 3T-GTE (currently making 145 kw @ wheels).
Tyres are 195x50x15 at the front, and 205x55x15 at the rear. But will be putting 50s on the rear when they are due for a change.
I did all the suspension/brakes myself..
Springs were around $220 from memory for all 4.
Shocks were hmm this is testing my memory haha.. think around $300 - $400.
Front adjustable swaybar around $200.
Brake upgrade for struts, calipers, discs, rebuild kit, larger master cylinder was somewhere up around $500 - $600.
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 05:29
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mmm... 145kw's.... i bet that provides a few hours of fun...
and you dont think that the body roll could be due to engine position ? i dont the the 3tgte is that much heavier if at all compared to the 1ggte... maybe stiffer suspension would help..
thanks very much for those figuers... very usefull... have you by any chance replaced your bushes ? not that it would particularly make a huge difference
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 05:39
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The 3T is actually lighter than the original 18RC from what I can tell..
The front sits a lot higher anyway since changing to the 3T.
I moved battery to the boot also, maybe helps a little with weight distribution.
I think the 3T sits a bit high in the engine bay though, could come down a lot closer to the crossmember, and also back towards the firewall a bit.. This could help.. But soon swapping to a 3S so will redo all the mounts and positioning then...
Yeah still old worn bushes! These really should be replaced too. I might see what whiteline has avaliable.. Anyone changed these before? Big job?
Thanks
Joel
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 06:39
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if you are a financial member dude - have a look at the sponsor's page.. you would be surprised at the deals we can get!
Noltec doa range of bushes for the RA28...
Myself i have a 18mm i think rear swaybar and the stock front bar cos im too lazy to swap in my 25mm front bar. They are the older whiteline non adjustable ones. As it is atm it handle pretty well, but is prone to popping out at the rear if you let it.... violently at times too!
I might investigate this RA40 rear swaybar idea though!
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 11:11
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what spring rates on the frt and rear also you could put more bar on the frt i have a clip on that will fix the frt you could change the rebound on the back shocks if they are adjustable i run 275 on front and 180 on rears with 31 and 14 on back also bilstein shocks all round ,and at the island i still lift the frt 200 mm off the ground in corners and i am running 5 degrees off neg camber
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Thu, 12 June 2003 14:38
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We recently changed all the front end bushings on my RA28 with new Noltec items, they costed in total ~$75 and were for lower control arms, tie rod ends, sway bar mounts and D-bushes. One was available for the idler arm aswell i believe but mine is less than 6 months old so i didnt bother.
It wasnt a heaps hard job, just involves unbolting everything and putting the new bushes in place of old. I also installed a new 24mm bar up front at the time which complicated the process a little more but not much.
The only problem that came up was putting the 8 new bushes on the 2 sway bar mount bolts. There are 4 bushes on each bolt, two for where the bolt contacts the chassis, and two for where the sway bar links up with the bolt closer to the top. The bushes that came off mine were sandwiched quite thin, and the noltec-type replacements were quite a lot fatter in height.. So when we went to put them on we weren't even able to fit all 4 bushes onto the bolt without the bar!! let alone have space to put the sway bar on and a bolt onto the end..
My car is still off the road as such and other things have been occupying time i have down at the workshop, so this is the onyl part i have yet to rectify as far as the new front end bushings goes.. everything else went on like a charm easy, took 2 of us half an hour, maybe more.. But we ended up putting in new ball-joints at the same time as they looked old and worn..
I may have to cut the new swaybar bushings down to size, at least shave a few mm's off each.. Cos i couldnt use a longer bolt we thought about it and it would probably have an adverse affect on its function, am i right??? Will slimming the fat noltec bushes down have a negative result?? Are there any other possible ways i can fit these thicker bushes onto the short standard sway bar mounting bolt??? They are just too damn fat and tuff..
But yeh, after these are on im hoping the steering and front end will be a lot firmer.. and handling to be improved and sharper with the new 24mm bar and ball-joints as well..
Still need rear bar tho!!!!!!!!!!
I want an ra40 item too!
Oh and i have 1 1/2" low King springs,
KYB struts, all round in my celica. the were an immense improvement from stock.... Had a lot of fun compared to bouncy springs, but still needs the sway bars i reckon, still gets a little bit of body roll, even tho the ride is Ultra-FIRM.
This setup cost me around $700 mark. Big improvement, and good foundation i think for upgraded handling package.
2nd-hand Whiteline/Selby front bar 24.5 mm was $75 ,
Whole set of Noltec front end bushes $75 also...
Didnt inquire about rear but will when i put this ra40 bar on !!
Peace
__________________
BlackRA28
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Fri, 13 June 2003 03:55
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You will probably find that lowering your car been the biggest influence on the body roll.
The problem is that by lowering the car you have changed the effective geometry of the suspension. This can be calculated fairly easily, but generally if you lower a strut type front end, handling goes bad.
The roll cantre adjusters that Joel mentioned are the thing to fix that, however I would advise that you put a fair bit of thought and planning into it before installing them. Too little and you won't see any difference, too much and the car hill hop around the corner.
There are a few good books on suspension design available. Worth reading if you want to understand how it all works and why most suspension mods make your car handle worse.
I should put together a guide on locating and moving your roll cantre. Maybe when I finally get around to fixing the balls up that has been done to my car.........
Joel, if you are worried about body roll at the back, come and talk to me before you do your diff conversion. You can't do anything with the standard celica live diff, but if you want to do a little fabrication, you can make the roll centre on a live axle adjustable.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Fri, 13 June 2003 04:03
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So correct me if im wrong in saying that its either the lowered suspension, or the sway bar methods.....
or are u impling that they have to go hand in hand... if its not too much to ask, what do you see as being the idea method for lowered but stiff suspension set ups... or what do you have on you ra28..??
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Fri, 13 June 2003 04:13
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Thanks mate i'll take you up on that offer to discuss fabricating roll center adjuster for the new rear end going in.
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Fri, 13 June 2003 04:16
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I think we could all use some ideas to master the handling of ra28's... even if we have to crack out the math books, im willing to learn, thats why we chose the 1G, because if we dont master this, we may as well had a 1J...
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Fri, 13 June 2003 04:19
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Sway bars are put there to make up for bad suspension design. If your suspension geometry is good, they theoretically you shouldn't need a sway bar.
Early Celica's are pretty ordinary at the best of times for body roll, If I get a chance this weekend, I will make some measurements and draw some pics that will explain what I am saying.
Best method is to have the geometry right and have soft suspension, but that wouldn't be rice though would it. 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Fri, 13 June 2003 04:22
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Rice is but a logo, its not as though those kids are going to take the time to look past the big shiny mags...
Just one more thing, your explantion will relate to the stock RA28 struts and suspension out fit? or have you taken the route of the XT130s ??
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Fri, 13 June 2003 05:33
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I bought my car with the suspension as is. It has MA61 struts with chamber adjusters on the lower control arms (etcentric bushes) In my opinion it is a really bad setup and I wouldn't advise it to anyone. Having said that I am not about to put the car on a race track so I can live with the body roll and understeer. Well for now anyway. I have plans for it but I need to sort out a few other bits on the car first.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Mon, 16 June 2003 00:24
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Well I actually got off my ass this weekend and measured up the front end of the celica and plotted the roll centre location for a couple of cases.
It was prettymuch what I expected. Although the static chamber actually seems quite good at -0.3 and -0.8 degrees each side. It seems that the eccentric bushes in the lower control arm has fixed the problem with the MA61 struts.
As I expected the roll centre sits quite well at the static height and zero roll. It drops a little with 25mm of bump (ie under brakes) but not excessively.
It all goes pear shaped when rolling though. The roll centre moving from 40cm above ground level at 25mm bump and 5deg roll. (entry into a corner under brakes) to 9cm below ground level at static height and 5deg of roll. (neutral turn). This explains the aweful feeling I get on corner exit.
These roll angles may seem a little large, but the static roll centre was pretty low meaning that turning would really load up the suspension, so I went a little on the conservative side.
Using the roll centre adjusters mentioned earlier should make the lowered front end a little less sensitive but I havn't yet looked at what the change would be.
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Mon, 16 June 2003 23:33
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i went from totally standard suspension to 30mm lowered king springs, monroe gas gt shocks, every eurothane bush i could find, and whiteline swaybars fornt & rear in one weekend.
from what i could tell the bodyroll almost disappeared, but i think the major contributer was the rear sway bay as we did front end on a saturday, the rear on a sunday and i had a drive in between
with only the front done, there was still a fair amount of body roll, so this would suggest that the rear end was the major culprit.
ev
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Mon, 16 June 2003 23:37
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also the rear swaybar has 2 u bolts that hook around the axels coming from the diff, and the other ends of the swaybar are connected via brackets bolted to the body mounts of the control arms.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Tue, 17 June 2003 00:19
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Would you recommend using the adjustable rear sway bar or the fixed one? I have an adjustable front, but not sure what to do on the rear.
Also.. Is an adjustable panhard rod worth while? For a car with lowered suspension.
Thanks
JOel
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Tue, 17 June 2003 03:46
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An adjustable panhard rod just lets you center the diff. If you lower the car, the standard rod will push the diff sideways slightly. Even better, use a watts link. Normally you can lower the car without causing too much of a problem. My guess is that you could look at the back of your car and you won't even notice. Adjustable panhard rods are really useful when you want to raise the height of a 4x4 significantly.
Joel, when I mentioned that you can make the aft roll center adjustable, I was exagerating a little, You can move it but it isn't really adjustable. By fabricating a linkage that is something like a cross between a Watts link and a pan heard rod, you can locate the roll centre where ever you want it. The only problem is that it is built into the linkage. You could make it adjustable but it would be difficult.
Adjustable sway bars are great for tuning your suspension. But the more adjustment you have, the more complicated tuning gets. My advice is to stick with a fixed one at the rear and use an adjustable one up front to balance the car. If you cant get it to handle well with them, then maybe the problem lies elsewhere.
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Tue, 17 June 2003 03:46
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| TurboRA28 wrote on Tue, 17 June 2003 10:19 |
Would you recommend using the adjustable rear sway bar or the fixed one? I have an adjustable front, but not sure what to do on the rear.
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depends on what you use your car for. i think if you race it, an adjustebale one would be good, mine is not adjustable (not enough finaces at the time  ), and one of the guys at an autocross i went in said 'you might want to unhook the rear one at this track, too stiff suspension is not that good'. if you just drive it on the street, probably not needed, but if you can afford go, do it!
| TurboRA28 wrote on Tue, 17 June 2003 10:19 |
Also.. Is an adjustable panhard rod worth while? For a car with lowered suspension.
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not sure. i was told when i was buying all the suspension stuff that it would be good, as when you lower it, the origional pan hard rod squews the rear axel a little. personally i haven't noticed any difference, but then again i hav only done dirt events so far, perhaps it will be more noticable on bitumen.
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: RA28 <-- swaybar setups
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Tue, 17 June 2003 03:53
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goldRA28: i agree about just getting fixed swaybar, at this stage i'm not experienced enough driver to notice the differences small suspension changes make, so a fixed one cuts out a lot of the setup adjustments that need to be done.
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