| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
April 2003
|
|
4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 03:37
|
 |
Hey
This might have been done before, and please don't make this a toyota vs nissan story, and all that type of stuff
I know its hard to compare a 4agte because its a custom job, with chosen parts etc, but I'm not interested in power from both engines, i know they both make nice nice power, i'm more interested in cost, and instalation efforts to put into a Sprinter and reliability
with the 4agte it would be for me
Engine management
maybe like a ct26 turbo
large cc injectors,
4agze block, big port head around 8:0 comp
custom exhaust manifold, 3inch pipe
FMIC, CAI etc etc
but this all basically drops in, meaning no custom fabbing other than the exhaust manifold and a few other things
I don't know the cost of this engine, but would likely be around the 3-4k mark plus management, which would be around the same as a sr20det with gerabox etc.
with the Sr20det
basically would have the basic mods,
factory ecu, T28 BB, FMIC, 14psi, 3inch full exhaust etc etc
I know this setup is very reliable, and will push out 170rwkw
But would need
Custom gearbox mount, and engine mounts, maybe som bashing of the gearbox well to fit the large gearbox.
id be budgeting in the mist of 5-7k for this install and the 4agte install, but i am scared about a 4agte with reliability, i want to take the car out every weekend, for some fun, and not have to worry about stuff braking, but both would have around the same mucking around, with custom stuff, with exhaust manifolds for the 4a and custom mounts and more mucking around for the sr20det, and tuning and all that kinda stuff, but both would be realllly fun to do, and get working in the end,
[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2003 03:41]
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 03:49
|
|
If you want a fast car start with the fastest(factory) engine you can afford.
In doing so you'll also have to stop and think about the car your planning to do these mods to, There no point putting 300kws in a car that was designed for shopping duties.
|
|
|
Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 03:53
|
|
i would gor for sr20t
its already been engineered for a turbo from factory
no need to make manifolds
u will get more hp from it
but it will cost abit more
best thing to do is save yr money for the extra hp the sr20t has
then like charlie said spend extra money gettin the rest of car reliable with the new hp like new diff
tailshaft brakes
if u dont rush the job
save 2000 more dollars it will be heaps better job
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
April 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 04:01
|
|
yer here i'm just talking about engine, I've already got or about to, get the rest sorted out,
getting a R31 rear end, with 4.1 LSD, with heavy duty bearings and stuff like that,
using the disc brake rear end, and have some large front rotors, and 4 pot calipers on order at the moment for the front..
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 06:07
|
|
another option that sits right in the middle that you are forgetting......
CA18DET.
Much easier fit than the SR20DET (from a guy, not me, who has done the ca18det for this reason), still factory turbo, and still capable of the big numbers.
That said.... i would prefer the 4agte.
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 07:26
|
|
|
Yeah, I'm with Witzl, the CA18 would be the go. Youngy has looked into these swaps a bit, and reckons the SR is a bit too tall so you have to mod the sump etc. (more cost). The 4A turbo can get expensive when you start looking at what box you're going to use. A T50 won't hold it, so then a supra box= custom bell housing, g/box crossmember, tunnel bashing= big dollars also. The CA already has suitable g/box, is RWD, and more compact than an SR and waaay cheaper to buy as well. They are getting a little old now though, but the 4A is no spring chicken anymore either.
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 08:02
|
|
|
but when brand new sets of 4A-GZE forged and coated pistons are only $400, who cares??
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
April 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 08:50
|
|
mmmm, i did actaully forget about the ca18det, i know they are fantastic engines getting a bit old i know, a friend has one in his S13, which goes quite well...
and when you look at prices for a ca18det at like 1500, and the like, its a lot better option, but needs a larger turbo... but have actaully found the ca18det to be a tad unreliable at some points, but also theres that guy in brisbane who is selling his ca18det sprinter, so its been done a few times at least...
also i understand the drama's with the 4agte with the T50 box, which was made to handle like 90kw at most, pushing like 160kw hard driving, it won't last long under my left hand...
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 10:11
|
|
|
13B turbo? smaller than the lot and can make obscene power...
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 10:18
|
|
the sr20det would be cheper, but the majority of them complete cuts are FWD! And the RWD cost an arm and a leg. The ca18det is the go for the rwd conversion...they're in silvias, 180sx and a few other imports.
The 4agte would be good but it will cost a lot more than 3-4k. Decent turbo and cooler would be at least 2k...then exhausts etc...
|
|
|
Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 11:04
|
|
i dont think your budgeting enough for either conversion even if you do alot of the work yourself.
i personally would go for a 4agte, that way you can start off with a big turbo and not have to fork out more for it later when you become bored of the stock sr20det.
those who were at the last dyno day will remember adam's gte sprinter pulling 206RWKW's with a stock gze block and head with turbo. thats a shit load of power from a 1.6L with bolt on acessories. obviously a supra box is a must.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 11:11
|
|
if I had to guess, most sr20-det cuts would be rwd.... like all the s14/s15 180sx/200sx/silvias out there.
you just have to ask yourself how much HP you're after, and for how much work/money.
sr20 is newer, has awsome aftermarket support, and puts down 160rwkw easily (with a boost controller and (good) intercooler).
but, well, it's a big 4-cyl.. and might have trouble fitting in a sprinter (although the 1jz has been fitted in there before, so anything's possible).
I'd probably be tempted by the sr20, but I have a horsepower fixation. which can lead to expensive thing happening 
|
|
|
Location:
melb
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 12:28
|
|
I reckon at the end of the day when u budget it out the 4agte is going to be heaps more work, cost more and be ultimatly less powerful and torquey than the sr20.
all up either is going to fairly exy.
why not go the 4agze and have a bit of fun with that - at least u can keep the t50 for a while - then upgrade it to turbo when u bored.
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 12:34
|
|
| Quote: |
but when brand new sets of 4A-GZE forged and coated pistons are only $400, who cares??
|
Where from? I want some! Are the early GZE (8:1 comp) and late GZE (8.9:1 comp) pistons interchangeable? Basically I want to know if the rods are the same, just the pistons make the difference in compression.
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 12:37
|
|
Time for my 2c ;p
I am for the 4agte army ;p I wasnt always though... I had originaly thought of doing a 3sgte conversion, which is a little more tedious than the sr20det but very similair too... I gues it basically boils down to how mcuh money you want/can spend and how much power you want!
4agze $550-$900, One great thing about the 4agze blocks is the early bigport versions had 8.0:1 comp w/ semi-forged ceramic coated pistons. The later small port version has 8.9:1 comp w/ forged ceramic coated pistons...
You will then need a fmic (same with a sr20det) which would probably cost anywhere from $500-$900 new.
A W55 Celca box ~$200-$400 tops, this would be ideal behind a 4agte, a W58 would be good too but probably not worth the extra weight/cost $700. A mob in nz are making ribbed bellhousings to mate a 4a to a W series box, easy but $500ish.
No need for engine mounts, gearbox mounts etc...
To being with you could probably get away with the 4agze ecu + injectors... good for 13psi apparently. Although you will have to fork out a bit for ecu+loom $900ish from a jap parts dealer. Really a waste compared to the quote I got today ;p
Microtech LTX8 $1050 (Another $200 for DFI Coils)
Wiring $450
Tuning $200
Now all you will need is a good 3" mandrel exhaust $800-$1100 and a turbo $400+. I would go for somthing like a ST185 CT26 which will push 15psi highflowed ;p
So all up your looking at $4000-$6000 all up depending how how far you want to go. As for reliability i havent heard of any problems with a well setup 4agte... And for the cost of a new engine compared for a sr20det you cant go wrong.
Just my 2c, and a bit.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 13:37
|
|
microtech is a piece of piss to install yourself, as long as you have a basic understanding of the engine and electrics, or a friend who does.
an afternoon's work and it'll be hooked up
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 13:59
|
|
| Quote: |
somthing like a ST185 CT26 which will push 15psi highflowed ;p
|
| Quote: |
maybe like a ct26 turbo
|
Please dont go for a CT26 until you have researched some of the other OEM turbos available (Garretts fitted to Nissans in particular), as the CT26 is not all its made out to be on the little 1.6L, plus its a pain in the ass to fit due to its physical size, there's a lot of wasted casting in the old CT26 for its limited flow/response.
If you could have driven my 4AGTE before and after the CT26, i'm sure I could convince you its not the best idea..... 
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 14:01
|
|
Yeah so I see ;p Im just going through the wiring diagram now and its no harder than the 4age ecu ;p Ill be saving those $450 for somthing that goes psshh 
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 14:06
|
|
|
Im not going CT26, ive got somthing aftermarket far more capable in mind ;p
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 04 September 2003 14:11
|
|
| Quote: |
Im not going CT26, ive got somthing aftermarket far more capable in mind ;p
|
Good to hear  What turbo are you going for? Let me know how it goes, I'm looking to upgrade in the next 6 months... Cant decide between Garrett's 320 hp GT25, or the 400hp GT25 with the much bigger compressor side..... might be a bit laggy 
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 05 September 2003 00:06
|
|
| TE72_Turbo wrote on Thu, 04 September 2003 22:34 |
| Quote: |
but when brand new sets of 4A-GZE forged and coated pistons are only $400, who cares??
|
Where from? I want some! Are the early GZE (8:1 comp) and late GZE (8.9:1 comp) pistons interchangeable? Basically I want to know if the rods are the same, just the pistons make the difference in compression.
|
AFAIK - the pistons are physically identically as far as rods etc go, just the compression is upped to 8.9:1 and they are forged and coated varieties. Also available in oversize! Check the FAQ section of http://www.twincam.org for part numbers. Yes $400 is for the latest variant.
|
|
|
Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET possibly CA18DET
|
Fri, 05 September 2003 02:34
|
|
Hi all,
I think you will find most people here who favour the 4AGTE option are hardcore Toyota fans and their options are somewhat limited to all things Toyota. Flame away........ 
To build a 4AGTE is going to cost a lot more than dropping in a CA18DET and possibly a smidge more than an SR20DET. I have looked into the CA18 option myself as the SR is quite tall and needs more work to get into the car etc plus it is more expensive to get as a front cut - then of course you can go for days about the CA18 vs SR20 deal. But that's a tangent.
The 4agte will need an aftermarket computer and a shit one like the microtech is about a grand. You can buy a CA18 front cut for about 2k so you have spent half on the 4agte and you have not even touched the motor.
The CA18 is already RWD has a computer that can be re-programmed by the user with not too much effort (if you can surf the net you can learn how to do it), comes with all the hardware you need and the only really custom things you will need is the mounts.
Things like the exhaust, FMIC, upgrade to fuel system etc are really sunk costs as they will need to occur with either motor option.
I will probably be going the CA18 option as I don't have any issues with non-Toyota bits. But TE72 has had some pretty impressive results with his 4AGTE. I guess you need to weigh up the extra cost of the 4AGTE over either the SR or CA in parallel to your 'loyalty' to Toyota.
5 cents worth
|
|
|
Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
April 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 05 September 2003 05:15
|
|
I seen many sr20det in ae86s, from japan and in australia, but never actaully in real life etc,
Does anyone actaully know what mods are needed, I will measure a sr20det on the weekend, and get some ideas for heights and sump position and all that.
|
|
|
Registered:
April 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 05 September 2003 06:28
|
|
Im interesting in the SR20 conversion ..... Im in the process of looking for a good engine and gearbox combination for my track car.
Any confirm how hard it will be to fit height,sump,mounts,etc
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 05 September 2003 11:22
|
|
I'd take the CA/SR 9 times out of 10.
Only reason I'd do a 4agte is that it bolts in...
|
|
|
Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 05 September 2003 11:24
|
|
you know an sr20 RWD front cut will cost about$3000? They are very popular and therefore they charge quite a bit for them.
personally i would get the 4agte. But I am Toyota biased like just about everybody else here
|
|
|
Location:
EPPING SYDNEY
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 05:59
|
|
Can anyone tell me the which is better in a sprinter, SR20 or CA18.
Also, wouldnt the front be very heavy, effecting the performance for cornering.
|
|
|
Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 06:33
|
|
|
sr20 is better imo. and you can offset the weight balance by getting someone who knows there stuff with suspension to set up your car.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisvegas
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 07:00
|
|
In terms of cost 4agte vs sr20 i personally think the gte is the cheaper option. Im getting a 4agte built up atm...im paying around 3-3.5k,installed for motor, exhaust, fmic and ihi rhb5 gtx familia turbo using standard ecu & a japspec t50
quick question though...is there any issues in relation to balance/handling of the car with the nissan motor going in?
if you had to choose between sr20 or ca18 i'd go ca18...but thats personal preference speaking
|
|
|
Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 09:28
|
|
|
Long term it might not be cheaper when you blow up a few T50s and finally decide to do a supra box conversion........
|
|
|
Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 09:29
|
|
|
the sr is heavier. like i said it can be sorted with supsension mods.
|
|
|
Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 09:33
|
|
|
heavier by how much though?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 09:34
|
|
|
I wouldn't have thought there would be much in it with the SR20 being all alloy and the CA18 being all cast iron...anyone know the exact figures?
|
|
|
Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 10:20
|
|
|
i meant sr heavier than 4a. to be honest i dont know how much but i know its heavier.
|
|
|
Location:
EPPING SYDNEY
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 15:14
|
|
I guess most of the people prefer SR over CA
Also, would the standard diff last long with the SR engine
And what type of power should i expect.
PS. Do u think u can fit an air-con with the SR ?
|
|
|
Registered:
March 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 22:10
|
|
how much hp is that familiar turbo rated, how much kh or hp r u guys looking at with that turb
|
|
|
Location:
Brisvegas
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 23:45
|
|
save yourself some pain and do the diff at the same time as the conversion if i were you
sprinterboy:the gtx turbo is rated somewhere in the vicinity on 180-200hp from what i've found(something doesnt feel right about that fig)... but it'll do until i can get cash saved up
|
|
|
Registered:
March 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Thu, 30 October 2003 23:58
|
|
|
howz the spool up on those?
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 31 October 2003 00:38
|
|
|
Just to add interest here, a mate and I are sort of 'competing' - he's doing some fairly serious work to his 200sx, I'm doing likewise to my 4ag turbo sprinter - when they're done, I'll let you all know how it goes!
|
|
|
Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 31 October 2003 00:47
|
|
CA revs harder and can take a bit more boost that the SR because of the bucket/shim arrangement for the valve actuation. the CA is a strong little engine, if a little bit heavy for what it is, and is physically smaller which means it is easy to fit into most engine bays.
that said, the CA doesn't respond as well to boost increases as the SR, and the SR isn't as weak as people think it is. the SR is a newer, AUS delivered engine with parts galore available and the quad throttle head from the GTiR bolts straight on. the SR gearbox also has more sporty ratios than the CA.
4A turbos are great to drive, great response, fantastic power delivery, sound horny, and have parts galore but a 4AGTE as mentioned before will cost a fair bit to build PROPERLY and there is a lot of custom manifolding and plumbing to be done.
definitely the more expensive option.
or you could just put in a 13B turbo and piss EVERYONE off!!
for the sake of 2 engine mounts and a gearbox xmember, and after looking at those pics posted of the sprinter conversion, GO THE SR20DET!! love that exh. manifold....mmmm.... 
|
|
|
Location:
Brisvegas
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 31 October 2003 00:50
|
|
| Quote: |
howz the spool up on those?
|
not too much lag at all...should come on full boost around 2.5-3k but the stock ecu limits boost to about 12psi...i wouldnt want to boost it over 14 anyway...not until i get some nice hks gear 
conversion is still a work in progress so i havent had the chance to test out any theories...will keep you posted
|
|
|
Location:
Sacramento, CA, United St...
Registered:
October 2003
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 31 October 2003 02:12
|
|
SR20DET's are rattley, noisey, low revving boatanchors. I'd go a 4AGTE long before i'd go an SR20. Of course i'd do a 3SGTE before either on them but your budget won't stretch to that. The only good thing about an SR20 is that a turbo is strapped to the side and that's the only thing that save's it. In nearly all other regards it's a pretty ordinary engine i reckon...single row chain driven cams (jesus even 18RG's where double row), alloy block as heavy as a cast iron 3SGE, rocker arm cams, shit inlet manifold, prone to oil surge etc etc.
Just me 2 cents
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 31 October 2003 02:21
|
|
Well, I guess I don't need to tell everyone where my preferences lie. The SR weighs bugger all more than a 4age buy the time you add turbo, manifold, piping etc etc. It also makes more power with no internal mods than a 4agte could ever dream of. So, at the end of the day, it's a stronger, more powerful motor that is easy to fit and hardly affects the handling and dynamics of the car.
Pics can be found at http://www.pbase.com/sr20ae86
If anyone has any questions in relation to how easy the fitment is, I'm glad to advise, but don't go thiking I'm a library like some have in the past (Youngy excluded)
Chris
|
|
|
Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 31 October 2003 02:25
|
|
| JustenGT4 wrote on Fri, 31 October 2003 13:12 |
SR20DET's are rattley, noisey, low revving boatanchors. I'd go a 4AGTE long before i'd go an SR20. Of course i'd do a 3SGTE before either on them but your budget won't stretch to that. The only good thing about an SR20 is that a turbo is strapped to the side and that's the only thing that save's it. In nearly all other regards it's a pretty ordinary engine i reckon...single row chain driven cams (jesus even 18RG's where double row), alloy block as heavy as a cast iron 3SGE, rocker arm cams, shit inlet manifold, prone to oil surge etc etc.
Just me 2 cents
|
not a fan obviously...
it's funny you mention the timing chain...that is the reason they are "noisy and rattly". most newer cars run belts (ala 4A) which means they are much quieter in operation. chains are much more reliable and yes the older engines ran a dbl row (my L18 in my 180B is a dbl row too). a single row timing chain is really all that's needed unless you've got really heavy duty valve springs and a high lift cam(s).
the alloy block is heavier because of the extra bracing and reinforcing nissan engineers decided would be a good idea. it would be a lot heavier (and weaker) if it were just a cast block with that much reinforcing.
and the inlet manifold...note how i mentioned the quad throttles from the GTiR? it's not like the manifold on the 4A is any better either, i'll bet you were thinking about a custom one on the 4A so why compare apples and oranges?
i'm a BIG fan of the 4AGTE and GZE and SR and CA but all engines have their strengths and weaknesses.
you have presented a very biased arguement in what was not meant to be a Nissan VS Toyota thread.
|
|
|
Registered:
September 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 31 October 2003 04:28
|
|
13b??? isn't that more difficult to fit???
how about a different flavour...4g63T.
just a thought...peace..
|
|
|
Location:
Brisvegas
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
|
Registered:
October 2003
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 31 October 2003 05:35
|
|
|
go the SR................ bigger engine, and u can rip spares outta 200's etc.
|
|
|
Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: 4AGTE VS SR20DET
|
Fri, 31 October 2003 06:14
|
|
Your right Nick, the 13B turbo is not a legal conversion into the AE86 - unless of course you go fora full chassis and then try and get the car registered as a single build since it is so far removed from the factory build - but really, who is going to do that!
Of course there is nothing wrong with doing the conversion and hoping for the best............
|
|
|
