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Registered:
June 2002
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1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 07:03
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I know this is a topic that may have been covered many times before but what are the advantages and disadvantages of putting either the 1JZ or 7M-GTE into an MA-61 supra, apart from the head gasket problems with the 7M?
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 07:53
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lol safe answer Nark i started a few of these in my younger toymods days...
dewd just read through the older forums there's heap of info on both engines and they are both great performing machines read and the choice is yours
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 08:18
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OK here's the short answer:
1JZ-GTE
Pros:
- Modern design
- No headgasket problems (factory steel headgasket)
- Stronger internals means it's capable of more power without serious bottom-end mods
- Has more power than the 7M from the factory
- Easily obtainable from import wreckers
Cons:
- Parts aren't as easy to come by (you can still get em though)
- Not as many people know about them
- Some backyard engineering is usually involved to make em work
7M-GTE
Pros:
- Been around for ages
- Huge knowledge-base (ie people have been screwing with them for over 15 years)
- Parts are relatively easy to obtain
- Minor upgrades (up to 350-400hp) are fairly cheap and easy
- Nearly a bolt-in for many cars
Cons:
- Well known head-sealing problems
- Getting harder to find a good example(they're all at least 10 years old now)
- Serious power upgrades cost serious $$$
- At the end of the day, it's yesterday's technology - the JZ engines are just better, as you would expect from a newer design.
No flames please, I'm trying to be objective here. 
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I supported Toymods
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 08:27
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The 1jz is a better engine from factory simple...
But the 7m is still a nice engine..
Problem is.. Finding a "Fresh" 7m from the wreckers is difficult.. Considering some of the 7m-gte's in the world were blowing HG's at around 80k km's..
The 1j comes with a Metal HG.. Doesnt that just say it all?
If your willing to strip a 7m down and build it up strong then Its a real weapon..
But at the end of the day.. You can buy a 1j and plonk it in and it would be good for reliable driving..
Just keep saving and get a 2jz-gte.. Now thats a DONK!
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 08:30
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How does the 1G engine rate compared to both of these?????
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 08:45
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The 1G is in a totally different class, as it is much smaller - both in capacity and external dimensions. It's basically a 4A-GE with a couple of cylinders added.
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 09:16
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Anyone know how much lighter the 1j is over the 7mgte?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 09:32
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not too much man
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 09:42
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I'd have said not at all.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Mon, 29 July 2002 23:57
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Agreed. The 7M and 1JZ have similar overall dimensions, and both have cast iron blocks. This would suggest the weights are very similar.
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I supported Toymods
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Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 00:36
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Wow...this is quite possibly the most diplomatic thread we've ever had when someone has asked this question!
Wheres Allan? 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 01:53
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so far not bad i will say tho norb's costs $$$ to get power from the 1j too a single turbo conversion costs mega $
i would have to say for the problems with the 7m if i had the choice i would go 1UZ-FE rather then 1JZ why fuck around maken mounts for a JZ when you can do the same stuffing around and get 190+kw NA in a lighter engine
but the 7M bolts in no stuffing around you can bolt the MA61's manual up to it if thats your choice.
Allan
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 03:09
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| Quote: |
That's one of the major attractions of the 7M, if you're putting it into a car which already has an M series engine. Don't expect a stock MA61 5-speed to last long behind a serious turbo 6, or a V8 for that matter!
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Well one of my mates (SUPRAGTE) who has a 7m in a ma61 pushing 225 at the wheels has not had a problem with his W Box.. and he drives that thing like a 225kw Ma61 should be driven
While we are on this topic...
How hard is it to put a 1jz into a Ma70 N/A ? Does the bellhousing line up? Ive heard its just a change of the jza70 crossmember..
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 03:23
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I thought the W boxes were supposed to be fairly strong, I suppose it comes down to what sort of condition they are in also.
Oh, and lets not forget Jamie!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 04:37
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A second generation W58 should be able to handle the load OK (that's what I'm using), but I'd have reservations about a first-gen box. I know people use them behind 7M's and they last OK, but on the other hand I have a friend who has destroyed two R154's behind a stock 7M! It all comes down to driving style really...
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I supported Toymods
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Perth
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May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 04:54
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Yeah, any car can kill a box if treated like shit!
By second gen. do you mean like out of later Supra? What do you have to change to make them fit in place of the earlier ones?
What car is this on?
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I supported Toymods
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 04:59
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By full throttle shifting, after you implying flat-shifting or just driving it hard?
Yeah, I thought there were a couple of differences between the old and new ones, how do you put a new one in place of the old one?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 07:22
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First and second generation boxes appear to be pretty much identical from the outside. It should be a direct swap (at least that's what I'm counting on).
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I supported Toymods
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Location:
Sydney
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July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 12:50
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Dude, for starters, why spend $4000+ on putting a 1jz or 7M in a MA61, when you can get a MA70 for $8,000+
sell your MA61 and get a real supra !!!
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 13:19
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Easy, some people value the 3-400 kg less weight and correspondingly more agile handling and performance.
Horses for courses.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Tue, 30 July 2002 15:05
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Speak to Zorro. His mate has a 1JZ in a Mk2 Supra and his mate has a JZA70, both autos. Guess which one has 4 lengths on the other over the quarter?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Wed, 31 July 2002 02:45
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What sort of MA70 are you going to get for $8k? It would most likely be atmo, or a clapped-out turbo. Either way, the 1JZ MA61 would walk all over it!
"Get a real Supra"? How about you get a clue!
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Wed, 31 July 2002 03:09
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Wise words Norbie...amen 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 01:56
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Dude,
yes, you are right, most MA70 supras around that price may be clapped out turbo's or atmos. I probably should have said you could get one from $9000 up.
The thing is, half way through last year a dude in newcastle advertised his 1987 MA70 (ga) it had a 1GGTEU 2 litre Twin overhead cam Twin Turbo in it.
It was Personally imported into Australia from Japanin 1999.
I bought that supra, it was advertised for $7,700, but I got it for $7,000.
That Supra was immaculate, and only had 140,000km complete with logbooks.
That Supra became one of the most well known cars on the Central Coast, and was absolutley PERFECT inside and out.
To prove that the car was immacculate, and worth more than I paid for it, I advertised it in the Trading Post for $10,000
I had so many phone calls it was ridiculus.
The first person to come over and look at it gave me $10,000 cash for it.
Dont assume i dont know what Im talking about, I have owned alot more toyotas than probably most people on this forum.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 02:33
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Dude,
I meant the MA70 looks so much better.
Dont start hassling me, when all you have is a MA61
I just sold one of my MA61's for $7,000.
Chances are, yours would not sell for that amount of money
As per the 1GGTEU, you are right,STANDARD it does not compare with the 1JZGTE or 7MGTE but the 1GGTEU at least beats the atmo non turbo MA70's and shit kickers MA61 Dinosours.
I love the shape and styling of the MA61, but it in no way compares to the MA70.
And before you start hassling the 1GGTEU, when it has two NEW garrett ball bearing turbos running 14.5psi, like mine, it beats the shit out of everything except 1JZs and a few skylines.
My 1GGTEU was faster than my mates standard 7MGTE(180kw)
It may be only a 1GGTEU, but new turbos and a bit of boost make it 200% better, ALMOST as good as a standard 1JZGTE.
Standard 1GGTEU puts out 156kw.
Mine with mods put out 203kw
Standard 1JZ is 207kw.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 03:02
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Lets just agree that people like different cars, and people like different engines.
Personally, i think the 1JZ is the answer to any Toyota owners dreams.
It just comes down to what you can afford, with both cars, and engines.
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 03:11
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| SUPRA MAN wrote on Thu, 01 August 2002 12:33 PM |
Dont start hassling me, when all you have is a MA61
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Thems fightin' words !!
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and shit kickers MA61 Dinosours.
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now your making assumptions.
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My 1GGTEU was faster than my mates standard 7MGTE(180kw)
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Thats not saying much.
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Standard 1GGTEU puts out 156kw.
Mine with mods put out 203kw
Standard 1JZ is 207kw.
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[quote]
What form of specululation did you employ to determine a flywheel figure for your car ??
There are stock 1ggte's that would OWN you.
I love it when people get all narky when defending thier cars.
Matt
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 03:24
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yeah, Im just getting defensive.
I have owned both MA61 and MA70 supras, and i love them both, but, the newer the better i say.
the figures were given to me by the previous owner who did the mods.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 04:00
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| TOYO3T wrote on Thu, 01 August 2002 1:11 PM |
There are stock 1ggte's that would OWN you.
I love it when people get all narky when defending thier cars.
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Was that a subliminal reference to me?
You don't need new turbos to be making that power.
My car matched a 1UZ-FE (194kW from the factory) at the last dyno day and my engine is stock. Using the same drivetrain loss would put Darren's old engine (stock turbos running 14psi) at over 230kW.
Power is power, but when you're pulling an xA70, you need torque. Power figures are pretty irrelevant unless you're on the track.
As for the weight thing, an MA61 will not weigh 1250kg. My RA60 weighs 1220kg with half a tank!
An MA61 would be closer to 1400kg. An MA70 would be about 1700kg.
As for looks, it's personal opinion. I think the MA61 is the tuffest-looking Toyota ever made. xA70s are nice, but I'd never have one, it's just too heavy. I like to chuck my cars around, and it's just too scary to do with heavy cars.
And can we all behave. Keep it civilised, no more personal attacks or else I have to get nasty. 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 04:19
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MY MA61 roughly 1400kg
MY MA70 1490kg
Thanks for your input, very helpful.
cheers.
SUPRA MAN
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 04:23
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For what it's worth, MA61 weighs 1340-80 Kg depending on level of spec. Not 100% certain of the MA70, but I do remember a number like high 1500 - 1600 kg. Now that's a whale looking for a beach! That doesn't mean it doesn't look good, but merely reflects a level of comfort and appointment not seen in the Mk2. Toyota understood this and went to great lengths to keep the Mk4 'light', like hollow fibre carpet!
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
July 2002
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 Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 05:04
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there is no such thing as a "light" Supra, definately not a MKIII or IV.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 05:07
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Considering the size of the car, you can see Toyota went to great lengths in removing some of the weight from the Mk4 Supra over the bloated Mk3!
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 05:17
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they shaved 100kg...1490-1510kg is still a pretty hefty car considering it is a 2 door sports car not a family car or anything. Compare that to say a 180sx or something that weighs 1100kg....
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 05:32
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Compare the size of the thing with a 180SX though!
Also, you can't forget big things like this...
Compare the size of S13 180SX brakes...
front 250mm vented discs with single-piston callipers
rear 258mm solid discs with single-piston callipers
with 95+ Supra brakes...
front 323mm vented discs with HUGE 4-piston callipers
rear 324mm vented discs with 2-piston callipers
The S13 had McPherson strut front with "multi-link" rear IRS whereas the Supra has kick-arse double wishbone suspension.
Supra has an iron-block 3l six-cylinder hanging out the front compared to either a very small CA18DET which is even lighter than an SR20DET.
There is a heap more, all these things add up!
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 05:52
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My jza70 5 speed weighs 1580 kg. Without mods.
So probably more than that even.
So yes it is a bit of a barge, but I wouldn't criticise it till you have driven one in good condition.
My supra is one of the most chuckable and predictable cars to drive on the edge I have driven. Contrary to popular belief i think this is directly related to its weight.
I challenge ANYBODY, (in this club) to outdrift Andy (Burgundy jza70 at dyno day 5)from newcastle. The guy is a freak and he puts it all down to the predictable/chuckable nature of the mkiii supra. the key feature being balance and large weight.
Besides anything with a boosted 1j will always seem half it size when you boot it !!!
Matt
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 06:00
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I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the Mk3! I just think a lot of people just assume that newer = better, in the case of SUPRA MAN and his GA70 Supra.
I'm sure you could find that a Mk2 Supra could be endowed with exactly the same amount of flexibility at the limit due to its lighter weight! They are both FR coupes, I'm assuming the Mk3 has a good weight distribution like the Mk2...
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 06:03
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The point of my last thread also was that you can compare a 180SX/Silvia with a Supra. One is a light, small sports car and the other is a physically bigger Sports/GT.
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 06:09
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I love my jza70.
but if i ever had to do a project car, or get something a little cheaper. it would almost certainly be a 1j powered ma61.
jza61's (can i call it that ?) ROCK!
Matt
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 06:18
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Shit yeah, there is no denying that the 1JZGTE is an awesome engine, and all Supras are excellent.
You can damn well call it a JZA61 as long as I can call mine a UZA61 when its finished! (Shit, sounds like a bloody submarine or something!)
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 07:26
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I think it sounds more like a sub machine gun actually!!
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
toyo3t is right about the supra, they are great to drive( and more right about andrew for that matter!)...I think they are well balanced which relates to some real fast corner speeds, but the weight is also a concern there as I've had the weight of the car simply overpower the tyres and the whole lot went drifting towards a large silver barrier!
oh and I know a guy with a nissan 720 4X4 who could out-drift just about anybody!  (that should stir everyone up!)
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 07:43
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I've driven my fair share of Mk3 Supras as well as Mk2's, and I have to say the Mk3 is a far more stable chassis... they are capable of awesome cornering speeds. However there is no denying they are a heavy car, and you really can feel that once you start throwing the car down a twisty mountain road. My Mk2 feels much better in those circumstances, it is far more agile - and that's what I like in a car!
BTW there is no way a Mk3 Supra weighs 1490kg! A friend put his MA70 turbo on a weighbridge and it was over 1650kg from memory. Sure a poverty-pack GA70 may be a little less, but there wouldn't be that much in it.
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 07:50
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You do feel the size of the car in the twisties , not in the handling, but in the brakes.
My last couple of runs on the pacific h'way, saw me coasting at least half of the small straights to be sure i would pull up at the other end.
I'm hoping a decent brake improvement will fix this aspect of the car.
Maybe some greenstuff pads, and some dot5.1 fluid with a kit for the calipers, and machine the rotors ??
Matt
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 07:50
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The lightest specs I've seen for a Mk2 were 1430kg for a 1GGE GA70. Hate to think how slow that would be. Speaking of chassis control...girlfriend had her Matiz at a panel beater today...had the bonnet open, f'ing thing has a strut tower brace!
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 08:03
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um...ok...
trying not to make this personal...
FACTORY dry weight as specified by Toyota: sure, it's going to be different to real world weight (usually an underestimate) but is a starting ground for comparisons:
MA61: 1265 kg
MA70: 1570 kg
to get equal power to weight ratio between the cars, you'd have to run a 24.11% more powerful engine in the MA70.
lets just completely forget about torque (like people love to sometimes) for a moment, and look at hp only.
so to compete with a stock standard 230hp 7mgte in a ma61, the ma70 would require a 285.5hp engine. Now its taken *someone* here a crapload of money to get 272hp (apparently) out of a 1ggte. spend that same money on a 7mgte in a ma61, and then decide who's been pissing their money in the wind.
fine, you might argue the ma70 is a nicer looking car, more modern etc etc, but to lead your argument with 'why waste your money, buy a real supra', followed up with 'ive got a kick arse 1ggte, watch me fly', and summed up with, 'dont hassle me, youve only got an ma61' and youre not earning yourself any credability.
basically if youve modded your car to the shithouse, dont attempt to compare it to stock. and dont expect were all so stupid as to go oohh ahhh.
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 08:20
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Very nicely put doood..
and as for the greenstuff and fluid and all that...I got Greenstuff in the front, and sumitomo in the rear (havn't replaced them yet)....made a huge difference..but it won't make up the simple lack of braking in the cars from the factory....
I'm going to look into the fronts from a hilux 4wd (don't laugh!)
as they are big, albeit heavy, 4 piston jobs...
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 08:20
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For the record, I actually prefer the styling of the MA61 to the MA70.
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Location:
Yowie Bay, Sydney
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 08:49
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hey guys, just thought i'd throw on my skirt and have a bitch too.... all i think of a mk3 supra... ummm reminds me of a series 4 rx7, and being the anti rotor person i am, u can keep ya mk3 supra, as for the quote "get a real supra" i think u should get a real car, SPRINTER!!
yes i wrote it just so u can all bitch some more! so bite me
and i got an ma61 too with a 5m, funny how i beat a mk3 the other day
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 09:27
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Thu, 01 August 2002 3:50 PM |
The lightest specs I've seen for a Mk2 were 1430kg for a 1GGE GA70. Hate to think how slow that would be. Speaking of chassis control...girlfriend had her Matiz at a panel beater today...had the bonnet open, f'ing thing has a strut tower brace!
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Why she have a strut tower brace? she got a thing for taking dodgy cars for some fun off road sideways ackshun?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 09:39
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Nah, I'd say in an effort to make the car as roomy as possible on the inside, they skimped on the chassis somewhere and had to improve the rigidity.
The this has an awfully huge amount of interior space considering the exterior dimensions.
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 09:45
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Corvid,
I converted my MA-70 manual to a 1jz-gte manual using a jza-70 front cut. The 7M gearbox will NOT mount up to a 1jz, you need a 1jz bellhousing. Also you may not need a cross member from a jza-70, only if your car is pre-89. But the p/s reseviour, engine fan reseviour, clutch master etc etc are all different as are many small things. Some wiring needs to be done too.
rest of posters,
I love my jz powered MA70 but people are right to say it is NOT a sports car, it's a GT car. It's heavy, big, comfy seats, cruise, TEMS, air-con.... and a lot of fun to chuck around corners coz the rear wheels do the driving! (the suspension in the mk3 is farkin good though - very adjustable, double wishbones and built like a brick shithouse) but I doubt it would beat a ma61 with similar power. As the diplomatic posting has finished, both motors would be a lot of fun!
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 17:04
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Hay Matt hows your car going with the twin pipes? I've got my new intercooler and its huge!! We should all meet up agian with the boys again and head up Holme's house for another good run.
By the way all, my MA61 weighs exactly 1320kg with the 1JZ engine and 1/2 tank of gas.
Frank
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
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Thu, 01 August 2002 22:55
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Hi Frank,
The twin pipes rock, I was up at Holme's last weekend.
And cracked 5.36 o-100, after only 3 attempts ( other two were ludicrous whelspin) , With two in the car !!!
remember I'm a manual too !
best hold hp fig, of 284 rwhp !! up from around 250.
So yeah I'm stoked, yeah we need to cruise again soon. I'll be in newy the next two weekends. gimme a call 0411240651.
cya
Matt
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Re: 1jz vs 7M-GTE
where in god's name does the 'get a real supra' call come from 
