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Location:
Devonport, Tasmania
Registered:
July 2003
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how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 02 December 2003 04:58
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ok, i'm lookin at buyin a 3t gte, and i wanna be able to get 200+ hp out of it without blowing the bank account wide open. where do i start 
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 02 December 2003 05:45
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200hp at wheels or engine?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 02 December 2003 05:51
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Intercooler, better turbo (eg CT26) and a good exhaust should be all it takes if you're after 200rwhp. Much more than that and you'll probably need upgraded management, and that's where it starts getting expensive!
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Location:
Devonport, Tasmania
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 02 December 2003 05:59
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chances are i will buy a different management system. what stuff can be done internally? how much is it to get pistons forged? what about head work and cam work? anyone got ideas and prices there? oh, rwhp
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Location:
Brisvegas
Registered:
June 2003
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Registered:
June 2003
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 02 December 2003 13:05
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Last time I check the price of forgies for a 3TGTE was $1200, for just the pistons, pretty expensive.
Haydennz would love to know how the car goes with the new exhaust, I currently have a 2 - 2 1/2 inch exhaust on mine and was wondering whether it would be worthwhile for the upgrade. Would appreciate if you could PM me after friday and let me know
Cheers
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 02 December 2003 14:47
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Regardless of the mods, if you don't wind the boost up, you wont make any more than the original 160BHP. My current engine has a pod filter (basically a space requirement), recond injectors, standard computer and knock computer, T28 turbo with a 7.3psi waste gate, and a mandrel bent 3" exhaust, and puts out 135RWHP at 6200rpm. Avoid the forged pistons unless you have at least $1500 for purchase and installation, but this will solve alot of the 3TGTE's inherent problems in doing so.
In keeping the bank balance happy, I'd also recommend better turbo, intercooler, and boost to 10psi on standard pistons and computers.
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 02 December 2003 19:43
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Clg is at the 200hp, hmm i wonder how much of that extra was attributed to the new turbo
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Wed, 03 December 2003 02:55
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No, I'm not. I'm still at the standard 160 ENGINEHP (135RWHP)in my W58 manual car, power losses aren't like those of an automatic trans driveline. I'd propose, you'd have to be making in the vicinity of 235-240 BHP to get 200RWHP, in the same setup. The only reason the T28 is there, is due tue it's better design and construction. With only a 7.3psi wastegate, it's actually making 0.2psi boost less than the CT20.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Wed, 03 December 2003 21:21
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Clint,
Drive train loses will be somewhere around the 30% mark dude so you are actually pretty close to 200kw at the flywheel.
But who really cares what its making at the flywheel anyway. It what it gets to the ground that counts !
Dead stock 3TGTE's seem to turn figures in the 85 - 95 rwkw range.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Thu, 04 December 2003 01:17
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Thanks Rod. The only true way to find out the exact drivetrain differences would involve runing the motor on an engine dyno, then on a chassis dyno once installed in the car, and you've got no hope of me doing this!!! In comparing power out puts at the wheels, I recently did a standard 3TGTE conversion for "myta22". He is still only running a 2" exhaust, and standard turbo, which resulted in a dyno run (on the same dyno too) of 115RWHP, which should have been from the standard 160BHP. This is 71% of the engine power figure, so I'm happy to support you on your statement of 30% power losses. Using that factor with my 135 RWHP means I'm putting out around 190BHP.
The only differences I really feel from the old CT20 setup, is that the car has alot more torque down low. In motorkhanas I compete in, I can leave the line at 2000rpm and still spin tyres, as the motor works through the rev range. I will admit, I don't really see much difference up in the rev range, but by then, I'm looking for the next cone to pass - or run over!!!
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Thu, 04 December 2003 03:44
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Doh,
Just to clarify - I was in a hurry this morning and misread your post. 153rwhp is around 200 fwhp. NOT kw as i typed above. Sorry about that.
115hp is 85kw  or there abouts.
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Sat, 06 December 2003 13:50
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| haydennz wrote on Tue, 02 December 2003 19:20 |
im on the same path dude, stock 3tgte, i want 150rwkw, which from the looks of things should get me to 0-100k in 5.5secs( i want a skyline killer! ) 1120kg's of car. current ??hp gets me to 100k in 8.0 secs, can get to dead on 120k from 0k within 200metres too, this sound bout right for 1120kg's and 155hp? gearbox has a hell delay(prob about a sec  !!::!) into 2nd and everything.
Doing exhuast(3" mandral straight pipe - booked in friday) and rx7 intercooler and custom CAI(exhuast guy is doing that too)
hopefully get me to 185ish hp and perhaps to 100k in 7 or less.
yes accerlation is quite important to me  not worried about top end really. eg> 150k
Will let you know how things eventuate, from what ive heard upgrading the exhuast to 3" makes them into a death machine, eg. no taper off at 5400rpm etc meaning more power for longer.
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How does the new exhaust go? Let me know if possible
Thanks
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Registered:
June 2003
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Sun, 07 December 2003 12:26
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I've never said I make less power up top, I have said I'm running 0.2psi less than a standard setup, are you confusing this statement?
My setup again is: HKS Power Flow Filter, modified AFM (Spring adjusted to stop the computer running rich), S14 T28 brass bearing Turbo, reconditioned standard injectors, standard MA61 style fuel pump, standard T28 wastegate at 7.3psi, mandrel bent 3" exhaust system (no resonators or hot dogs, just the turbo and a Dynomax Straight Through Stainless Steel Muffler at the rear), disabled fuel overboost sensor, and 98 octane fuel for safety. This results in a 30BHP increase, and has only cost me around $3000 (including installation and recond turbo), so bang for buck - not, but it is a more reliable setup than the CT20 turbo.
Don't forget, the T28 is "around" the same size, but is a far superior turbo, compared to the CT20 - ie, they are not the same all things considered.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Sun, 07 December 2003 13:02
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Getting 200hp at the wheels isn't a cheap option. I have this power from my 3T GTE now, actually 145kw @ 14psi at the wheels.
The pistons, cams etc are standard, I have bigger injectors, full 3 inch exhaust, Garrett 320hp BB turbo, custom manifold (ceramic coated, EVO 5 intercooler, blow off valve and Microtech fuel/ignition control.
Cheers,
Simon
http://users.chariot.net.au/~stmezz/celica.htm
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Sun, 07 December 2003 13:09
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but realisticly you hafta spend quite a bit of dosh on any engine to get to 200hp atw.. only killer about the 3tgteu is the stupid stock ecu, what about a ct26 @ 14psi with rx7 injectors/upgraded fuel pump and just a AFM recalibration, would that work? .. be shitty idle, should be aight on boos ttho?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Sun, 07 December 2003 13:13
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Whats wrong with the stanard computer?
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Registered:
June 2003
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Sun, 07 December 2003 14:01
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I'd be happy to run the standard computer till the injectors reach their duty cycle, then I'd be looking for larger injectors that the computer can still run with. It will handle any boost you care to give it - it keeps dumping fuel in to compensate boost, but you will have to address the pistons after 10/11psi - they're not built to take any more.
Althought the computers run rich, they still return good ecconomy, mine averages 9-9.5L/100Km, and I'd rather have a rich forced induction engine, than a lean one, it's a good safety margin.
In looking for a pump, you need to match delivery to your application. Make sure the pump can hold sufficient pressure throughout the rev range. Ask the experts regarding your application would be the easiest answer to matching a fuel pump.
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Sun, 07 December 2003 14:04
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dont stock pistons hold up over 11psi even if you install a intercooler etc?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Sun, 07 December 2003 14:31
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I personally wouldn't do it, but try it and let me know if you get much further?!!!   
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Mon, 08 December 2003 06:31
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I mucked around with the stock ecu/injectors etc. The problem with the stock ecu is simply that is old technology and can only be tuned for one condition, eg boost at wot or idle etc etc. You can get it right under boost, but I found that it cost me under cold start etc.
Running a fully programmabe ecu is the way to go. I was glad to get rid of the stock AFM.
I'm at 14 psi now on stock pistons. No problems at all, I wouldn't do it with the stock ecu though. I doubt the stock system would yield the 145kw I now have at the wheels with an aftermarket ecu.
As long as the tuning is right, the stock pistons are good for more kw than you think.
Cheers,
Simon
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Thu, 22 January 2004 09:00
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what sort of hp would i be looking at with a stock 3TGTEU 2.5 inch echaust and maby a CT26? every thing else is standard. 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Thu, 22 January 2004 10:50
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180-200BHPish
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Mon, 08 March 2004 10:02
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this i quite easy i have done it. all you really need is a front mount (jap wrecker) after marcket ecu, rising rate reg and boost. I used standard engine and turbo, i die grinded to exhaust manifold to match the turbo exhaust inlet. i free flowing 3 inch exhaust, and i used 24pound boost it was reliable it ran like this for 5 years and made just over 220hp at wheels
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Location:
in a box
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 09 March 2004 10:51
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easy, i got 135rwkw on 9psi
that was enough 2 push my sprinter harder then any sr20det s13/180sx of the line or rollin.
ct26
haltech ek6
7mgte injectors
GTiR intercooler
2 1/2" straight threw
3" dump
bottom end will take it, but hey if i was to do it again id either drop some forgies in thier and boost is upto 15psi with a smaller turbo say t28, but then again id say fuck the 3tgte off.
parts are a bitch, people dont know the engine and its just to old. timming and everything.
either 13bt or just use the 3sgte. new reliable and easyer to mod.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 09 March 2004 11:29
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Like I said before, I'm at 14psi on stock pistons and now thinking of increasing boost.
How much boost can the stock pistons hold? I will most likely go up to 18 psi and see what happens, only prob is that it will kill my turbo if the pistons fail. But if they hold up I save having to spend close enough to $2000 once forgies are fitted.
Simon
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 09 March 2004 12:38
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only prob is that it will kill my turbo if the pistons fail
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What do you mean? Pieces of your pistons wont go flying out the exhaust to destroy your turbo, in almost all cases, its the ring land that fails on the 3TGTE pistons, a section breaks away & floats between the rings... they dont go anywhere unless you maybe decided to drive it for another few thousand km while the piece wears its way out after breaking a ring (highly unlikely)
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 09 March 2004 12:50
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Its just that I know someone that had the landing ring fail on a 3tgte not long ago and a piece went through and damaged the turbo wheel.
I always assumed that piston failure = turbo damage.
Simon
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 09 March 2004 12:56
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That's unlucky. I've broken two 3TGTE's in the past, both broke the ring lands, neither had any pieces leave the motor though.
Then I bit the bullet & went for ROSS forgies and an aftermarket ECU.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 09 March 2004 13:03
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What happens when the pistons fail? Do you know straight away is a small piece comes away?
Maybe I should go for forged before I increase the boost again...
Do you have a contact for the forgies you used? What sort of $ were they?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 09 March 2004 13:11
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First thing I noticed with mine was a lack of power & it sounded like it was running on 3 1/2 cylinders (like a subaru )
Compression test showed low (65psi) on the cylinder with the busted piston.
I sent Australian Precision Engine Parts (APEP) in victoria a sample factory piston, and they used a ROSS blank forgie to make up a copy. From memory it cost me around $1250 with total seal gapless rings (4 years ago), took forever though (24 weeks!  ) and i've heard better things about other companies. Send a PM to "Yellorolla," as he'll have more recent info on performance parts for the 3TGTE.
Phil
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Location:
in a box
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Tue, 09 March 2004 22:41
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dont u feel that the ct20 runs out of puff at high speed. the ct20 wont handel that amount of boost for a long time.
yet ever.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Wed, 10 March 2004 09:41
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you can do this with an absoulutley standard engine, even the original turbo. my old one ran approx 220hp at rear wheels. this is how i did it and why?
remove turbo and manifold, port match the manifold to the head and to the turbo, why? this enables the turbo to spool up quick and stronger, also increases the exhaust housing flow so boost doesn't drop off at higher rpm
intall a larger exhaust from turbo back with a custom dump pipe, don't use mufflers that are to restrictive, and it needs to be three inch, why? turbo's need to breathe they become more efficient
rising rate reg and bigger fuel pump, more power equals more fuel, the injectors will get to max duty cycle pretty quick, so you can cheat and bring the fuel pressure up and in tern the duty cycle will need to drop due to the extra fuel delivery, yeah sure it's not the most ideal way to do it but it works, why? you don't want to bang pistons
after market ecu, you'll have to change the fuel map and the standard ecu can't, i actually ran an old fuel only, and standard ignition, and tuned it myself with some help from friends, why? i don't really need to explain it
boost and intercooler, now i know some of you may not believe this but i acually ran 22psi through a standard engine, it ran this way the entire time i owned it and it has been sold many times since i believe it is still running today and this was over 4 years ago. it was very reliable, i ran premium octane fuel and it never pinged, as for intercooler, just a small front mount with a good core, i used evo3 style, why? cause boost equals power, and power means fun.
thats the entire secret behind my engine, no one else could understand why it went so well maybe it was just a freak.
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Wed, 10 March 2004 12:47
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| TA22 GT wrote on Wed, 10 March 2004 00:03 |
What happens when the pistons fail? Do you know straight away is a small piece comes away?
Maybe I should go for forged before I increase the boost again...
Do you have a contact for the forgies you used? What sort of $ were they?
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You can get forgies from Sean Maloney in Melbourne, from memory they are $1200. If you need his number I am sure someone on here will have it.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Wed, 10 March 2004 13:22
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AE8620V,
Thanks for the feedback. OK, lets clarify a couple of things.
Firstly you ran a stock engine (standard head gasket) at 22psi without an issue?
If what you say is accurate I should be able to get at least this HP from my setup by just increasing boost. Currently I have 200hp at the wheels at 14psi.
I already have bigger injectors, Microtech, EVO 5 intercooler, full 3 inch exhaust and GT25 BB turbo with custom manifold.
If I increase boost to around 18 or 20psi I should be getting close to my target HP of 250 at the wheels?
so far ideas I have for more HP=more cash. Eg Forgies, custom plenum etc. Is it needed to reach 250hp at the wheels?
Maybe I should get a good electronic boost controller and just increase the boost. It would be the easy thing to do as long as the stock internals can handle it.
Simon
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Location:
Auckland
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make a 200hp 3t gte?
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Thu, 11 March 2004 05:15
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just to throw some numbers around.
we had some of our mates on the dynos with near stock 3tgteu on in a ke70 and the other in ta63 carina ..
both 118kw@wheels 10psi and 115kw@wheels 11psi respectevly.
These are near stock just air filters + minimal exhausts and a little more boost .. both figures very close to 200hp.
As far as big boost on cast pistons goes daily i run 15psi on stock bluetop (4age)internals for 291hp and my mate runs 16psi but was driving it around for about 1 month on around 25psi . they key is to have cool air intake temp and lots of fuel.
Check out our collection of dyno graphs at various stages.
I will post the links to the 3tgteu dyno graphs when i can dig them up.
Matt
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