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Registered:
August 2002
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MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 00:26
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Direct from celicasupra.com
"This is probably little help to you guy's in the states but...
The front struts from the aussie VN-VS commodore are a direct bolt in for the front of an MA61.
I have just bought a pair for $150 AUD and converted them to coilovers with a bilstein insert for an all up cost of $600 AUD.
The rears are commodore wagon FE2 springs with bilstein shocks.
Works very well."
Can you say "high availability" 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 00:40
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Haha, the mind boggles  Make sure you find out about the hubs 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 00:47
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interesting!
now where can I find a stuffed set of VS shocks lol
(to get re valved)
Cheers
Wilbo
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 00:57
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Fri, 16 January 2004 11:40 |
Haha, the mind boggles Make sure you find out about the hubs
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Veeeerrrryyyyy interesting, especially as I work for Holden ...
One thing though is that the Holden stud pattern is 5 x 120, not 5 x 114.3 as per all of the Ford stuff and other Toyotas.
It would be interesting to see whether the MS65 hubs can be mated to the Commodore struts. I have a guy one desk away from me that is fitting a pair of Commodore front hubs to his MGB - apparently they are a direct fit - I'll enquire some more.
Bilstein shocks - is that $600 in total or per side ? What rate springs did you use ? I may have to put my King Springs order on hold...
I'll try and find out what rate the FE2 wagon rear springs are for you guys
Cheers Big Ears
Michael B
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 01:00
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like its been said.....im waiting on a more detailed response from the guy that has done this, but my suspension is shot and id really like to do this by the sounds of it.
oh yeah and michael can get us all some leftover VS struts
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 01:37
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DAMN!
And my friend gave away his 6 month old VS FE2 Wagon Suspension Setup to my mate, where as I could have had it on my MA61 
Keep us all informed.
Cheers.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 02:10
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hang on guys
vn - vs struts are VERY VERY different fellas
vn and vp are same, macpherson strut, bearings are integrated into the disc rotors.
the vr and vs struts use a hub type setup (like my ta22 for example) and are extremely different when it comes to mounting.
i'd ask on celica supra which ones - vn/vp OR vr/vs????
it does offer up some interesting brake upgrades with the twin pot VT calipers available with pads for less than $100 though.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 02:22
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Gregas right there with the hub difference, although I suspect that it is just a typo.
I am interested in the strut upgrade, but only if the parts are interchangeable (i.e. MS65 hubs fit).
Have contacted SKF and they are sending me a sheet as to what the bearings are to see what is possible.
Cheers
Michael B
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 02:35
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Let us know how you get on.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Fri, 16 January 2004 02:36
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and im guessing if the MS65 hubs are interchangable, then one can run the stock hub setup for the time being as well?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Sat, 17 January 2004 02:58
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ive actually heard of a conversion using vn/vp struts into a ta22 from memory the only drama was a bearing having to be modded to fit the ta22 strut top onto the commodore shock the rest was bolt in
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Sat, 17 January 2004 02:59
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... so im guessing its vn/vp not vr/vs
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Sat, 17 January 2004 05:48
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oh nice
I go out, get full kings and kybs
and then people say coilovers are cheap
*sigh*
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Sat, 17 January 2004 08:59
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so this is a worthy upgrade for me as well? there was like 3vs commonwhores at my local wrecker
Ill pick a part if this is worth the effort and money? Blacksupra, did you think it was worth the money and effort?
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Sat, 17 January 2004 09:02
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i haven't done it
need to find out from the guy who did it if the hubs are interchangable.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Sat, 17 January 2004 09:07
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toyota and holden defintly share similer front stub axles um runing rt104 hubs on a holden trailer axle
Allan
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Sun, 18 January 2004 21:32
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| BlackSupra wrote on Fri, 16 January 2004 11:26 |
Direct from celicasupra.com
"The rears are commodore wagon FE2 springs with bilstein shocks.
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Are you talking about using Front Commodore springs in the rear of an MA61 ?
I've looked up the REAR Crumpledore springs and tehy won't fit, but for info, they have a free length of 272mm, variable rate of 51-90 N/mm, and have a compressed length of 188mm with a load of 4420 +- 150N.
Having some fun finding out spindle sizes, but from SKF, there are different bearing kits for ABS/Non-ABS, VT is different to VR/VS
I've still gone with the King Springs for the std MA61 struts, as this is an additional distraction for me, but coilovers may be an option later 
Cheers
Michael B
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Mon, 19 January 2004 02:21
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He meant the rear ones didn't he? Not mixing them up... 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Mon, 19 January 2004 02:37
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The rear Crumpldore ones aren't suitable for use in the MA61 rear as they have a small diameter last winding at each end, hence my question.
The other thing is that with the spring rate mentioned it is 290lb/in rising to 518lb/in which is pretty stiff. Mind you, these specs are for the current spring as I can't get data for the VR/VS ones at the moment.
The other thing that I have found out is that the font hubs seem to have an integral spindle & hub that actually bolts onto the strut leg, rather than having a spindle at the end of the leg like most McPherson struts.
I'm confused now.
Cheers
Michael B
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Mon, 19 January 2004 04:41
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But they changed the suspension slightly over time, we need to find the FE2 stuff as opposed to the current X or VY stuff you're looking at.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Mon, 19 January 2004 20:36
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That was FE2 spring data.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 00:27
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Hmm, ok. Well, the dude has done it, so maybe they've changed something and he's used the ones you can't get the specs on...
We really need him to just get back to us!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 01:43
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Consider your offered help requested.
If I have some part numbers, I can try and access drawings from work and provide as much info as possible
Cheers
Michael B
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 01:51
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W00t! Go team
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 02:48
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okay no worries
what exact parts do you want part numbers for - can get them up to the VS (can't get VT onwards, have diagrams ect for VT onwards tho)
let me know.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 02:53
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example, this is how the VS strut goes together with hub
let me know
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 03:43
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Hiya,
I can get that sort of info here at work for all models using Part Finder.
If you have specific part numbers, it saves me looking them up
Cheers
Michael B
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 04:15
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Grega,
would you happen to have a similar diagram for the pre-VR struts that i could get a look at?? would be appreciated!
-Scott
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 04:28
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scott certainly :
its not as detailed as the VS setup unfortunately.
all - notice the difference - the vn/vp (actually back to vb) struts stub axle is a one piece item which is an interference fit to the bottom of the macca strut. if we look at the VS style strut notice the stub axle assy actually bolts to the bottom of the strut. herein lie the difference.
michael, you'll probably recognise these pictures then...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 04:34
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Hi Grega,
Yes I do. Thanks for that.
It looks like BlackSupra that there is more to this swap than meets the eye. The Crumpledore struts connect to a ball joint with a single bolt, whereas the Toyota system uses 2 bolts and a different type of arrangement.
I guess before we all get too excited, Black Supra's mate needs to supply more info.
Meanwhile, I'll get back to my brake dilemmas
Cheers
Michael B
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 04:42
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that's exactly what i was after. thank you very much!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 05:09
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no problems scott.
michael, anytime
indeed i'd love to know how this was achieved. there is extremely little information on celicasupra.com other than what "darryl" wrote - which is quoted above.
there was a fellow on here who has either a ra23 or ra28 who has commodore brakes up front. i'll see if i can find the info again.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Location:
eastern suburbs, Melb
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 05:26
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Once you take the steering arm off the Toyota ball joint, you can slide the ball joint spindle into the bottom of the commodore strut. But I have no idea if the Toyota and commodore ball joints are the same size though.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 10:15
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Grega, is there more than one type of strut employed on the VN-VP?
i just got back from checking out the struts in a friends VN and in this instance the ball-joint spindle is bolted through a short section of tube attached parallel to the inboard side of the strut. could it be that there was a revision of the 1-piece stub/strut assembly during the production of the VN and i was looking at an older style strut? was getting weirded-out by the fact that the VN diagram shows a strut with the ball-joint outboard of the strut, but the VN i looked at had the ball-joint inboard of the strut...
that 'JZA23' is a really nice piece of work. he wrote that he used sigma control arms with the commodore struts, and i have seen posts about these and other celica arms being swapped for modifying camber whilst still using celica struts... so maybe there is a combination of control arm and ball-joint that will make the bottom end of the Commodore strut a bolt-up affair...
we need to bring in the owner of that car for interrogation. i would like to hear more about the suspension and steering behaviour. (power rack on that celica as well... very nice!)
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 12:29
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all commodores up to vs had rts...vs came out with irs and a new suspension setup, so im guessing they should be significantly different to a vn/vp/vr.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 14:53
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Darryl is on the forums! How do you get someones attention?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 14:58
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pm him, or start a topic abusing him in the title
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 14:59
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haha greg, amusing.
For easy reference: MA61
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 15:07
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An alternative option, will the VN shocks fit inside the MA61 struts?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 21:34
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scott, only aware of the strut setup in diag above...
blake, even the VS (some models) had RTS - IRS came later in the series 2 models...(my bro in law has a v8 vs berlina s1 with fixed axle)...remembering the IRS is only in the rear - we're namely dealing with the front struts here.
unless you ran a commodore lower ball joint in the lower control arm (i don't think the toyota one would be tall enough, could be wrong) you may be able to use the vn/vp strut...
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 22:16
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Probably no help but i've been discussing with 'improvedae86' on these forums, and it appears that S13 suspension goes into TA, RA and AE86 quite easily. Using Cresida control arms and ball joints its almost a bolt in job. Opens up a huge range of suspension!
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Tue, 20 January 2004 23:57
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The balljoint will be the easy part to sort out, big problem is steering. How well does the Commodore steering arm match up with the MA61? Any differences in this area could cause all sorts of handling problems.
Callum
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Wed, 21 January 2004 00:25
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This is some S13 ones for comparisons sake... 
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Wed, 21 January 2004 01:17
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You use S13 steering knuckle/hub etc also.
Means you can run the Nissan alloy 4 spots easily too
Dont know what effects this will have on bump steer etc with different steering arms.
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Location:
Burlington, On. Canada
Registered:
January 2004
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Wed, 21 January 2004 02:10
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Ohhhhhh, this is getting bigger than Ben Hur.
I think I'll stick with what I got and do a custom coil over when the time comes. Not that hard really.
Cheers
Michael B
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 29 January 2004 04:41
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Well guys, as I was getting closer to doing up the suspension with the brake upgrade in the final throes, and the shortage of KYB's having been noted, I set about getting some price for alternatives.
Konis :
I can get a Sport (Yellow) front and Red (internally adjustable) rears for about $760 for the 4.
Or, Red Konis at all four corners for about $700.
Or, I can get Sport Front & Rears (Commodore part numbers (8641-1066 & 8041-1094) for about $890 for the 4
Bilsteins :
Front (P30-0176) and Rears (B461406) for $940 for all 4.
Shite. I thought that the Crumpledore parts would be cheaper, but due to the age, they are starting to get manufactured in smaller batches and hence the larger price.
Anyone got anyother results from their investigations ?
If not, it looks like $760 option Koni's are the go.
Ooroooo
Michael B
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 29 January 2004 04:57
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There is always the option of getting from the States, the dollar is pretty good and freight can be cheap if you are willing to send USPS Ground Service:
http://935motorsports.com/catalog/index.php?cPath= 79_15_22
The Tokico ones are supposed to be better than the KYB's anyway.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 29 January 2004 09:02
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Hang on guys...
All this means is that, if the commodore srut is a direct swap for the Ma6x one, you could:
* buy some commodore struts
* then be able to convert them to coilovers with a coilover kit
* then have access to a range of cheap generic coilover springs to have any rate & height you want
...correct? Or am I missing something? If so, the only advantage I see in this is if commodore coilover kits are a lot cheaper/more easy to come buy than Ma6x ones.
Also:
* would commodore strut inserts then fit an MA6x with commodore struts? (would the heights fully extended and compressed etc be right
* would commodore strut inserts fit a stock Ma6x?
Either would open up a lot of alternate strut inserts to use, but
the damping & rebound rates etc etc etc of the strut inserts will be set up to suit a comodore and not a Ma6x - you'd have to be picky or find out more information. Just something to think about.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 29 January 2004 09:40
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These are the problems we face, one person on these forums "Darryl" and on the cs.com forums has done it, and he told us about it, but we haven't been able to get in contact with him since
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 12 February 2004 03:16
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| Quote: |
Peewee,
VN commodore hubs fit straight onto the MX73 cressida stubs, they have identical wheel bearings too. Me and a mate tried it out the other day- rotor and all- we whacked a 17inch commodore wheel on too (I am converting to dunnydore 5 stud pattern, getting spacers made for rear).
With the caliper dummy-mounted on the rotor, it looked VERY tough. 2 inches lowered, and 235mm tyres works. Seemed to anyway. My rotors are DBA slotted versions of the 330mmm ones from the vn hsv sv5000. The calipers are sumitomo 4 potters from an r33 skyline gts-t. Caliper mounts are being made (for ridiculously cheap) by someone I know who has the gear needed. Greenstuff pads are in line, and 1 inch bore mx83 master cylinder fits the bill quite nicely.
One can never have enough stopping power.
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Need anything else?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 12 February 2004 03:25
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The fact that the Crumpldore strut inserts (VN - VP) that are very close in length to be bloody cheaper.
There is virtually no price difference between 'Supra' shock and 'Crumpledore' shocks (front and rear). Best I can do is about the $850 mark for Koni Yellow F&R and Bilsteins end up at $980.
So much for cheap commodore stuff.
Anyone with any idea of the differences of the MX73 front hub and the MA61 ?
I'm sticking with the Crown (MS65 front and MS123 rears) version as I already have them and the mags (the Commodore offset mags will not work on MA61 struts as the std offset is +48mm, whereas with +25 16 x 8" mags, the strut clearance is about 10mm or less)
Cheers
Michael B
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 12 February 2004 05:45
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Michael,
I have just purchased a set of Tokico HP's from the states. US$290 inc shipping.
Makes it a cheaper alternative to the KONIS.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 12 February 2004 05:46
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How about customs taxes with those?
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 12 February 2004 05:48
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oh fark...
Its only on goods over AU$400 isnt it?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 12 February 2004 05:53
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According to the customs site its goods under $1000 via post or $250 if by freight.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 12 February 2004 06:07
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But it doesn't include freight cost into the amount.
So my shocks cost me $216 based on current exchange rate.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 front coilover suspension possibility with.....COMMODORE parts!
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Thu, 12 February 2004 20:55
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OK, it will be interesting to see what they are like when you get them in.
Whom did you buy from ?
And BTW, USD$290 is not AUS$216, it is more like AUS$375 (based on 0.77 cents), but it is still cheaper than Konis for sure.
ut then again, Koni Yellows are adjustable !!
Let us know if you get slugged with any duties, as I may then follow suit
Cheers
Michael B
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