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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2003
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Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 02:51
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Wondering if anyone has installed a Davies Craig EWP (and controller)? Was there any real benefit notcied? Power/effeciency/cooling?
Whats everyone's opinion on these? They sound pretty damn good, but i haven't actually seen much proof.
Cheers
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 02:57
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I have a friend who runs one, but it was purchased as a necessity and not for the supposed gains etc.
Not having the crank drive the water pump has got to give a slight power increase.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 02:58
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ive 'heard' bad things about these not liking high temperatures - ie on the exhaust side of the engine bay etc - and resulting in failure after a short period of use.
i dont have any experience myself though
cheers
ed
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 03:02
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I had one. If your cooling system is good (reconditioned/new radiator, good pipes, good flush) I think they'd be good. On my 1UZ I don't think they were enough.
I never got the controller to work (you want it?)
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 03:09
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My mate has one i can buy for $130 (with the controller) unused. So its pretty damn cheap.
It would be actually used on an old MGB so not high revving or very high heat/power situation, but any spare power released by this mod would be appreciated.
I think i'll give it a go and post the results if people are interested. The car never really over heats as it is, but does get VERY warm in slow moving traffic so hopefuly it will help that. (e.g. hight heat, slow moving waterpump)
Any opinions are welcome though as i will be removing the impeller on the stock waterpump, so no easy reversal after its done...
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 03:32
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| Andres wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 14:09 |
Any opinions are welcome though as i will be removing the impeller on the stock waterpump, so no easy reversal after its done...
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I had to reverse mine 
On a 1UZ the water pump is in the middle of the V and the cam belt is what spins it, so the WHOLE FRONT OF THE ENGINE has to come off.
Not happy Jan.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 04:40
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Speaking of which Pete, I have to mail yours back to you
I'll try and remember in the next few days.
That aside, I was going to use it until I saw where the 1UZ's water pump was, and then I decided to not bother
My original plan was to remove the water pump completely and put a blank plate there instead, until I saw where it was.
You can supposed get 15 or so RWHP from one of these babies, but as I didnt have the chance to test it, I can't say for sure
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Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 04:59
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The power being released by using a an EWP is a misconception. Yes the crank may not be driving it, but what is driving it is ultimately the alternator which is driven of the crank. the load the EWP places on the alternator/crank to produce a similar flow to a mechanical water pump would be very similar possible more with the losses in power conversion (mechnical(alternator)-electrical - mechanical(water pump)).
Similar arguments are made about thermo fans, and I am yet to see conclusive evidence of a power gain.
The best use of thermo fans is when it can supplement mechanical cooling or when the space available is to tight for a mechanical fan.
Same applies to EWP if the space available fouls with a mechanical water pump. Or if standard water pump cannot be found in good mechanical order at a reasonable price. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.
Changing the water flow rate to a greater flow rate could have negative affect on the colling efficiency of the system. The flow rate will be dependent on heat exchanger design(radiator) and the desired engine inlet and outlet temperature. In other words don't change it because you think a greater flow rate is going to be better.
Hope all this makes sense
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:01
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Yeah i heard about that 15 odd Hp too. Sounds almost too good to be true...
I guess it IS removing a reasonable amount of drag though. I'd probably not blank the hole or else i'd lose the engine fan. (not electric). But remove the impeller instead.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:06
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Roger, your making the assumption that the EWP has equal effeciecy as the old mechanical one. (almsot like saying all turbos are the same)I'd safely assume the turbine design would be more effecient than one from a 70's car (which it is to be fitted to)
Also, doesn't an old alternaotr work either "on" or "off". e.g. its not a variable speed/voltage? So assuming its being driven for something else in the car electrical, it won't be draingin anymore power from the crankshaft than before... Or am i completely wrong there??!?! haha
cheers
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:12
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| roger wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 12:59 |
The power being released by using a an EWP is a misconception. Yes the crank may not be driving it, but what is driving it is ultimately the alternator which is driven of the crank. the load the EWP places on the alternator/crank to produce a similar flow to a mechanical water pump would be very similar possible more with the losses in power conversion (mechnical(alternator)-electrical - mechanical(water pump)).
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You're joking right?
There is no way that the extra stress put on an alternator by the EWP will sap as much power as a mechanical pump.
The headlights and tailights draw more current than the EWP, and I don't know about you, but I don't feel the difference between driving with my lights on, and driving with them off.
Hell, I barely feel the difference between driving in the day with no lights and no stereo, and driving at night with all lights and stereo cranked.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:14
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| Andres wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 13:01 |
I guess it IS removing a reasonable amount of drag though. I'd probably not blank the hole or else i'd lose the engine fan. (not electric). But remove the impeller instead.
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So, lose the fan, get an electric one.
Admittedly your getting an uber good deal on the EWP + Controller (retail is about $650ish for both), but still, it makes the engine bay cleaner with less shit hanging off it
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Location:
ACT
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:40
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| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 08:12 |
You're joking right?
There is no way that the extra stress put on an alternator by the EWP will sap as much power as a mechanical pump.
The headlights and tailights draw more current than the EWP, and I don't know about you, but I don't feel the difference between driving with my lights on, and driving with them off.
Hell, I barely feel the difference between driving in the day with no lights and no stereo, and driving at night with all lights and stereo cranked.
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Umm I have to pull this up. This is so far wrong its not funny. The laws of thermodynamics state that its impossible to transfer 100% of energy, some is always lost.
To turn the pumps impeller requires the same amount of energy regardless of its source. In the case of the mechanical pump its takes its energy directly from the engine.
In the case of the EWP the energy has to go from mechanical, back to electrical. The electric pump is powered by the alternator, the alternator gets its power from the mechanics of the car. This is several more conversions of energy, all of which result in lost energy, the EWP uses more energy from the engine than the standard water pump. Reviews stating this fact and finding the pump useless have been removed from magazines because DC threatened legal action.
The only use is if you were cruising along and didn't require the full power of the pump to give adequate cooling. This would mean the pump is not working as hard and might be using slightly less energy. The amount of power we are talking about is very small and wouldn't be noticed on any engine bigger than a Briggs & stratton.
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Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:47
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| Andres wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 16:06 |
Roger, your making the assumption that the EWP has equal effeciecy as the old mechanical one.
cheers
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Point taken, I have made that assumption the effeciency of the EWP would probably be better hence for the same flow rate there may be a minimal gain not enough for me to spend $130 but I am a tight ass  .
CrUZsida,
you state
"The headlights and tailights draw more current than the EWP, and I don't know about you, but I don't feel the difference between driving with my lights on, and driving with them off.
Hell, I barely feel the difference between driving in the day with no lights and no stereo, and driving at night with all lights and stereo cranked."
and my point is changing to a EWP you will fell no difference in driving between mechanical and electrical.
Show me some dyno figures to convince me of the mythical gains
also take a look here
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0 569
[Updated on: Tue, 10 February 2004 05:53]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:50
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But isn't cruzsida saying that there will be no FURTHER resisatnce fromt he alternator... BUT there will be a reduction in resiastance from having no mechanical water pump what-so-ever.
I'm just bringing this up for debates sake. All would be settled just by installking one! And for $130, and better cooling, I think i can't turn down the offer... And the possibility of 15hp... mmmm.... Don't get much cheaper power than that!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:53
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| Andres wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 13:50 |
I'm just bringing this up for debates sake. All would be settled just by installking one! And for $130, and better cooling, I think i can't turn down the offer... And the possibility of 15hp... mmmm.... Don't get much cheaper power than that!
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Dont expect better cooling, unless you current water pump is stuffed
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:53
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2 things to add:
- alternators arent 'on or off'. the resistance is proportional to the current draw.
- thermos release a HUGE amount of power from the engine. in my case, around 20rwhp (though that was with a malfunctioning cluytch fan). theyre are not on all the time (usually when stationary in hot traffic) and thus dont draw current (and impart load back through the alternator) when driving normally.
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Registered:
June 2002
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 05:59
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I would assume better cooling in slow moving situations where the engine isn't at high enough rpm to move the mechanical pump very much... e.g. in bad traffic sit the with the car on, producing heat, but with little flor over the radiator (although a thermo fan can help) and low water pump pressure...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 06:02
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| Andres wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 13:59 |
I would assume better cooling in slow moving situations where the engine isn't at high enough rpm to move the mechanical pump very much... e.g. in bad traffic sit the with the car on, producing heat, but with little flor over the radiator (although a thermo fan can help) and low water pump pressure...
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But under those conditions the motor isnt producing a huge amount of heat, so it doesnt need uber cooling
And yes, a thermo works perfectly there
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 06:06
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| roger wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 16:56 |
- Ed good point on the thermos but I fail to see how a mechnical fan can drain 20rwhp or approximately 6 victa mowers on full noise to drive the mechnical fan even if the clutch was locked.
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well it did
believe me or not. it is a completely different engine without the clutch fan.
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Location:
ACT
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 06:07
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Andres,
No you won't get better cooling under any situation. The mechanical pump takes very little energy to run.
No car engine would gain 15HP removing the mechanical pump. Maybe a turbocharged 40litre diesel boat engine. But no car engine will.
Look at the artical Roger linked too.
Do you really think a company selling a product that really worked and was based on real world physics would result to legal action against a review that was negative????They would've saved there money and posted a scientific rebuttle.
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Location:
ACT
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 06:11
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Yes clutch fans can make a difference.But this is a completely different situation to the water pump.
Although I should point out that removing a clutch fan will not change your peak HP but it will give that extra 10hp in the midrange when the clutch fan would've been on. Its a common mod on E series Falcs that had the clutch fan to replace it with thermo's. But once again this is not an analogy for the water pump sitaution, they are completely separate forms of operation.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 06:12
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The car i would be installing into has a thermo fan, but MAYBE due to a crappy OLD water pump it gets very warm in heavy traffic. Its also black which wouldn't help on hot days.
A link that DOES support the power theory, but I'm not saying its the be-all-and-end-all...
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/08/electri cwaterpump/index.shtml
(and given, it is taken from the davies craig website, but it was an independant tester)
And to the theory of thermodynamics...A belt driven shaft will have more friction than a magnetically driven one (elctric motor) due to components of the force from the belt tenion pulling it to one side. So it is physically possible to gain power (or technically minimise losses)
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 10:14
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bugger, can someone email me my first reply  stoopid dial up 
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 10:19
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I think the idea behind the EWP is not that the power will increase but the fact that you can control the flow rather than have it directly linked to engine revs.
This allows faster warm up, and also saps less power when you're not needing it (ie: cruising on the freeway).
Similar in principle to thermo fans that only switch on when needed.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 10:24
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Lemme get this straight...
when someone says "thermofan" they mean the electric fan usually bolted right up against the radiator
when someone says "engine fan" (or something) they mean the one running straight off the crank on the front of the engine.
AND
Does the "thermofan" usually replace the "engine fan"? I thought the "enigne fan" was to directly cool the bloxk, whereas the "thermofan" was to improve the radiators effeciency (which i guess cools the entire engine too)
Stuupid question, I know, but I have both running on my car currently! Couls I remove the old one and get a few hp just like "oldcorrollas"???
(sorry, but off topic)
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 11:16
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That don't seem right. Are you sure that one fan isn't the radiator fan belt driven. And the other thermo fan is for the Airconditioning? <- this is a possible scenario right?
And the water running from the radiator is there to cool the engine, NOT the fan blowing air onto it - I'm sure the effect of the fan blowing air onto the block is very minimal, as often the atmospheric air is quite warm and the contact time would actually heat the air flowing past the block.
Hence the thermo fan actually stops working at high temps.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 14:53
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| KDog wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 16:40 |
Umm I have to pull this up. This is so far wrong its not funny. The laws of thermodynamics state that its impossible to transfer 100% of energy, some is always lost.
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I can't be bothered reading the whole thread, but KDog, while you are right, the reasoning is:
* with a mechanical fan, even a clutched one, it's spinning all the time - whether your engine is cold or not, and whether you are idling at the lights or cruising.
* sure an e-fan will use more energy overall if it were running the whole time. But the whole idea with an e-fan is that it only runs when it needs to. Most only come on hard when sitting at the lights; the rest of the time it's a 'free' hp boost, however small, from the engine not having to spin the drag of the fan while driving around.
Having said that, another consideration is that, at high speeds, e-fans tend to (I have heard) actually impede cooling because of the design of the fan blades (something to do with the pitch/size) compared to a stock mechanical one.
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Location:
ACT
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 21:28
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If you are going to contribute usefull information to this thread then try reading the enitre thread.
There are two comnpletely different issues being raised in this thread. They cannot be compared with each other.
A lot of clutch fans employ a viscous coupling. This means that at idle they are not using any power, whist they do spin it is very easy to stop. You can start the engine and hold the fan to stop it from spinning, as you rev the engine the fan will become harder to hold.
Most thermo fans are temperature controlled. This is the reason that people with EA- ED series falcs put them on from the EL - EF falc. They only switch on when a temperature limit is exceeded. This means if your going 80KM/hr or above it is likely that your thermo fans won't be on at all because the cooling provided by the air moving through the radiator is sufficient to keep it cool. This does give a power saving because you are not powering a fan needlessly. This is one reason to use a thermo fan, another is space they are usually slimmer and take up less room than a clutch fan. Note there are other designs for fans such as hydralic control which can also be employed to power a fan.
Andres, the alt is driven by a belt so it adds the losses that would be taken away from not driving the water pump. Plus alts aren't 100% efficient and do have a lot of slippage at high power.
Also there is no such thing as an indepentant test. I do research for a living and there is no such thing. We all get our funds from somewhere and its a very competitive world.
Also a a side note - standard brand new water pumps are not very well made. They usually have quite large gaps between the impeller blades and the housing which lowers flow and efficiency. If you have a high power engine then having a new housing made which fits the impellers better will substantially increase your water flow. I have done this for friends cars but I don't know if it would be commercially viable to do given the work involved. Also a lot of cars have bad water pumps. I had a datsun once which had no blades on the impellor but the engine still didn't overheat. They are an area which recieve no maintenace or regular checks.
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Location:
Redbank Plains,near Ipswi...
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 21:47
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I have fitted several. i have 2 of them on current race cars. they are sensitive to ambient temp, so dont mount them anywhere near the exhaust, else the internal seal gets dmaged. They are poor "suckers", so mount them low, and ideally lower than the base of the radiator. you have to experiment with restrictor valves unless you use their variable speed controller. They have heaps of capacity and only need to run at low speed on most cars. becasue they are internally quite efficient, and they consume relative little power over a given duty cycle, they are a nett power saving . The mech pump on the other hand runs in direct proportion to engine revs., hence power drain (off the engine) increases in relation to revs (its not direct proportion, more like squared).
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 22:15
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Thanks everyone for the help (and healthy debate! haha) I think i will give it a try, and actually remove the entire waterpump assembly (with fan). Mount another thermofan to the radiator and attempt to find a belt that goes just from crankshaft to alternator. (Im not fussed if it involves soome bracket fabrication). I DO expect in theory it will free up SOME power, but I will see if its even noticable.
Cheers again...
PS I have another idea, which i will post as a seperate thread for minimising power loss...
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Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 10 February 2004 22:23
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| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 17:02 |
| Andres wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 13:59 |
I would assume better cooling in slow moving situations where the engine isn't at high enough rpm to move the mechanical pump very much... e.g. in bad traffic sit the with the car on, producing heat, but with little flor over the radiator (although a thermo fan can help) and low water pump pressure...
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But under those conditions the motor isnt producing a huge amount of heat, so it doesnt need uber cooling
And yes, a thermo works perfectly there
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Unless you are having a good time through the twisties and catch up to a cattle truck and get stuck following it at 15km/h.
Which is the prob. my 1JZ seems to suffer from.
Will a EWP increase the cooling at low engine speeds if the flow is higher than what the engine pump would have been??
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Wed, 11 February 2004 01:58
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This is all pretty simple, really 
The EWP 'efficiency' gains ARE possible, due to several facts:
It's not going hard all the time
It can spin at a much more constant speed, within its efficiency range. A water pump is only efficient around a certain speed range, much like a turbo, a fan, anything like that.
However, there ARE always going to be (quite notable) losses going from the crank=>electricity=>pump. If someone can prove otherwise, please show me, as you've just invented perpetual motion
The trouble seems to be that the Davies, Craig pump seems to be a pretty nasty design. Cheap plastic, with what appears to be very little thought put into impeller design, etc. I looked into getting one, then decided to avoid it. The idea is good, the execution is poor...
On the topic of electric fans... They have advantages in that they don't run flat out when you're cruising at 160km/h, saving resultant noise and power. However, electric fans aren't ALL good - when they're on, the efficiency is less, plus even the biggest electric fan can't pull anything like the amount of air a decent engine fan can. A clutch fan does save a lot of the power sapping tendencies anyway, the only disadvantage is that they don't shift much air when you're sitting in traffic. I think Davies, Craig still advertise the horsepower gains of fitting electric fans to an LX Torana 308, don't they? Hardly the pinnacle of cooling system design is it! Something like 19hp at the wheels difference - on an engine with a solid steel 'finger chopper' fan with -duh- no clutch...
That's my thoughts on it all for the moment anyway, thanks everyone for listening 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Wed, 11 February 2004 13:01
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*nods* the davies craig EWP is aussie a bit like an AMI built toyota compared to a jap built toyota
Good Idea/Design... shit build
if thay had made it from a decent alloy would of been nice rather then plastic "Detailed for illustraion purposes only" to look like alloy in there adverts 
Allan
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Wed, 11 February 2004 13:06
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alloy EWP? used by many race teams around the world?
http://www.meziere.com/
they must be shit and not work and not worth the effort 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Wed, 11 February 2004 14:08
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i recommend that everyone commenting on this thread download the Meziere catalog and read the first part about desinging a cooling system. then drool at all the shiny alloy parts.
http://www.meziere.com/adobe/catalog.pdf
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Location:
Melbourne Vic
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Mon, 18 October 2004 12:37
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I have a 91 cressida with 7M, I have replaced the engine fan, with a davies craig, 14" thermo fan, its been on there over a year, i have NEVER had the can come on, driving at over 50Km/h, only when in start stop traffic, or crawling along at 10~20km/h. The engine revs alot free'er even with the sludgebox behind it, it runs at around 50~70% duty cycle when the car is idling on a hot day (35+ deg C), so in my book thats an improvement. But on the topic of power gains, i have no measured power gain, but the car feels alot more responsive, and at high revs, is ALOT smoother.
just my $0.02
and on the top of thermo fans, i was doing some trawling of teh Toyota Parts Catalogue, and it appears cars with thermo fans stock, run a 82~95deg thermostat, with a 83-88deg thermo switch, where as the cars with an engine fan setup run an 88~100 deg thermostat, anyone have any ideas on this?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Mon, 18 October 2004 14:26
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| cseufert wrote on Mon, 18 October 2004 20:37 |
and on the top of thermo fans, i was doing some trawling of teh Toyota Parts Catalogue, and it appears cars with thermo fans stock, run a 82~95deg thermostat, with a 83-88deg thermo switch, where as the cars with an engine fan setup run an 88~100 deg thermostat, anyone have any ideas on this?
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1uz's all have engine fans (afaik), and they all run 82 deg C thermostats.
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Location:
Canberra, ACT
Registered:
September 2002
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 19 October 2004 03:03
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Hey andres, ill buy the EWP if you dont want to 
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Davies Craig EWP
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Tue, 19 October 2004 04:00
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They are poor "suckers", so mount them low, and ideally lower than the base of the radiator
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haha - you just brought out the Colin Chapman voice in my head...must manage weight to the last gram!!!
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