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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Sun, 08 February 2004 04:42
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Hi
I have been trying to decide with a purchase between a 1991 Toyota Celica GT4 ST185 2litre turbo (huge stock turbo) VS a 1993 Mitsubishi Lancer GSR 1.8litre Turbo (tiny stock turbo).
Over the past 2 weeks I have driven 5 GT4s ranging from ones which are complete stock to ones with Computer management, water intercooled, higher boost.
Anyway - I am sooooo disappointed with performance. I found all the GT4s to be slow and laggy. With such a huge stock turbo and a 2litre block - why are they such a poor performer.
I ended up buying a GSR purely because it out did the GT4 in acceleration, handling and overall.
Can someone find me a GT4 - a road registered model which does quarters in 13's or 14's and that is faster than a stock GSR. I could not find one!
This is not a slag on GT4's because I wanted one badly, but could not rationalise the purchase against the GSR.
Please people - tell me why!
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Sun, 08 February 2004 08:16
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Dunno what Gt4's you were driving - Mines able to match it with lower spec evo's and WRX's without much fuss - pre the head gasket going ..
they are heavier - thats about their only disadvantage - though with boost and engine management - there should have been more so a more positive result.
Stock handling on a Gt4 leaves a bit to be desired - you need to work over the swaybar and diff mounts to stiffen up the back end - this makes it handle 100% better + have much better feel and stability. I have a whiteline " works " kit in mine and its awesome to drive in - just ask the few who have gone for a little burn in it with me.
The stock exhaust is also HIGHLY restrictive - and heavy as all hell
Im sure necros put his Group A Gt4 when he had it down the quarter in a sub 14 second run if i remember rightly ..
And that was with a stock motor as far as i know with exhaust mods
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Sun, 08 February 2004 08:51
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The weight of a GT4 seems to kill performance a bit. The Lancer is lighter and cheaper to modify. I am sure will the right mods an internally stock GT4 could run sub 14's. Hell even my SOHC 8V Cordia runs 13's.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Sun, 08 February 2004 09:33
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If you get the chance/$, try out an ST205 instead. I've been in a couple of different GT4s (185, 185 group A and 205) and the 205 is the only one that I'd look into personally. The earlier ones do seem very sluggish, sloppy and just, well, boring! The 205 uses a lower final drive, better matched turbo, better heads, and thousands of other improvements, which fix up that nasty hole in the performance, plus they have the strength to put up with a lot more aftermarket fiddling. Unfortunately, when the 205 was released, it was around the same time as the WRX first appearing in Australia, and at around double the price, you can imagine which become a hit and which car most of Australia have never heard of...
Bang for buck the lancer is a top piece of gear, just remember they are a bit fragile in a few areas!
That's my thoughts on the issue anyways 
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Sun, 08 February 2004 09:41
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Shin - it will be interesting to see what mine goes like with the 205 gearbox ..
though im umming and ahhing about the final drive ratio..
heard it kills the fuel consumption
But nods to 205 - that cars a goodamn supercar - totally underrated !!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
south of the big smoke
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Sun, 08 February 2004 10:16
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i have driven, and had a bit of experience with a few 185 GT4's, i found them to be rather ordinary, however i thought there handling was pretty awesome in stock form,
Ps GT4 drivers plz dont take offence to this, as dont mean to be harsh, i also think its to the fact that they need to attend weight watchers
does anyone know what the rally spec version weighed compared to the street spec?
pps gee-120s 2o5 is/was a deferent story and that was with a bung engine!
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Sun, 08 February 2004 10:23
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Stu - run with the lower ratio, I reckon, set up a lean cruise function to take care of the consumption, should it prove to be an issue. Just one more excuse to fit a Motec, really
Besides, I'll be ready to take you on with Whitey, anytime! 
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 07:26
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I fear whitey 
it is a beast of beasts
As per ECU - mines getting an aftermarket setup asap - But its on hold thanks to my current headgasket expiring ..
Fixing that first , then ECU.
The stock st185 weighs in at around the 1460 mark. I totally agree they are heavy bastards ..
I accepted this knowing i was going the Group A bodypanel path for better cooling and " looks " + i find the st185 to be a heap sexier looking than a GSR or a WRX
Remember too the block in the GT4 is cast with an alloy head so its a bit nose heavy, and its also blessed with a HUGE fuel tank for a 4 cylinder car - but its drivetrain is VERY VERY strong from the factory. Gearboxes and diffs are Very hard to break , and the engine has little flaws .
From what i hear - only the sr20det is a sturdier 4 cyl than the 3sgte.
Its bodykit is Heaps more subtle, and it doesnt attract as much attention to the " oh he has a 4wd turbo - lets take him on " wanker crowd.
Group A St185's - 1390 kg as far as in know
Group A st205's like gary's are around the 1300 ish mark as well but i believe still a shade heavier than a WRX or EVO
Rally ones - Minus about another 150 KG easy after all the interior is stripped out + all unnnecessary weight is removed
I have a feeling mines sitting this side of 1400 Atm ..
Anyone know of a public weigh bridge near colac i can get a figure at ?
If you buy one you really do need to spend a bit of money here and there to remove the factory fitted flaws - like the soft rear suspension setup , the intake system ( inadequite cold air feed IMHO) , the exhaust( WTF - cast cats, tiny dump pipes then MORE cats!) , and the intercooling ( air to air in top mount form isnt all that friendly). Add to this a Ecu that can map to higher PSI - say 18ish like the Group A item, The turbo can take it, in steel not ceramic blessed form.
Once these are " cured " or improved - the Gt4 Really can move , and will handle like a cat on carpet, with a firecracker up its arse.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 08:03
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i dunno if i have mentioned this before,
and id hate to turn this into a WRX vs GT4 thread... but the WRX i believe shits all over GT4's.
ive got a good mate who bought a WRX recently, its a grey import from NZ and is the first model STI ever made, 1993 or something i think.
annnnnnnnyways, he purchased it in sydney and raced an ST205 and blew the door1s clean off it. my mates car is standard except for an exhaust and bov, he paid 16.5k for his WRX, plus its a 4 door, and im a pretty tall guy (6'3) and ive got plenty of head room in the WRX, and its an all out sports sedan... without things like powerwindows and leather interior.
dont get me wrong. i like GT4s and they can be made to haul ass but outta the box i belive they are not that that impressive. having said this i have driven a couple of ST185s including a group a. and still reckon the WRX is the go. for braking, handling, acceleration and comfort.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 09:25
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My GT4 ran a 15.08 at Willowbank.
Only mods were a dump pipe and high flow cat (rest of exhaust standard). Oh, and a JDM ECU (nothing fantastic, just a bit more timing).
That is on par with most stock WRXs.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 10:00
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| Classique71 wrote on Mon, 09 February 2004 15:26 |
From what i hear - only the sr20det is a sturdier 4 cyl than the 3sgte.
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Are you sure? I've only read the opposite 
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 10:06
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I was talking about it to someone - cant remeber the name though - minds fried atm..
the comparisons VERY close in strength as far as i know ..
Dunno where the Suby boxer + the Evo lancer 2 litres rate in this scale .. id expect they would be comparable in strength, seeing all share a similar platform for performnance benchmark
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 10:12
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Most of the articles I've read, even in the SR20 loving HPI and Zoom magazines have rated the 3SGTE a better engine persay. Stronger block, internals around the same but a better head as well.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 10:19
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id have to agree re the block being strong ..
never heard of one throwing a piston , via cracked rod or thru piston wall
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 11:06
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| spectral wrote on Mon, 09 February 2004 20:25 |
My GT4 ran a 15.08 at Willowbank.
Only mods were a dump pipe and high flow cat (rest of exhaust standard). Oh, and a JDM ECU (nothing fantastic, just a bit more timing).
That is on par with most stock WRXs.
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Well - Im not trying to bag out your ride dude - but my gsr which is completely stock except for a BOV and an pod air filter, running 10psi does a quarter pass in 14.51 - and that is with a slipping clutch and an extra person in the car holding the G-tech
What is the go! I love the GT4's but im losing faith in them quickly - if someone knows of someone in Canberra with a GT4 worth its speed in weight - please let me know - i need to be blown away.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 11:11
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Ask JustenGT4 to come out and play
I wonder if he would bring his white one out for a romp
As a point of interest - i have had a little play with a GSR , that had been lightly modded..
GSR was quicker on the launch but the Gt4 caught it in the end with little fuss. I had only mild mods on the car then - just a cat back exhaust and a boost controller.
Both thumbs up from both drivers
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 12:51
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there is a blue 185 in canberra with a bif front mount, vielside (sp) kit, and all that jazz.
spoke to him at a servo once and he had the motor rebuilt and strengthened to 300 kw,
quite a sturdy number when you think about it. without a doubt the 3sgte has PLENTY of potential, it goes without saying tho that he had to upgrade all the driveline etc after something like that tho....
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 13:04
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well, another thought for the fire...
who else but toyota provides a motor as good as the 3sgte in a box that can be purchased for $8k? How much are GSR's worth? Put the spare money into mods and you have a pretty sweet ride
I belive even a 165 with mods can go and the 3s is a tough as motor from all the words I have heard and experience I have had.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 13:23
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| RobST162 wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 00:04 |
I belive even a 165 with mods can go and the 3s is a tough as motor from all the words I have heard and experience I have had.
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yes indeed!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Mon, 09 February 2004 22:48
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| YLD-SX wrote on Mon, 09 February 2004 21:06 |
Well - Im not trying to bag out your ride dude - but my gsr which is completely stock except for a BOV and an pod air filter, running 10psi does a quarter pass in 14.51 - and that is with a slipping clutch and an extra person in the car holding the G-tech
What is the go! I love the GT4's but im losing faith in them quickly - if someone knows of someone in Canberra with a GT4 worth its speed in weight - please let me know - i need to be blown away.
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Nah, I know you arn't bagging GT4s etc...
BUUTT... G-Tech? And someone *holding* the G-Tech??? C'mon man, that doesn't count. Take it down the quarter and then the result will be believed.
G-Techs are inaccurate at the best of times, let alone someone just holding the bugger...
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Tue, 10 February 2004 03:11
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The 165 ain't so bad but the later GT4's are porkers. They are porkers because they are bloody strong. How many 10 yr old WRX's do you see getting around... and getting around without a cabin full of rattles .....a very ROUND number i suspect
That said, it's not hard to get a 185 into the 14's and my 185 GrpA does a flat 13 all day with ease. With the latest round of tuning i'll be pissed if it won't pass at 12.5.
Handling is fair for what they are but the later WRX's are better out of the box and why shouldn't they be being a later model. Again, add the tune up bits and chassis wise there's not much difference except the GT4 is stiffer.
As for turbo 4's, the SR20 and WRX boxers can't hold a candle to a 3SGTE (maybe the Cosworth or Fiat offerings and even they aren't as strong). The reason the SR20 stacks up is because the aftermarket support for bolts on's is better in Oz. Go to japan or source your race parts yourself locally and you'll see reliable numbers from a 3SGTE that a SR20 can't compete with.
This ain't a pissing comp though, throw enough dollars at anything and you can have a fast car. It's horses for courses and i'm happy to have to do a bit more work to my GT4 to get the performance if for no other reason than it's not as common as dirt.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Tue, 10 February 2004 07:40
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here here justen ..
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Tue, 10 February 2004 09:17
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haha rob, had to bring up the 165 
i'll take the one in my avatar... haha
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Tue, 10 February 2004 12:41
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| Classique71 wrote on Mon, 09 February 2004 18:26 |
Group A St185's - 1390 kg as far as in know
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1390 is about the weight of a 205. My Group A st185 came in at a 1496 kg with a half tank of petrol. It now weighs 1316kg after putting it through quite an extreme diet. A GSR will be about that in standard form.
If you are looking for best bag for buck performance than the GSR will over shadow the GT4 but the cost of reliability and strenght comes at the cost of weight as seen in the newer model WRX's. It seems performance is your main goal so pick the GSR or even better go the GTiR. Talk about out of the box performance.
Anhar Khamas
GT4 Group A
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Tue, 10 February 2004 12:55
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| JustenGT4 wrote on Tue, 10 February 2004 14:11 |
chassis wise there's not much difference except the GT4 is stiffer.
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When I drove an ST185, I came away with three thoughts:
1) Gawddamn it's slow!
2) Understeeeeeeer!!
3) Holy cow that fat bitch is stiff!!!
The chassis was awesome! Shame about the rest though.
This was stock BTW.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Tue, 10 February 2004 23:10
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haha rob, had to bring up the 165
i'll take the one in my avatar... haha
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shud up
mate I think I was the one who introduced you to the one in your avatar..
anyway.. I will take this one
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Celica GT4's - whats the story with performance!
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Wed, 11 February 2004 06:18
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I have a feeling that the rally celicas were 1400kg. I think that they imposed a minimum weight to make sure teams dont cut out any of the safety stuff. Also adding a rollcage would make up a bit of the weight that they take out of the car anyway :)
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