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Location:
NSW
Registered:
April 2004
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4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sat, 22 May 2004 04:23
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Judging from power, which engine is best to fit into an AE86?
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sat, 22 May 2004 05:37
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Even though I prefer the 20 valve, for power I would say the 4agze, you can get more power from it. IMO. 
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Location:
Castlemaine Vic
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sat, 22 May 2004 08:23
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Id suggest you use the SEARCH function up the right hand corner, it has been covered that many times!
also try www.twincam16.com
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sat, 22 May 2004 09:53
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4a-gze.
do not believe a single thing toyota quote about the power output of their NA motors.
ACTUAL ENGINE DYNO SPECS:
Blacktop 20V = 108kw
Silvertop 20V = 104kW
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sun, 23 May 2004 01:55
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| THE WITZL wrote on Sat, 22 May 2004 19:53 |
4a-gze.
do not believe a single thing toyota quote about the power output of their NA motors.
ACTUAL ENGINE DYNO SPECS:
Blacktop 20V = 108kw
Silvertop 20V = 104kW
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That's a huge difference from the quoted 120kw.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sun, 23 May 2004 03:09
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ok so witzl, does a 100kw 4age actually make 100kw at the fly?
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Location:
The Eastwood MASSIVE !
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sun, 23 May 2004 06:31
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Well considering the 100kw and the 86kw make close to the same wheel power on dyno's , I would say no.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sun, 23 May 2004 09:20
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what Diz said.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sun, 23 May 2004 10:52
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honestly guys, i don't understand why ppl want to compare 'power' of NA vs SC'd motors..
which one to fit?
well they are totally different in behaviour!!!!
SC = flat torque curve, great from low rpm to maybe?? 6grand? 7grand??
NA, with big cams, poor torque down low, comes on cam and is fun.
both will be responsive to throttle, SC will have more torque, NA will rev more..
go the Powah  
seriously tho, work out what you want from the motor, and design the motor around what you want.
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Sun, 23 May 2004 14:09
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u have to work the gear to keep the 20v revving where it is happy
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 05:23
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most 20v's make around 92kw at the wheels with a ecu and exhaust,
most gze's make 100kw atw with a ecu and put a larger pulley and FMIC and you will make around 110kw atw
the GZE are a more grunty motor but the 20v is smooth power!
Dale
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Location:
wollongong
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 09:37
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| DiZ_ wrote on Sun, 23 May 2004 16:31 |
Well considering the 100kw and the 86kw make close to the same wheel power on dyno's , I would say no.
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Thats total crap. Having had a 86kw, a 100kw and now a 20v in my AE82, i can tell u that the 100kw had heaps more power than the 86kw, and the 20v has heaps more than the 100kw.
U can't rely on dyno figures, cos usually there not accurate, i've seen stock 20v's get over 100kw ATW and stock GZE's struggle to make 90!
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 11:20
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Kewp, I guess it depends on the condition of the engine doesn't it?
Most people on here would be putting in an engine straight from an importer (not rebuilt or anything), so I guess some 20 valve's WOULD make over 100kw atw, but some would make 50kw atw. Same goes for ZE's - some would be making over 100, some way under. As reliabe and effecient as the 4AGE's are, we're really not talking about a level playing field when it comes to imported engines coz you just can't tell what condition they are in.
Anyway, they are both great engine's right? One will have more torque down low, the other will provide more top-end but still be very smooth and linear, both with a similar power output. So I guess the answer to the question is simple - Do you want torque and associated insurance issues etc of the ZE, or an engine with less low down torque, but still enough power to be seriously fun?
That's my 2c, probably wrong as I don't know everything, so don't shoot me!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
western suburbs,sydney
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 11:35
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Depenends what you want? Hi revs from the 20v or low down torque from s/c. Hey how about a s/c 20v!!! 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:10
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a dyno is just a fuckin number.
i agree with whats already been quoted, depends on the 'type' of power you want. i love to rev, so id never go the s/c, but thats my preference
my opinion is that a dyno is not something to judge an engine by. just its "power output" isnt a great way to compare engines
a dyno is a tuning tool, nothing more. theres too much emphasis on dyno figures in aus, its all wank factor in the end anyway.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:29
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| kewp wrote on Mon, 24 May 2004 19:37 |
Thats total crap. Having had a 86kw, a 100kw and now a 20v in my AE82, i can tell u that the 100kw had heaps more power than the 86kw, and the 20v has heaps more than the 100kw.
U can't rely on dyno figures, cos usually there not accurate, i've seen stock 20v's get over 100kw ATW and stock GZE's struggle to make 90!
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So you are telling me that an engine dyno is inaccurate? That i should believe the "Toyota quoted power figures"....
How about the 1/4 mile times....
AE92, blacktop 20V 6 sp - 15.0 (a brissy car)
AE92, blacktop 20V 5sp - 15.5 (was at WSID)
AE92, stock MAP GZE 5spd - 14.8 (Melbourne, A GIRL [ladySX])
AE92, silvertop 20V 5 spd - 16.0 (multiple cars at willobank)
AE71, very tired 100kW 4A-GE = 15.807 (me, WSID)
AE92, 100kW 4age stock = 16.4 (brissy cars)
Kewp - did u also feel teh powah increase when u installed your pod filter on each of these motors?
What is the freakin deal with people saying the 4A-GZE doesn't rev?
The GZE wants to rev MORE than the NA variants - thats comparing my AE71 100kW with an AE82 map GZE with an AE92 silvertop 20V... The GZE just torques its way up to 7.5k without blinking!
And a final note to all for the 100000th time...
CHASSIS DYNO'S ARE A TUNING TOOL, NOT A COMPARISON GUIDE. Especially when comparing power ATW of two different cars on two different dynos, with different tyres, tyre pressures, strapping techniques, ambient temperatures... etc etc, there is NO WAY you can compare the two and call that an accurate (or even remotely related) comparison.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:36
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Torque wins races.
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Location:
western suburbs,sydney
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:43
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The ze revs hard but doesn't have much to offer after around 6000rpm.My ze put out 97.9kw ATW with 2 1/2 exhaust and nevo pulley.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:45
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| serge wrote on Mon, 24 May 2004 22:43 |
The ze revs hard but doesn't have much to offer after around 6000rpm.
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You've already got a car length on the 20v by then anyway 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:49
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| BlackSupra wrote on Mon, 24 May 2004 22:36 |
Torque wins races.
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and POWAH sells cars off the showroom floor.. it's just a peculiar thing that people have become accustomed to...
for some people it's all about the POWAH. not abotu the drivability....
aaaaanyway....
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:50
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| serge wrote on Mon, 24 May 2004 22:43 |
The ze revs hard but doesn't have much to offer after around 6000rpm.
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What gives you that idea?
From my experience the GZE keeps pulling right up and over 7000RPM.
And even if it were true - shifting at ~7000rpm would land you SMACK back into the middle of power band for the next gear.
Unlike the high revving 20v which needs to get up into the ~8200rpm bracket to move at a decent rate, then shifts back below powerband.
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:50
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Yeah well, they're both good engines so stop making me feel like I shoulda gone the ZE and just shut the hell up
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:54
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You should have gone the ZE.
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Location:
western suburbs,sydney
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 12:57
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You dont need to rev the shit out the the ze.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 13:03
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Actually, if you want torque, get a decent gearbox...if you want to win a race, get a powerful engine.
my 2c.
Of course - the torque band may need to be slighter larger or shorter depending on the type of racing.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 13:06
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I love my ZE. Awesome fun.
The Witzil is right. I take mine to 7000rpm and its great. Then smack next gear and your flyin'. The Nevo 175mm gives it awesome punch.
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Location:
wollongong
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 14:02
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GZE's only seem like they rev out hard cos they got short ass gear ratios. I saw one that could do only 85kph in second. A 20v will do 115kph in second. When u change gears in a GZE you put it on the downhill side of the power curve, which means the harder u rev it, the less it's got. When you shift a 20v its still on the uphill of it's curve. ie. the more you rev the harder it goes. Although a 20v can't keep up off the start, as soon as it gets into it's stride it will stay with a GZE
Bye the way the quickest i've ever seen a GZE do 0-100 in a front drive car is 6.5sec. My 20v has done in 7.0 on a g-tech.
Who cars if it's 0.5sec slower, it's f**ing quick for a car from '86
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 14:11
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Handy Toymods hint #1592 : Never ever ever ever quote a g-tech et...unless you want three pages of flaming.
Plus your terminology is shocking...downside of the ***power*** curve? That'd be more than a slight fuck-up in gear ratios, that'd be disastrous.
85kph in second? That's not so bad, the 3S-GE ST162 does 85 in second at 7000rpm. Anything doing 115 in second is probably too long geared for a 1600cc engine.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 16:44
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once u driven s/c theres no goin back to n/a
drives so much better on the roads especially city roads, easy to over take without downshifting, smoother power delivery, feels like a commodore etc... leave it in third and its so fun after 60k/hr all the way to 140.
i dunno y people say ZEs power good up to 6000rpm only. i've had few runs with a levin fwd s/c b4 shifting bout 7krpm and was even all the way til on last run i took it to 7.5krpm in first and second and even my passanger saw a noticeable improvement after every gear i left the car behind further
now this is for a road car, for track use maybe different story
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Location:
Castlemaine Vic
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Mon, 24 May 2004 21:38
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and i dont know why ppl think the AFM gze is so shit  ! my ae82 ran a 14.8 last yr ar calder too, and what was a afm gze! with nevo pulley
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Tue, 25 May 2004 00:59
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| twincam_ke20 wrote on Tue, 25 May 2004 07:38 |
and i dont know why ppl think the AFM gze is so shit ! my ae82 ran a 14.8 last yr ar calder too, and what was a afm gze! with nevo pulley
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Agree'd though we are a little biased
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Location:
Sydney (Campbelltown...!)
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Tue, 25 May 2004 07:43
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i recon it all comes down to wat u want
im only putting in a 20v cause i love high revs, i dont care about pulling massive burnouts or driving up cliffs so torque is not an issue to me.
i recon for a 1600 both the gze and 20v are very powerfull motors
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Tue, 25 May 2004 09:38
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WHy not have a supercharged engine that can rev?
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Tue, 25 May 2004 11:09
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ffs..... Ok, they both rev. One makes more power down low, the other makes it up high, giving it a reputation as a more 'revvy' top end type engine.
If you want torque, buy a ZE, if you don't want forced induction, buy a 20V.
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Wed, 26 May 2004 06:51
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What's AFM?
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Wed, 26 May 2004 06:57
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Air Flow Meter
as opposed to MAP sensor.
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Wed, 26 May 2004 07:24
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| BlackSupra wrote on Wed, 26 May 2004 16:57 |
Air Flow Meter
as opposed to MAP sensor.
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thanks 
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Wed, 26 May 2004 08:13
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most people dont rate the AFM version that well when compared to a MAP variant.
Basically the MAP variant starts off with better power delivery. There is the higher C/R, smallport head, improved bottom end, bigger s/c pulley standard etc etc.
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Location:
NSW
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Wed, 26 May 2004 08:22
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| THE WITZL wrote on Wed, 26 May 2004 18:13 |
most people dont rate the AFM version that well when compared to a MAP variant.
Basically the MAP variant starts off with better power delivery. There is the higher C/R, smallport head, improved bottom end, bigger s/c pulley standard etc etc.
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Thanks for the info.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Glenmore Park, NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Wed, 26 May 2004 10:38
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heya on this topic would it be a fairy usefull mod to s/c the 4age20v or is it more hassle and/or $$$ than its worth?
and befor any1 sez anyting YES i did search.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Wed, 26 May 2004 13:27
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i think when ppl say that the GZE's dont rev, what they really mean is that they dont make their power at high revs.
i personally, love to rev my GE hard. sure it doesnt have as much torque as the gze, but i can make up for it. eg to overtake, i drop it back a gear - torque prob solved!
i dunno, to me, the GZE just doesnt SING!!! hahaha  but then thats just me ok! the rest of u can all fall in love with ur boat pulling GZE's
as for the power issue, later on when ive got bigger cams and a new ecu, ill be pumping 160-170ps and revving to 8k, and that my friends, is the ROAR OF THE NA
muahahah
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4age 20 valve VS 4AGZE
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Wed, 26 May 2004 21:22
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4A's dont sing, they BUZZ.
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