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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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 Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) -- what we are doing now
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Fri, 04 June 2004 05:06
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I know I have posted about this before.
We took it up to a workshop in Castle Hill and they said that the motor was stuffeded.
SO We took it home to have a look.
This is the rattle it has - click to download
1) We took the head off and dropped it off at a head workshop. They had it for a couple of days and said nothing was wrong at all. The springs, seats, buckets, valves, seals were all good. Which sux, because we were hoping the problem was there.
2) We took the sump off and inspected the main bearings and turned it over on the starter. Everything looked and sounded fine.
3) We inspected the cylinder tops and bores for excessive oil or any cracks or anything. Nothing.
4) We ran it with each cylinder "unplugged", that is first, no spark, then no injector, to eliminate again perhaps a sticky valve.
5) We ran it with all the ancillery belts off to eliminate a dodgy water pump/ps pump etc etc
6) Inspected timing (distributor, cam gears, etc etc) - aok
I can't think of anything else to inspect.
So friggn' frustrated
cheers guys
Rob 
[Updated on: Wed, 09 June 2004 08:29]
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Fri, 04 June 2004 05:27
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nice video 
eville frickin sound tho, now wonder you're worried 
fromt he speed and sound of it, it is definitely valve related...
to me it sounds like massive valve clearance...
has it spat out a valve shim? have you broken any of the valve retainer locks?
since it is definitely a solid metal to metal sound, there should be evidence of it somewhere.. i'd pull the head off again and have a look at each valve individually.. check each clearance first.. if thats ok, pull out the buckets/springs and make sure nothings broke.. then manually (without spring) move each valve by hand and check they are all ok...
also, there's nothing hitting or wrong with the cam pulley? that would also give the same cadence sound perhaps...
for my money it's something to do with the cam to valve mechanism... i know the shop said it was all ok, but did they check the clearances?
good luck!!!!
Cya, Stewart
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Fri, 04 June 2004 05:38
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ok well nice noise, from that as best i can tell it might be one of the following...
at first as soon as half was down loaded and i played it, what immediately popped into my head was.. that sounds like a small tinny sounding hole in the exhaust, possibly at the head face or in the primarys where the pressure is greatest...maybe something to check?
then after the rest of the video played i thought.. are the cam to shim clearances correct?? then i re-read that youd had it checked.. so the only other reason i can think that a cam would make that sort of noise is that perhaps the seat where the bucket sits on the valve is damaged or excessively worn.
have you tried listening with a screwdriver to isolate exactly which set of valves is causing the problem?
good luck.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Fri, 04 June 2004 10:20
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I dont think its "cam" related the taping is too fast at idle... check cam angle sensor and other external items, it sounds to exposed to be bottom end
Allan
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Fri, 04 June 2004 12:30
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dudes thanks for the awesome advice
yeah so frustrating.. have taken this car apart SO many times... 
anyway, yeah it totally sounds like an awol valve.
Definitely not exhaust (brand new extractors), and have isolated it (via screwdriver) to somewhere near cylinder's 1 and 2, but this was all BEFORE we sent it off to the head shop.
The head shop reconditioned the head about 2 months ago, so didn't charge for this inspection.
The clearances are great from what I can tell and the buckets are very nice and shiney and smooth
This leave us with faulty valve springs? Which the head shop said were fine.
I am beginning to doubt this.
Is it possible to test with the head off? Perhaps leaving the cams on and giving them a whirl with the head off and an old timing belt?? or is that just a plain stupid idea?
Rob
yeah.. great noise huh..  it has been growing for about 2 weeks now.. hmm yet, no damage ANYWHERE today when it was all apart... so gay.
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Fri, 04 June 2004 15:16
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sounds like a rod to me.
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Location:
Toowoomba
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 00:23
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my old man's ute (22R hilux) was making almost this exact same noise. I checked the clearances and all was good... it turned out to be that the oil filter was too loose and letting air into the crank area. Buggers me how it made that noise, but tightened it up and all when quiet.
Oil loss wasn't really a problem, still halfway between F and L. But I think another couple of kms and it would have purged the oil bigtime.
Anyway, its probably not the same problem, but the noise is remarkably similar, and will take 10 seconds to check.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 01:26
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What oil are you running in it??? not some sort of 5W30 or 0W oil are you?
My 3T sounded like that when I whacked some 5W in it!
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 01:31
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No dude, Shell Helix Plus (15-50 full synthetic) da besht
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 05:15
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ok we are taking the motor back apart.. again..
this time going to have a look at the piston for a loose/worn pin and check (again) the main bearings
my money is on a worn pin
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 06:42
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valve guide
did they 'knurl' em?
that duzn't work from wut i hear and know
or piston hitting head, etc.
put a piece of paper with sum carbon paper next to it in the plug hole and bring the piston up to tdc to see if it leaves an impression on the paper...
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Location:
On your mum!
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 07:06
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toynado - the piston won't hit the head until the engine speed is high enough to allow the momentum of the piston to carry it up far enough to make contact (if we are talking about a spun main bearing).
Rob - did you grab the big-ends and give them a yank to feel if there was any excessive clearance?
There is no reason why the bore may not still be perfect with anything BUT a frigged piston.
When a gudgeon is loose - they are generally only a little bit noisy when cold, and then the noise goes away as the engine warms up.
If a piston had touched the head - it would have been evident with the head off.
Maybe the crank is touching the crank sraper/windage tray?
I would like to see this one in the fleash (this freaking comp has no sound card 
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 07:57
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yeah, definitely no piston contact with head that much is obvious
noise sounds very much up the top, thanks to my trusty extra long screwdriver
NO, I did not give the big ends a yank, what an idiot I am for not doing it too!
the noise is terrible from start and doesn't get worse or better with time.
I doubt that the crank is touching the windage tray, 'cause the noise really really isn't coming from there. If it was that or a spun bearing you would REALLY hear that I imagine down the bottom and when the motors on, the big ends just sound nice.. "wrrrrrrrrr" (screwdriver test again)
next step, take everything off again, and give the big ends a good ol yank.. heck, we'll just take 'em out as I can't seem to fault the head and I am running out of ideas
thanks Yellow and toy
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 08:42
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rob with this much in and out of the engine
you may as well just get a new reco'd one
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 09:36
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hmm what about the cam wheels?? double checked theyre tight and the bolts arent stripped?? i know.. were all clutching at straws without seeing/hearing it for ourselves
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sat, 05 June 2004 18:33
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how come there is no oil being thrown around in there?
makes me wonder how the top end is getting enuf oil...
it's so LOUD,
u can't isolate it to at least a cylinder ?
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sun, 06 June 2004 07:09
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haha problem is resolved, wait for the video!
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Location:
On your mum!
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sun, 06 June 2004 07:21
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Can't wait.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sun, 06 June 2004 09:41
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awaiting video! Was it something minor? I was shocked at that video 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sunshine Coast
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sun, 06 June 2004 12:27
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thats what my engine sounded like when it spun a crank bearing and even tho it was a bottom end noise it still sounded like coming from the top..was really loud fast and shitty like that..but yeah good to hear u got it sorted out 
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Location:
The Eastwood MASSIVE !
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Sun, 06 June 2004 12:40
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| BlackSupra wrote on Sun, 06 June 2004 17:09 |
haha problem is resolved, wait for the video!
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ARGH , what was the problem , I must know!!!
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Mon, 07 June 2004 00:55
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| Quote: |
awaiting video! Was it something minor? I was shocked at that video
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lol and shocked you will be. sicksx.. 100 points! and everyone else, 100 points for your awesome help. Just so you know.. motor is coming out today
here resteth the final verdict on the corolla
watch before you read, if you can watch
I tried to get the vid down smaller, sorry about the size, and my dumb vocals
Anyway, there was NO bearing AT ALL on piston #1. The other bearings were *ok* for the most part, but #1s was non-existent! I guess like Glen pointed out, most likely cause of all that silt in the sump
Still strange to me that with the screwdriver test it didn't pick up the lack of (hehe) a bearing when listening to it, and it SO sounded like it was in the head. strannnge.
so the crank is like sandpaper and the con rod ain't much better.
Now we need to find a) a machine shop and b) most likely, whether a 4afe bottom end will match or if it's time for a new engine! Unfortunately this is the most exxy route
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Mon, 07 June 2004 01:09
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Nice high pitch voice
Im assuming thats a 4AGE? if so a 4AF is not an interchangeable crank with the 4AGE one. Time for a second hand bottom end. or if the cranks not too badly scored you could try
Dominator Engine reconditioning, Guernsey St Guildford, he can even get the new bearings etc for you.. at a cheaper price than you can find them for usually.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Mon, 07 June 2004 01:13
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yeah I have a cold so my voice is stuffed and the tiny tinny mic doesn't help
ok, so we are stuck with a 100kw bottom end. hrm well thanks HEAPS for the Dominator call, I will phone them now, thats awesome
Rob
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movie) any ideas? pleeeeze help I am desparate
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Mon, 07 June 2004 01:17
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No wobble.... Loottttsss of wobble!!!
Good to see you found the problem.
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Mon, 07 June 2004 13:43
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really, the head & piston top didn't look like they'ed been beaten together??????? no noticeable contact at all?
and really, that sound should have been very obvious to all.
how long a listen did it take for the Castle Hill workshop to say it was stuffed?
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Mon, 07 June 2004 14:45
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hmmm thats what my 4AGZE sounds like at the moment  but i caught it early so its much quieter than that i havent pulled it apart yet to survey the damage but im dreading to see it.
anyone know how long u have after that noise appears before the bearings dissapear completeley? i limped about 2K's to a friends house after and its very faint on idle still.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Mon, 07 June 2004 14:58
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| Quote: |
really, the head & piston top didn't look like they'ed been beaten together??????? no noticeable contact a
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no contact whatsoever dude head is perfect.. thankfully
about maybe a month ago their was a noticeable rattle at high revs.. kinda grew worse, then in the space of a day or so it just lost the plot all together (again, it's my mates car so I wasn't driving it.. but that's the story)
but I would imagine that maybe he wasn't paying enough attention 'cause mechanical problems usually give a bit of warning.. but then when they are stuffed... they are you know it.. hehe
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Mon, 07 June 2004 15:33
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and the cause was?? failed oil pump? blocked oil galleries? oil pressure drop while cornering?
hmm, makes me want to video my "tinkle" sound before it goes snafu
thanks for the vids scaary stuff.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:07
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lol I wish I knew what it was will be inspecting block today
funny that it is JUST #1 piston tho... any ideas on that one??
My mate what you might call, "a spirited" driver, so no suprise that they were worn, though, "gone" was a suprise
My Celica rattles around corners esp under higher revvs.... how does one reduce oil pressure drop around corners? I know that is OT.. but just interested..
I will try and get some pix of the crank
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:15
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| RobST162 wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 09:07 |
My Celica rattles around corners esp under higher revvs.... how does one reduce oil pressure drop around corners?
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Oil pressure drop whilst cornering suggests that the oil pump isn't getting oil from the sump. Cornering may be causing the oil to slosh away from the pick up, no oil to pump (drawing air instead), drop in pressure, BANG.
A number of strategies can be employed to reduce the likelihood of this happening.
- Baffling (with partitions and trap doors)
- larger capacity sump (deeper and with oil pickup being moved further down)
- narrower (side to side) sump, and
- bigger oil drain backs from the head (if you suspect oil is pooling at the top of the motor and is a contributory factor).
Probably the easiest ones to do at home is to make some decent baffles and to add another 2" to the depth of the sump.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:19
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thanks for that gt!
I would have to do some welding for that I have no welder. Could probably get it done at a shop I suppose
grr I need a welder!!!!
btw, thanks for watching the vids and all guys, heaps nice
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Tue, 08 June 2004 01:29
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well....
normal operation for bearings is where they have an oil film between journal and the soft metal.. the two should never come into contact.
the ways they can come into comtact are by losing oil pressure (and losing the oil film that prevents contact), or by over-revving or possibly bad detonation, where the forces on the piston and rod are large enough to physically break thru the oil film and push the bearing onto the journal..
once you have made metal to metal contact, wear is instant... the soft metal is soft to try to maintain the journal integrity if contact is made.
the more wear you get, the larger the clearances are, and a higher volume of oil (possibly at higher pressure) is required to maintain the protective oil film.
in your case, once the bearing was partially rooted, either the oil galleries to No.1 are either blocked (possibly by the worn bearing material itself), or they are too small to provide the amount of oil needed, or your oil pump is not sufficient to provide the flow needed (by fuggered bearing clearances)
[edit... and higher rpm sheds oil faster from bearings, coupled with higher loading, requiring both higher volume and pressure to begin with.. multiplied by excessive bearign clearances]
in my KE15 when i take hard right hand corners, i see the oil presure suddenly drop from 60psi to 20-30psi as air gets picked up by the pump (no baffling at all).. left hand corners are fine.
oil pressure gauges are veeery useful
Cya, Stewart
[Updated on: Tue, 08 June 2004 01:34]
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Tue, 08 June 2004 12:59
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north south mounted smallport 4a-ge's dont seem to have this problem to my knowledge
Yes, oil pressure guages are useful indeed
P.S. nice video, i officially have found someone who has fucked their 100kW bottom end BETTER than i did!
Shit i only had an undone no.1 main bearing and half torqued no.4 main!
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Tue, 08 June 2004 13:21
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lol Karl.. yes yes FWD I get it...
yeah, my oil pressure guage in the Sleekar doesn't register sudden drops around corners.. but my ears do heheh
I guess I will congratulate my mate on his amazing stuffing job lol
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Wed, 09 June 2004 08:39
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Ok thanks to IRA11LY and Dominator Engine Reconditioning in Guilford here is what is happening
Crank is getting a total re-grind. Forunately it wasn't too far gone, but the new bearings are 30thou??? the largest size they make anyway
All new bottom bearings
All new pistons (slightly larger - old ones had quite marked up skirts)
New rings
TRD Head Gasket
Honed bores as they were quite grooved apparently (I thought they were ok.. but there you go)
and all new seals and stuff to go with that..
So.. this is costing not much shy of a grand with me and Nick doing all the work ourselves...and we have a certified very good engine
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) -- what we are doing now
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Wed, 09 June 2004 08:40
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whats wrong with a 4age?
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) -- what we are doing now
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Wed, 09 June 2004 08:49
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everything was wrong with the 4age.. should have chucked it in the bin a got a 3SGE I told him... but did he listen... noooooo
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) -- what we are doing now
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Wed, 09 June 2004 09:11
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bah
4age powa!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sunshine Coast
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) -- what we are doing now
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Wed, 09 June 2004 11:04
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have u considered a new engine?? some times its the cheapest way..well in my case it was..i got quoted 900 for a jap spec 3sge with 60 000km on it..but i thought doing all the engine work my self would be cheaper..but i was wrong..a grand down the track my car gets going a week later a bearing spins and flattens out..500 later gets goihng again and a bearing spins again( i swear it is being done right, it's not my fualt  ) so now im realllllllly pissed..and cos of all the luck im having with my car..my amp decides to blow up 5 minutes after i hook it up..... aaarrrhhhgggg!!!!!
well watever u do good luck man..ur lucky only 1 bearing went the metal from the one that went in mine went through the resat of the bearings and screwed them all..i think maybe my bearings went both times is cos maybe it had alrready be grinded and i got wrong size bearings???
yeah ok ill shut up now peace out
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Bad Rattle in head area (see included movies) any ideas? the final verdict
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Wed, 09 June 2004 11:24
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| RobST162 wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 07:19 |
thanks for that gt!
I would have to do some welding for that I have no welder. Could probably get it done at a shop I suppose
grr I need a welder!!!!
btw, thanks for watching the vids and all guys, heaps nice
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3 car batteries + many jumper leads + vise clamp + some welding rods.. your all set !
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