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Location:
victoria
Registered:
June 2004
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working a stock 3t worth it?
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Sun, 06 June 2004 07:46
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help from anyone much appreciated. Ihave a stock 3t engine in my ta22. just wondering if it's worth pouring money into and if so what sort of mods can be done, how much power is posibble, an what sort of parts i'd be looking at getting off what cars an stuff like that. basically whether i'd be wasting my time or not? cheers.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Sun, 06 June 2004 08:19
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you can get power from them , though in all honest having had a pretty worked 2t , a 2tg is still a better option in the long run ..
3tgte ( efi turbo ) would be a better goal to aom for , someing newer - EFI , and forced induction will make the ta22 more fun , but prepare to back it up with better brakes at least
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Location:
timaru NZ
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Sun, 06 June 2004 08:40
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the 3T in most eyes is a heavy old boat anchor not even worthy of scrapping, but i beg to differ.
in my experience with the stock unit they are impossible to kill.
i had one in an auto TT132 wagon that had no oil pressure, or compression and a sloppy timing chain when i got it, i cooked it several times, and every time it fired up and kept going strong (done 20,000km with that car).
also had a stock one in my liteace van that was getting close to being as rattly and done 15k a lot of which was towing heavy loads including my club car.
unmodified they pack a wee bit of punch in light cars (KE70/KP60) as they have good torque and this is the reason i modded my first one as it was in a KE70 sedan. WARNING!! make sure it is a 3-T and not an import 13-T or the injected 3-T as the heads are different and can cause problems which lead to my self built engine heamoraging after only a few hundred km.the replacement moter i had properly modded has only just been taken out of service due to a run bearing after 12 years of (ab)use.
get the head ported slightly and clean off the casting flash inside the chambers. the stock valves are sufficent but bigger valves will be a benefit. i installed a hot street cam (270 duration) flows and a lighter flywheel as well as a baffled sump.
induction has been a variety of downdraft, twin downdraft and sidedraft and depending on usage/economy i can't advise which is best but the best 'feel' under foot i had was with a dual 40/40 syncronised weber off a 3.0 capri but even the 32/36 went pretty good and had the speedo well off the clock on rallystages, i've never gone so far as putting twin d/d webers on it but believe that it would go real good ,especially down low.
i originally estimated power to be 110-120 but having now run the car with a 110hp 2-TG ,i now believe it was 120+ and possibly even 150-160 when the 40/40 was fitted and run on Elf fuel.my engine builder claimed an easy 180 out of his one he built 15 years ago.
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Location:
victoria
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Sun, 06 June 2004 11:31
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cheers mate i'll have a think an check some stuff out.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Sun, 06 June 2004 14:10
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You can throw thousands of dollars at a 3T and still get beaten at the lights by a stock VN Commodore. That pretty much says it all doesn't it?
I owned a TA22 with a 3T many moons ago, and while it was a fun runabout for an 18 year old hooligan, even back then I knew it was a slow car. If I drove the same car today I'd probably fall asleep at the wheel. So if it's performance you're after, don't waste your time - get something with more potential out of the box, like a 3T-GTE as already suggested. Take it from someone who's been there and done that!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Sun, 06 June 2004 16:19
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It's not all about speed though, they're fun just to fang around in. I would happily drive anthing that revs like crazy and is manual over a quicker, smoother, auto limosuine.
Although 3t-T (or even easier 3t-gte) would go quite nicely i think.
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Location:
timaru NZ
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Sun, 06 June 2004 20:41
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Norbie, how about a 3-T that has only very basic mods that keeps up with 4-age's.sure the outright HP figure isn't staggering but having power on tap from idle as opposed to 4000prm(4age),and having to wring it's neck to get anywhere has got to be a plus.
i never stated that a modded 3-T would be the king of intersection sprints (a VN commonwhore will beat a lot of cars in a straight line), but get them out in the hills and the torque they produce comes into their own .
for sure the 3-TGTE has more power in stock form, but they are also a lot heavier and have a larger rotational mass and require a heavier gearbox , and are getting quite rare on both sides of the Tasman.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Mon, 07 June 2004 00:04
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Each to their own I guess. If you think keeping up with a 4A-GE is something to aspire to, I guess a worked 3T must be all good. 
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Mon, 07 June 2004 11:52
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no substitutes for cubic inches bro !
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Mon, 07 June 2004 11:54
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| Hot Celica wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 21:52 |
no substitutes for cubic inches bro !
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Umm yes there is! Its called a turbo 
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Mon, 07 June 2004 12:03
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3tc is one of the most respected 4 cylinders ever, period. Proven.
Puerto Ricans have been running 7 second quarter mile ETs LONG ago! Over 10 yars ago, I've seen 10sec daily driven 3TC corollas blow the doors off supras, rx7s, Zcars, you name it... and they are inexpensive to build too.
At the onset of the import drag racing craze in the u.s. a few years back, the west coast hondas brought their hyped up, high hp, 'wonderful' technologically advanced, big $$$$ cars to the east coast to show the 'old school' racers how its done..... they got slaughtered. Huge embarrassment. What the 3TC left behind, the rotarys cleaned up.
That lil motor is nothing to fck with.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Mon, 07 June 2004 12:26
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| Cool1 wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 21:54 |
| Hot Celica wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 21:52 |
no substitutes for cubic inches bro !
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Umm yes there is! Its called a turbo
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hey chill out bloke, putting in a bigger engine would be cheaper than getting a custom made turbo kit made up for a 3tc !
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:22
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3T's are definitely very very strong, and that's how the crazy Puerto Ricans get them to run 7's (ie they pump in ridiculous amounts of boost and the engines hold together somehow). How is this relevant to the current thread though? Oh, that's right, it isn't. 
Like I said earlier, I once owned a TA22 with a 3T-C and it was slow, period. Proven. Yes you can modify it and make it a lot faster but the same applies to any engine doesn't it? If you want to go fast there are lots of far more cost-effective options available.
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Location:
Australia
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Tue, 08 June 2004 06:32
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i had a ta22 with a blueprinted 3t, higher compression, extractors, 38/38 downdraught webber, cam, it went pretty well.
was part built for a rally project. i revved its tits off for three years and didnt have one problem. haha. it revved to about seven too (if i remember correct)
but couldnt beat the turbs!
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Tue, 08 June 2004 08:21
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He asked if a moded 3t was a waste of time/money.
Yours was obviously unsucessful, many others weren't. period. but u blame the motor.
I did the 32/36, cams, head, etc.. then went to sidedrafts + nitros. Downsides were noise and tempermental, just like any other similiarly moded motor, but in a te72 it was a fast car. I revved it repeatedly to 8500 rpm (stock tach) on the stock bottom end. Never had a problem. Parts dirt cheap unlike todays motors; cam $150, springs $60 usd
After seeing 3tc STREET turbo motors today, still waxing 3sgte, sr20, 13b, etc., Taking into account what they spend on such outfits vs the end results, I'd say they're still worth it. Point I'm making is that you already have a very capable platform. Research it if u like and weigh the costs, before u dismiss it.
Some use stock inexpensive mazda truck pistons. Make a turbo manifold just as you'd do for a 4ag. Hack an intake/ run standalone. Then you'd be in some pretty fast company.
Folks this way are surrounded by reasonably priced late model powerplants, but yet still they RARELY swap out a 3tc, and its not because they can't. There is a reason.
Puerto ricans aren't only crazy, they're very smart.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
March 2004
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Tue, 08 June 2004 10:47
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TA22frog,
A quesion like that on these forums wil get yo quite a range of responces. You have to remember you are now in Toyota country and some of us are pretty one eyed on our prefered power plant or Toyota. Its all in good fun tho so don't take much of anything written around here the wrong way.
But anyway on to your question, In order to really answer it we need to know what your budget and expectations are. A 3T can be an Awesome bit of gear. Depending on how far you want to go with it they may not represent the best bang for your buck.
Factory they are a low compression uninspiring boat anchor but they do have ALOT of potential if you know what your doing. Keep something in mind here. A poorly reserched or packaged engine will yeild poor results. ALOT of forum goers will blame poor performance on the engine rather than acknowledge they built the wrong combination.
If you want a mild power increase for minimal dollars, the 3T probably isn't the go unless you can do the work yourself. If you can built it yourself then T series parts are relativly cheap and a Balance 3T with good compression, the right can and headwork WILL beat a VN commodore off the lights. Just don;t fall into the trap of BIG is better with your cam selection. If the traffic light grand prix is your sport then you want something than comes on strong early.
But anyway hope that gives you something to start on. Oh and yes I have had more than my share o T series engines (Still do ! )
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Location:
timaru NZ
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Wed, 09 June 2004 09:44
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[quote title=Norbie wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 11:22]3T's are definitely very very strong, and that's how the crazy Puerto Ricans get them to run 7's (ie they pump in ridiculous amounts of boost and the engines hold together somehow). How is this relevant to the current thread though? Oh, that's right, it isn't.
Norbie, it is entirely relevent, TA22frog asked if they are worth working, and if the Puerto Ricans got 7's out of them ,then that says a lot, i havn't seen any other pushrod engines get close to that( altough i don't follow the drag scene , it may have been done).
it's the same as saying the little 4K isn't worth touching, if you can get a reliable 130-150hp out of on and have it in a Starlet you've got a giant killing 0-1300 class race/rally car.
not every one wants huge cc's and late model twin-cams.
different smokes for different folks.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Wed, 09 June 2004 13:50
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A highly modified drag-only engine with a giant turbo running on methanol that probably gets rebuilt after 3 or 4 runs down the drag strip is a very, very different proposition to a slightly worked 3T in a street-driven car. That's what I meant when I said it was "irrelevant" to the discussion at hand, and I stand by that statement.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Wed, 09 June 2004 16:16
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My criteria for weather and engine is worth working. In no
particular order
1. Are parts cheap?
2. Does the engine have a stong enough 'base' to be worked upon
3. Is there another engine that would better it stock, that is a
'bolt in' or close to it?
I think 3t would satisfy all the above. You have a 4ag's but
then there not entirely bolt in..
Engines are just pistons in a block. Weather you've got
good head design, turbo's, OHC, or pushrods, it really doesn't change the guts of the engine, just being crank, rods, pistons and block.
Pushrods - they open vales.. OHC -- opens valves... not much dif.
turbo? -- can be made to fit any engine
head design -- port it!
I can't see why a 4ag is better than a 3t?
Better head design? Port the 3t head...
Pushrods Vs OHC? pfff.. either way the valve opens.
what does it come down to? How high can i rev this thing before it goes pop? ---> bottom end & breathing...
Just like all '70's shit, built to last 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Wed, 09 June 2004 23:00
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| hemi twofifteen turbo wrote on Thu, 10 June 2004 02:16 |
3. Is there another engine that would better it stock, that is a 'bolt in' or close to it?
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Never heard of the 3T-GTE? It has been mentioned several times in this thread already...
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Location:
timaru NZ
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Thu, 10 June 2004 06:33
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the 3-TGTE is the donor engine to get the 'bolt on ' bits to make a 3-T pushrod turbo 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: working a stock 3t worth it?
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Fri, 11 June 2004 09:32
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yeah I know of the 3t-gte, I assumed it was the same block as the 3t. And i agree dropping one of those in would be instant power. Plus stronger rods, crank, pistons etc. Good base to work from. As for the the context in which you take the open question of 'is it worth working a stock 3t' i take the question as
"If i do a few things to a 3t can i get it to perform reasonably well for decent HP per dollar gains" for which i can say yes.
Of course the 1ggte is practically a bolt in too, but then again, i didn't take the question in that context.
Also, i don't see the problem having a "pushrod" turbo. I don't understand the joke with pushrods? They work. So does OHC.
Is it just a term based off that under carbed, under cammed (emmisions) clapped out old V8's used pushrods? Or is it a term used to describe how valves are opened?
Or is a term that seperates the massive changes in head design (ie flow characteristics) of newer heads, which just happened to incorporate OHC at the same time?
Honestly the only 'revolution' in valve train technology i will
commerate to be 'new' will be solonoid operated continously variable intake/exhaust vales.. Ie, CAMLESS engines..
If you've got pushrods, or OHC, you've still got a CAM. and that
is the limitation of the engine's performance MORESO than the link of mechanical components actuating the valves. You don't believe me? Go have a look at some racing pushrod engines...
If you wish to make a joke of pushrods, go for it, but it's just going to be your loss, esp if it's a 3t-ct that blows you away at the lights.
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