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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Sun, 06 June 2004 23:26
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ok...
say youre fanging it through the twisty bits, and you JUST overcook your entry speed to a decent corner... and the front end starts pushing...
alternatively, you get the entry speed just fine (you think), but you missjudge the apex, and have to tighten the radius. once again the front starts pushing.
or, finally, youre going downhill, and you hit a downhill off-camber corner... the front starts pushing (surprise!)
what can you do?
ive tried dabbing the brakes to shift weight forward, and cant seem to get that to work, it just seems to lock the front and send it off the corner faster.
ive tried gassing it a little to break the rear end and turn the car in a little more, but all this seems to do is encourage the car to continue sliding, just at a different angle.
SO... what do the pro's do? how is this correctable mid corner?
AND THEN... what kind of changes in setup will help prevent this in the future? tyre pressure, toe, camber, shock adjustment (rebound vs compression daming rates) etc etc
cheers
ed
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Sun, 06 June 2004 23:51
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I'm interested in this thread so really just want to join the discussion 
I suppose you want more front end traction while turning, so some more negative camber?
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 00:09
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Normally I just come off the throttle and hang on when I'm in a situation like that. Occasionally a very gentle dab on the brakes will help, but usually that just makes things worse. The idea is not to get into that situation in the first place, because once you're there you're pretty much screwed! 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 00:49
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Going in too hot is the worst thing you can do, and why you see race cars understeer off the track all the time. there's only so much you can do to change the momentum of the car.
My usual tactic in that situation is to give it a stab of throttle to break the rear end out (which is easy when you're on the limit of traction anyway) then give it gentle throttle to push the car back into the right line, then back off slightly to bring the slide back in.
NB - this tactic does NOT work when your tyre is blown. it will initiate a slide, then a spin, then a crash 
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 01:30
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If you're dabbing the brakes/lifting off sharply/accelerating and it just understeers more, there are two things I can think of:
1: Something is wrong with your front suspension to make it handle like a WRX
2: You're coming in too shallow and there's not enough momentum from the rear end to swing it through. Try turning later or braking later?
If you brake *just* before hitting the apex, what happens?
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Location:
Melb
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 02:03
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i think there's a deacceleration method you can use but only once you've practised it quite a bit and only for emergency use.
hold brake lightly and accel at the same time. It has something to do with shifting the weight that i cbf thinking of right now.
But really, you shouldn't be getting into that situation in teh first place. Another thing you could try is steer into the direction that the car is understeering into, and then brake when it's gained traction or if you can start turning again?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 02:10
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you still have the 14's on dont you? if so i would say your finding sidewalls have less grip then the treddy bit thats ment to be on the bottom
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 02:51
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If your having to tighten the apex in the corner and your understeering theres 2 things wrong in terms of your style.. firstly you havent been looking up and ahead through the corner and secondly, because of the first error youve misjudged the apex.
EDIT: also forgot to add here if your brakeing thru the corner youve left it too late, you need to achieve nearly 90% of your brakeing in a straight line before you turn the wheel in to the corner.. the other 10% is for control at entry, you should be acclerating before you hit the apex.
now that youve discovered your driving flaw lets look at the mechanics of it. Forget about improving the suspension for a sec... if youve come in hot or are having to tighten and you are understeeringthen you can try these few things.. remeber to try this on a safe track first that way theres no.. mishaps ...
in a FWD floor the thing and hang on, it may break more traction on the inside wheel depending on the point in the torque range your sitting in or the quality of your suspension, but a FWD will pull out of understeer almost every time.
In RWD once the front is letting go the worst thing you can do (insert IMHO here) is to brake... unless you are going so fast your going to hit something anyway and you want to try and scrub off the speed before impact. Braking throws the weight back over the front which is allready forceing the tyres to an irregular shape at the contact patch and to loose traction.. the added weight shift spreads the contact patch wider and as we all know.. wider tyres when sliding, especially in the wet offer less traction than a narrow contact patch due to weight dispersion. In my experience a couple of things that seem to work are this...
if you have good throttle control over your vehicle and are confident in your ability, then you can feather the throttle to make the weight transfer foward and back, you do this by keeping the car neutral in terms of accel and also using the throttle to make the car slow slightly by closing right off then a slight blip back on. imagine it as ABS without the brakes, it works better on loose surfaces than hard as the rear tends to kick sideways as well to help counter the understeer. Ive found it can also help to turn the steering wheel a little harder into the corner on the back off to throw the ass out more
another way is to use full throttle, wait till the car is at a point so far understeering into the corner that you know if you dump a load of horsepower the car will end up in a straight line pointing in the direction you want to travel, keep the pedal well down until it starts to grip then ease off, this is great for tarmac and is close to what the "drift" guys do in japan. in a smaller powered vehicle like a sprinter etc you will need to dump on the throttle, then quickly pop the clutch to make the rears spin up. warning! on the road where theres all sorts of solid objects around you, this isnt a guide for the uninitiated!!!
the final way to combat it is to throw the car in to a negative stance, this feels horrible,unnatural, and is hard to make yourself do. as it starts to slide up front engage the clutch and keep it there until the car regains composure this can seem like forever, do not touch the brakes or engage the gear during any of this time, and the G forces feel very unnatural.. but it does work, not really usefull for any performance application but it does make the car regain itself.
ok beyond all this the main issue is you probhably havent set the car up correctly .. and i cant be bothered writing another thousand words right now
Warning!!: the words and descriptions used in this scenario are not neccesarily the opinion of the toymods board, it is the authors intention that this advice be used on roads which are not for general public use
[Updated on: Mon, 07 June 2004 09:28]
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 03:17
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slow in fast out 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 03:24
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| rob_RA40 wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 13:17 |
slow in fast out
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slow?
hmmm, not familiar with that word 
slow
\Slow\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Slowed; p. pr. & vb. n. Slowing.] To render slow; to slacken the speed of; to retard; to delay; as, to slow a steamer. Moving a short space in a relatively long time; not swift; not quick in motion; not rapid; moderate; deliberate; as, a slow stream; a slow motion.
errrr, me not like this slow, slow is teh ghey
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 03:25
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michael, thanks for the lengthy reply, a good read.
if you get the motivation, id be keen to read volume two
cheers
ed
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 03:59
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Slow in fast out, that's the quickest way around a corner; remember that "slow" is a relative term.
Fast in slow out, that's for the dorifto monkeys and it's also the slowest way around a corner!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 04:01
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countersteer, step on the clutch and pull the handbrake, not like your going to park but short 1 second pulls. ie, pull, release, pull, release, wait, pull. unse until you can feel rear end movement
also try to keep the revs up by blipping the throttle so when your nose points in direction of next corner, pop the clutch and counter steer into the next corner using a 'feint' motion, you will be sideways but if you can control it then no worries
not really the best thing to in a race application, but it will do a good job at removing understeer or initiating drift
the same technique without the handbrake is called a 'shift-lock' technique, where you use the gears and clutch to lock the lsd and break traction, but you would need a neutral entry to do this, not an under entry
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 04:02
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| Norbie wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 13:59 |
Fast in slow out, that's for the dorifto monkeys and it's also the slowest way around a corner!
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haha correct! but its the most fun!!
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
February 2003
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 07:28
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I would also use the handbrake method and slightly dab the front brakes to try and bring that front end back in place,
Some of the benifits of a 2 way LSD are enabling you to back off and bring the rear around in line if your going in too hot with the front... works for my setup.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 08:04
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Better tyres.
Centerlink performance likes to cut corners. *pardon the pun*
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Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 08:07
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| ae86drift wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 14:01 |
countersteer, step on the clutch and pull the handbrake, not like your going to park but short 1 second pulls. ie, pull, release, pull, release, wait, pull. unse until you can feel rear end movement
also try to keep the revs up by blipping the throttle so when your nose points in direction of next corner, pop the clutch and counter steer into the next corner using a 'feint' motion, you will be sideways but if you can control it then no worries
not really the best thing to in a race application, but it will do a good job at removing understeer or initiating drift
the same technique without the handbrake is called a 'shift-lock' technique, where you use the gears and clutch to lock the lsd and break traction, but you would need a neutral entry to do this, not an under entry
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You arnt going to have time to do this if your understeering off the road. The best thing to do is to back off the accelerator until you have traction then get back on the correct line before you accelerate again. I wouldnt try to "drift" my way out of understeer for 2 reasons. 1. You still have to wait for the front wheels to gain traction, in which case you could have coninued driving normally without loosing time sliding around. 2. On a racetrack (I hope you werent suggesting people try to drift out of understeer on public roads) I would much rather leave the track while going forward because going sideways into the sand can cause the car to roll.
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Location:
theres a castle on my hil...
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 08:26
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best thing to do is brake to slow your speed down. i would not "dab" the brakes though, gently squeeze them so you dont lock up.
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I supported Toymods
Toymods Club Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 08:35
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| IRA11Y wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 12:51 |
in a FWD floor the thing and hang on, it may break more traction on the inside wheel depending on the point in the torque range your sitting in or the quality of your suspension, but a FWD will pull out of understeer almost every time.
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hehheh.. I still don't find myself with the steelies to do this. On the same token, I don't know if I have EVER experienced high speed understeer. Something I've typed up a post on before was left foot braking. Too much and this is a recipe for disaster (something I've found can make my car swap ends quite easily). Just enough really settles the front end down though and brings it back into line nicely.
I imagine this would be an entirely different kettle of fish in an MA61 though, and would not be something I would be keen on trying out.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 09:31
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ok i can feel my Hulk arse-hole personality kicking in again... (dont make me angry.. you wont like me when im angry)
lizardmech
although i respect the right of every creatin to vote and post freely, perhaps you need to re-read my coments before making a fool of yourself and making incorrect and obtuse statements....
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You arnt going to have time to do this if your understeering off the road.
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really?? have you watched any WRC events lately?? they seem to be able to cope and react pretty well around most corners in excess of 100kmh with understeer. If your not fast enough then move over to the side of the road and let others pass champ.
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The best thing to do is to back off the accelerator until you have traction then get back on the correct line before you accelerate again
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yeah think i pretty much covered that along with about 4 other people before you... did you actually read all the post(s)?
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I wouldnt try to "drift" my way out of understeer for 2 reasons. 1. You still have to wait for the front wheels to gain traction, in which case you could have coninued driving normally without loosing time sliding around.
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is that because you cant do it, are afraid to try, or have never competed in a REAL event under real traction conditions past draging with your mums camry wagon off the lights after school?
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On a racetrack (I hope you werent suggesting people try to drift out of understeer on public roads) I would much rather leave the track while going forward because going sideways into the sand can cause the car to roll.
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uhmm im not sure guys? .. did this
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warning! on the road where theres all sorts of solid objects around you, this isnt a guide for the uninitiated!!!
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and this
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.. remeber to try this on a safe track first that way theres no.. mishaps ...
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get the point across about not doing it on the road??
just in case it diddnt i just added this
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Warning!!: the words and descriptions used in this scenario are not neccesarily the opinion of the toymods board, it is the authors intention that this advice be used on roads which are not for general public use
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Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 10:11
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My post was in regards to the guy who said he should try the handbrake for a second then try it again if he still wasnt sideways. I apologize if I appeared to be criticising your post, what you said sounds spot on to me.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 10:26
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| lizardmech wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 20:11 |
My post was in regards to the guy who said he should try the handbrake for a second then try it again if he still wasnt sideways. I apologize if I appeared to be criticising your post, what you said sounds spot on to me.
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and? theres nothing wrong with using the handbrake to eliminate understeer, you just have to use short pulls, nto pull and hold on. get it?
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 10:38
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and? theres nothing wrong with using the handbrake to eliminate understeer, you just have to use short pulls, nto pull and hold on. get it?
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the worst is when it gets stuck on Ill tell you all about the results of a mini, a handbrake, a hill and some pine trees one day 
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Location:
s.a
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 10:52
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what i do is immediately lift right off the throttle and a quick half jab of the brakes and then stay on them very lightly, then try not to turn in so much into the corner - try to get it in control with slight turn in rather than try for full turn in. give the front tires a chance. i avoid wild overoversteer at all costs. i drive very hard but dont try to shift weight stupidly fast. especially drift style during transitional steering, i dont drift and dont want to. drive balanced. use four wheels for grip. 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 10:52
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hehe not when you have a new handbrake cable, good discs and an anti-lock handbrake knob
haha but do tell do tell
and what rallies do you participate in. in what classes and what car?
im really interested!! and envious!
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Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 10:55
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I know someone who always likes to keep a bottle of water with him. When he is in the car he like to keep his water bottle resting between his hand brake and seat. It was funny when he decided to use the handbrake to slide round a corner. He was lucky he was only doing about 30 and it was a wide dirt road.
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Location:
s.a
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 11:07
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r u replying to my post? if u r, i dont rally drive, though i am envious of rally drivers skill. i just got back from qld for the arc. i service crew for wrx's, pulsar gti-r.
i rolled my celica roof first into a tree once, coz i thought i could rally drive on the dirt. i like the tarmac hill climb style drive. and my car (ta22) is a very competent twisty road performer. i would never drive an unmodified celica hard, they have (i think so) a lot of understeer built into them.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 11:13
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| silly wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 21:07 |
r u replying to my post? if u r, i dont rally drive, though i am envious of rally drivers skill. i just got back from qld for the arc. i service crew for wrx's, pulsar gti-r.
i rolled my celica roof first into a tree once, coz i thought i could rally drive on the dirt. i like the tarmac hill climb style drive. and my car (ta22) is a very competent twisty road performer. i would never drive an unmodified celica hard, they have (i think so) a lot of understeer built into them.
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i was referring to irally not you.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 12:11
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| ae86drift wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 20:52 |
an anti-lock handbrake knob
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You mean a "spin turn knob"? haha
As for accelerating out of understeer, WTF is wrong with that?
It's a whole lot more controlled than yanking a freaking hand brake or dumping the clutch!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 13:33
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so how do these suggestions apply when you are barrelling down a mountain, hit a corner too fast, are understeering toward a cliff, and have just hit loose gravel??
seriously.. what would you do?
i would not be reaching for the handbrake thats for sure....
it's all fine and dandy on a flat road with plenty of run off space, but what if it IS life and death?
oh yeah, brake more for the corner in the first place.. or lift your knees up 
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 15:00
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| oldcorollas wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 23:33 |
so how do these suggestions apply when you are barrelling down a mountain, hit a corner too fast, are understeering toward a cliff, and have just hit loose gravel??
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stew, were you watching??
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 16:48
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i had this exact thing happen to me the other day when i was on a bit of a flex with some mates through the hills.
was getting tired and stopped paying too much attention, didnt get on the breaks early enough, had too much entry speed into the corner and started underseering off the road straitg for some trees on the outside of the curve.
what i did following was purely reflex. i tapped the brakes turned even sharper into the corner, back of the car flicked out (was half in the dirt by this stage), then countersteered back the other way flung the tail out into the other lane, then straightened up no worse for ware and kept going.
seemed to work, if ihadnt have done what i did i would have hit the trees.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 20:58
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I think we should start a new thread about OVERSTEER now...
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:40
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| Razor wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 06:58 |
I think we should start a new thread about OVERSTEER now...
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Yup... It's a whole different situation if he COULD bring the rear end out, but the whole point of this thread was that he couldn't...
Normally if you overcook a corner, lift off or brake...
Lifting off too suddenly or braking too hard can bring the rear out, which is preferable in this situation since it slows down the car HEAPS faster, but also provides some serious brown pants moments.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:55
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Hmm, now I think about it, this situation occured in an MA61 did it not? And an MA61 is the most oversteer-biased car I've ever driven! How the hell did you make it understeer like that Ed? If I go into a corner too hot it's always the back end trying to overtake the front...
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Tue, 08 June 2004 00:50
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| Norbie wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 09:55 |
Hmm, now I think about it, this situation occured in an MA61 did it not? And an MA61 is the most oversteer-biased car I've ever driven! How the hell did you make it understeer like that Ed? If I go into a corner too hot it's always the back end trying to overtake the front...
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overcooked the entry speed to a downhill, off-camber, tightening-radius right hand corner. the front just disappeared. i tried to break the rear, and managed to do so a little bit, but ultimately just threshold broke, and parked up just next to the armaco.
the whole slo-mo moment, i was trying to a) get a bit more bite, and b) get the ass to move around a little. i managed neither.
i think that i approached the corner too shallow, and way too fast. end of story really. it was the final turn in a tight series of bends so theres not a lot of room to get the approach right. i was just going too fast...
i guess the next question, which i hinted at in the beginning, is how can you improve the set up of the suspension to raise the point at which things in the front let go?
cheers
ed
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Tue, 08 June 2004 01:02
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Off camber corners are always difficult for suspension, especially since the harder the suspension, the less it can deal with it.
Off camber, downhill, too much entry speed, and too shallow an approach is pretty much the worst situation you will ever come across.
Just chalk it up to experience and learn from it methinks. Nothing else you can do.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Tue, 08 June 2004 01:13
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What he said. There are some situations where you're just screwed; all you can do is hang on and hope you don't hit anything before you stop. Been there, done that, have the stained undies to prove it.
As for improving your front end for better turn-in, I'd suggest a degree or so of extra camber and as much castor as you can manage would be a good start. A slightly stiffer swaybar may help also but that would require a bit of experimentation... and let's face it, who has the time and the budget to compare half a dozen different swaybars back-to-back on a race track?
(The answer is me, when I'm daydreaming at work).
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Tue, 08 June 2004 01:22
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| Norbie wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 11:13 |
There are some situations where you're just screwed; all you can do is hang on and hope you don't hit anything before you stop.
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i wonder what it is about me, dubbo, large stationary objects, and a sideways out-of-control car...
i love that moment where you just let go of the wheel, relinquish control of the car, sit back, and just wait and watch 
as for setup, what about damping rates? trial and error i guess, but any gerneral rules? id imaging quicker compression, and slower rebound?
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Tue, 08 June 2004 01:23
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i wish my 3 piston 4ac had the hp to do that 
if you want more overster, stifeen the rear suspension
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Tue, 08 June 2004 01:55
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Damping rates are something I don't understand very well. What you said sounds pretty good, but I'd be consulting someone much more knowledgeable than myself if I was selecting new damping rates for my car.
Hint: Paul Pyyvaara knows a great deal about this sort of stuff (the Aussie class ARC championship under his belt says so) and he's also familiar with the MA61. Maybe try bouncing some ideas off him?
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Wed, 09 June 2004 01:31
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if you are the kind of driver that tends to go in 'too hot' you'll want slower bump because you are probably loading up the outside front tire too quickly, the rebound damping probably wouldn't be such a great issue as it's unlikely you will be unloading the front end in any great hurry and it won't require so much predictability (unlike a driver who tends to oversteer more naturally). You may want to look into sway bars as well, but I'm not really an expert (I learnt half of my car set up stuff from GPL and that can only teach so much, and I haven't gone through all of race car vehicle dynamics yet)
My personal preference for correcting massive understeer related to going in way too hot is to use left foot braking. Wouldn't work brilliantly on a rear wheel drive car, but is very effective in anything else. You really just need the nads (and some pretty quick hands) to turn in hard and mash the throttle with a rear wheel drive.
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Location:
Australia
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Wed, 09 June 2004 07:49
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what do you race irally???
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Wed, 09 June 2004 08:17
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| rustfree wrote on Wed, 09 June 2004 17:49 |
what do you race irally???
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One of these:
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Wed, 09 June 2004 08:22
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at least its not one of these..
 + 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Wed, 09 June 2004 08:39
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hehe, Nark and IRA11Y.
I'm pretty sure thats the best corolla/celica slinging match I've even seen! Had me on the floor
Cheers
Wilbo
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Wed, 09 June 2004 09:31
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| Quote: |
what do you race irally???
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I race rice boys at traffic lights.. cause theyre easy prey
( but only if theyve got more than 50Kw worth of stickers.. dont wanna make it too easy for myself to win!)
then for fun i embarass Commonhores... cause they have a funny look on there face when a 1980's corolla with a falking paint job kicks there ass.
for real kicks i keep challenging Nark to a showdown.. knowing hell say "theres something wrong with my car" so ive won before i even have to turn the Key
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Wed, 09 June 2004 09:41
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| Quote: |
My personal preference for correcting massive understeer related to going in way too hot is to use left foot braking.
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Ive never found left foot braking a good option once the front has started to let go.. for two reasons,
firstly theres a tendency if while you are attempting to recocover, the front gives way even more, then you get to a state of semi controlled panic and overbrake, this causes more panic and more break then crunch
secondly, ive found that the best time to trail brake is on entry, then to balance the car mid corner, so really if your going to left brake youve allready got the car in control
another thing is that it can tie you up trying to get around all the pedals if you feel you suddenly need to drop a gear and hit the peak torque range in a hurry. the last thing id want to do in a semi panic situation is create more pressure if the left foot brake isnt controlling the slide. Nothing worse than trying to jump the left foot back across to the clutch and getting the toe of your boot caught on the back of the clutch pedal cause your rushing ( yeah ive never had that happen before  riiight )
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Wed, 09 June 2004 14:12
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| IRA11Y wrote on Wed, 09 June 2004 19:31 |
for real kicks i keep challenging Nark to a showdown.. knowing hell say "theres something wrong with my car" so ive won before i even have to turn the Key
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Pffttt.... I need something that's worth wasting fuel on.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Fri, 11 June 2004 16:08
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if you only managed to break the rear a little ed, you need more power
failing that, as someone mentioned in a different context (I think - cant be arsed reading back) use the a quick stab of the handbrake to get the back sliding, then use throttle to control it.
mind you I'm not terribly knowledgeable in handbrake use... in my celica I'm just floor it and it had perfect power & weight setup to go into a perfectly controlled 4 wheel drift (made hammering really, really easy). In the supra, accellerator controls the arse.
Have you checked your front shocks? (I have nfi about your setup). My old supra used to understeer like a bitch.. turned out it was a shock on its way out.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Fri, 11 June 2004 23:33
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I've never EVER needed to use my handbrake (other than when driving Corollas <insert obligatory comment about shopping trolleys here>). By the time you've turned the steering wheel, you should be able to control your angle by the accelerator.
If you can't do that then there's something wrong with your suspension or your technique.
Handbrakes are only useful for handbrake turns or hairpins. And I don't really have much experience with either.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Sat, 12 June 2004 06:03
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| Nark wrote on Sat, 12 June 2004 09:33 |
I've never EVER needed to use my handbrake (other than when driving Corollas <insert obligatory comment about shopping trolleys here>). By the time you've turned the steering wheel, you should be able to control your angle by the accelerator.
If you can't do that then there's something wrong with your suspension or your technique.
Handbrakes are only useful for handbrake turns or hairpins. And I don't really have much experience with either.
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i completley agree
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Sat, 12 June 2004 19:31
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I found that the way you turn the wheel can help with this, I'll probably get flamed or something..
but on those corners that go around, and tighten up at the end, on roads I don't really know, I usually sorta am turning the wheel say 60 degrees in, 40 degrees out, and so on and so on, very very smoothly and firmly. while reducing throttle..
but that's just me, I drive a sprinter so maybe it's completely different.
Left foot braking seems to work for me too.. but I've never misjudged a corner that badly that I need to left foot brake.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Sun, 13 June 2004 07:43
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| IRALLY posted something like this |
Ive never found left foot braking a good option once the front has started to let go.. for two reasons,
firstly theres a tendency if while you are attempting to recocover, the front gives way even more, then you get to a state of semi controlled panic and overbrake, this causes more panic and more break then crunch
secondly, ive found that the best time to trail brake is on entry, then to balance the car mid corner, so really if your going to left brake youve allready got the car in control
another thing is that it can tie you up trying to get around all the pedals if you feel you suddenly need to drop a gear and hit the peak torque range in a hurry. the last thing id want to do in a semi panic situation is create more pressure if the left foot brake isnt controlling the slide. Nothing worse than trying to jump the left foot back across to the clutch and getting the toe of your boot caught on the back of the clutch pedal cause your rushing ( yeah ive never had that happen before riiight )
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It depends whether you are driving a front (and to an extent four) wheel or rear wheel drive. If you have a front wheel car, you can use the left foot brake to modulate the braking effort between the front and the rears (and keep the fronts still going and not locking up), usually this helps work the rear tyres better (gets them to do some braking work rather than just trailing the fronts). Of course, you can only do about 20% of the braking that the fronts could, but that means you will be losing speed that much better. If you front end is completely loaded up, then you won't get any extra traction at the fronts by braking.
If you've 'lost' the front end because it won't turn enough (too big a slip angle or you are just going too fast and need to turn tighter) then braking will help by adding extra downward force onto the front tyres, thus increasing the tractive effort at the slip angle.
Like you said though, if the fronts are completely gone, then there is basically *nothing* that can be done to change the course of their travel until they come back on their own - keeping the wheel straight and braking as little as possible may aid the recovery, but you've already blown your chance at doing the corner quickly, and you may find that your car is destined for an accident.
This is where i think it's pertinent to point out what quality good drivers all have - good judgement! Over-cooking, incorrect gear selection or not setting the car up well into the corner shouldn't happen.
The car should be set up exactly for the corner that the driver plans out in their head, most of the work that the driver does for that corner should be completed by the first third or so of the arc of that corner. The rest of it may be just a bit of easy-as-pie steering correction as the power comes on, but by then the *next* corner should be in the mind of the driver.
My advice (aside from set up issues to aid your driving style) is that you should focus as little as possible on learning how to correct complete understeer over-cooking, and practise getting the entry to the corner perfect.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Sun, 13 June 2004 09:56
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and is there some trick to practicing that?
besides hours and hours on a racetrack!
^_^
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Sun, 13 June 2004 11:40
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I dunno - I'm not a good driver
Aside from hours and hours on a race track? There's the option of practising on quiet roads out in the middle of nowhere? Dirt road driving is good experience because the grip level is much lowe than on tarmac and you can get a feel for doing these things at slow speed, then once you feel pretty comfy on dirt, promote yourself to experimenting on race tracks.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Sun, 13 June 2004 17:20
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Yeah quiet mountain roads are good, but I don't really know that many that arnt TOO Far away (I like driving my efi 1.6.. it's good on fuel, i don't wanna have to use a full tank for a run) but getting to know roads is something i KIND OF try to avoide.. if it's all too familular i don't feel like I learn as much, even tho I go faster, but this is off topic!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Driving Techniques - How to stop the front end from 'pushing'
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Mon, 14 June 2004 07:54
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If you plan on being on, or near the limit around a corner, then your trajectory is more or less decided before you even arrive at the turn-in. Once you've committed to brake late, you'd better have the corner mapped out in your head well before it comes to turning the wheel.
Anytime it's gone pear-shaped like it did for Ed, I've gotten as much brake-on as possible without locking a front wheel (sometimes dragging the inside front for 5 metres or so) and just looked for exit options until the car's wiped off some speed or tucked back into the corner. Look BETWEEN the trees if you have to leave the road, NOT AT THEM!!! So far it's turned out o.k. for me!!
Have you guys read-up on traction budgets, the grip circle, weight transfer etc. etc.?? The site "GPL foolishness" is very instructive re: trail braking and stuff. Most of the things that people talk about (left-foot braking, turn-in oversteer etc) are much easier to understand through the seat of your pants - either once you've figured it out for yourself or in the passenger seat besides a professional instructor/racer.
Setup wise: I'd soften the front dampers slightly in their bump-stroke. This makes it much easier to transfer weight onto the front wheels without making the outside front break lateral-traction. Stiffening the Rear dampers in rebound and/or bump can have a big effect on the amount of turn-in oversteer you can extract from the chassis, but BE WARNED!: If the car's skittish or toey to begin with, bad situations quickly become worse with a car which oversteers under braking. The rear anti-roll bar is tied into the lift-off oversteer equation aswell.
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