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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Fri, 11 June 2004 08:51
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Ive been considering this one for a while, and thought i would open it up to the people of Toymods.
I am putting a full cage in my sprinter and have either of two options.
One, i can cut through the dash in order to keep as few bends in the cage as possible.
Or Two, i can go around the dash, but have more bends and hence a higher chance of structural collapse in an accident.
In both cases im also considering putting a bar from the cage through the firewall to the strut tower, and i think i would be able to do this in either setup.
What do you guys think? Also anyone know the RTA legalities on this topic, i havnt been able to get onto the engineer i normally talk to in the ACT because he is on holidays.
Opinions?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Fri, 11 June 2004 09:09
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Yeah, i am more partial to having the cage run through the dash. And i was under the impression that a full cage was legal in the ACT, but i cant find out for a little while. The RTA are useless there, and ill probably just wait until im back in Canberra for a little while.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Fri, 11 June 2004 09:18
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Run it throught the dash, and build and register the car as a rally car. That way, when you come to sell it, you have a market for the car, unlike an AE86 with an illegal cage in it!
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Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Fri, 11 June 2004 09:29
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In NSW it is posible to get your car registered (with the appropriate engineers certificate) normally with a half cage in place.
The car will then be registered as a two seater. Make sure the main hoop of the cage is at least 30cm from where your head is going to be when you are in the car. Might as well get it built to CAMS spec as well.
You can then have the front section of the cage made so it can be bolted in and out - which means going around and under the dash I guess.
If you do go the option of getting it registered as a rally car you will find that your on road activites are quite restrictive.
Either way I think you better confirm the legalities in ACT for such a mod. Also talk to CAMS as you don't want cage they will not register.
Cheers
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Fri, 11 June 2004 09:35
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Yeah, i had been referring to my CAMS manual quite extensively until it coagulated in an accident involving a liquid spill (mmm coffee). And so i need a new one as the pages around the cages section are impregnated with coffee and quite brown.
Was a 2000 edition anyway, needed updating.
As for rally registration, i would much rather have my car free to take to track meets. Rally reg is very restrictive in the ACT from memory, although ill have to confirm this one.
Im pretty sure we are allowed to have full cages in the ACT although talking to a friend who is still back there is making me doubt that now for some reason. If we arnt i may make the front arms and cross brace boltable in, but whether i do this on the dash or to the floor is another matter. Hiding the boltable pads on the dash would be VERY easy to do, or indeed to build them just under the dash and swap the dash for a non cutout dash when not using the full cage.
Ill have to figure it all out now, grrr RTA being so useless.
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sat, 12 June 2004 11:50
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Is the front/dash of a sprinter similar to the ae82 hatch? I ran my front legs in a straight line down from where the roof hits the windscreen to a point roughly where the floor turns up into the firewall, this missed the dash although i had to cut a small section away from the plastic lower part of the dash on each side. You may have to relocate the electrics that attach to the kick panel. We then replaced the bolt-in bar under the dash (that the steering column and under dash parts attach to) with a welded in member. We also put bars through the firewall and onto the front strut towers as well. If you want I can email you some photos of what it all looks like. Here in QLD we can have a full cage on the road but it must be engineering certified and seating capacity changed. I can also try and scan the '04 cams manual bits you need if you want them too.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sat, 12 June 2004 14:11
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Im picking up my '04 CAMS manual as part of the plethora of things to do on Tuesday, but some pictures would be great.
I think my email is in my profile.
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 10:51
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Too easy, piccies on the way.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 11:08
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through dash, for sure.
what you may want to look into doing is taking ALL of the interior trim out and welding the cage to whatever pillars it runs along too.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 11:12
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get a safety 21 from cusco if you can
around dash, winner design!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 11:35
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is the "safety 21" CAMS approved? or does it just have bling factor witht he name?
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 11:40
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You've got to make sure that it is to a cams design if you want to get a logbook and compete in cams sanctioned events. Always use the latest cams manual for the spec. too cos the buggers change it.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 12:06
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| ae86drift wrote on Sun, 13 June 2004 21:12 |
get a safety 21 from cusco if you can
around dash, winner design!
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Safety-21 is NOT a CAMS approved design. It is a cosmetic cage made out of 2" steel which has little chance of protecting you in an accident other than a roll over.
Basically useless. I have access to one if i wanted it though.
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 12:18
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There is pretty much no replacement for a fully welded in rops, not in CAMS eyes anyway. In a way it's good 'cos it's the safest option for a car, which by the sounds of other posts of yours takai, is going to be a rwd weapon that should be capable of some ridiculous corner speeds. In another way it's bad 'cos it means that you've no longer got a nice street car, it's now a racecar and this seems to turn a lot of guys away from rallying, having to have 2 cars, a nice drive car and your toy.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 12:19
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| takai wrote on Sun, 13 June 2004 22:06 |
| ae86drift wrote on Sun, 13 June 2004 21:12 |
get a safety 21 from cusco if you can
around dash, winner design!
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Safety-21 is NOT a CAMS approved design. It is a cosmetic cage made out of 2" steel which has little chance of protecting you in an accident other than a roll over.
Basically useless. I have access to one if i wanted it though.
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actually works well in a rollover. well from the cusco promo dvd i saw...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 12:40
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in any case.
| Quote: |
In both cases im also considering putting a bar from the cage through the firewall to the strut tower, and i think i would be able to do this in either setup.
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this is the best design if your building a dedicated race car.
above and beyond the best for structural rigidity and safety in accidents
but once that firewall is cut, you can kiss the road registerable part goodbye. no WAY in hell will anyone let this onroad on a full rego, MAYEB a rally rego but thats useless for road going, weekend warrior.
also, as far as i know, only way to rego ae86's in aus is to be fitted with half cage and rego'd as 2 seaters as per youngys previous post.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 12:42
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Yeah, thats why i said in anything other than a roll over Garth. Ive seen the same CUSCO promo as you.
But i want my cage for roll over as well as significant side impact which is where most of the hits are from the sides.
Thanks for the kind words paddles, i am going this far as i already have a second car, and the AE86 will be a mostly dedicated race car. I say mostly as at first ill have to drive it to the track etc as i dont have a trailer. Therefore the cage will have to be RTA approved as well as ROPS.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 12:57
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right.
sorry. must have misread.
i have the impression the cusco was a fairly robust and semi-legal full cage. you have heard otherwise? i wouldnt exactly call it "cosmetic". obviously not a 'race car' cage, but still fairly good at protecting the driver in a roll over i would imagine.
i think your going to have issues getting 'CAMS approved' and 'road legal' in the same cage design. especially with the nazi attitude of the RTA in nsw and ACT. not to mention the ridgid rules of the CAMS scrutineers.
but correct me if im wrong by all means! because that would bring much joy to many people with ae86's i believe! 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 14:18
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Oh, a Cusco Safety21 copy (3" tube rather than the 2 or 2.5 which is used normally) is a perfectly acceptable ROPS cage. But to put it quite simply the design is useless for anything other than rolling it. And when it comes down to it on road rally, and most circuit events a side impact is heaps more likely than a roll.
Rolling mostly occurs during rallys and other uneven surface events.
But even for this i woudlnt trust the Safety21 on its own, to put it quite simply a 6point non crossbraced cage just isnt strong enough. Even the CAMS regulations specify at least one crossbrace in the main hoop and roof area.
Now it all depends on the RTA, but from everything ive heard the ACT RTA are actually pretty good about it. Infact from talking to some BMSC people there are actually a couple of people who run full cages in road-legal cars.
As for the cosmetic comment, i (and many different engineers) use this to term a generic bolt in cage which may provide some structural integrity but not a great deal, and are mainly produced in order that street cars can look good. No offense intended if its being used for a proper purpose.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Sun, 13 June 2004 14:28
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paddles: can i post those pictures for other people to see?
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Mon, 14 June 2004 02:36
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As a bit on an aside to this, a recent CAMS newsletter hinted that further roll cage changes are planned by the governing body, the FIA. Now along with the requirement for additional cross bracing in the roof and the front hoop legs, there will be new provisions made for a bolt-in set-up.
Try the CAMS website for the latest details.
Mitch.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Mon, 14 June 2004 03:04
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Cool, ill be sure to ask for a paper copy of that newsletter tomorrow.
Should be interesting.
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Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Mon, 14 June 2004 10:19
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Could you give a link for those details on the CAMS website please. As all I found was:
The Roll Over Protection Section of the CAMS web site is currently being reviewed as a result of rule changes coming into force for 2004.
An updated set of information will be posted soon (last updated 17 March 2004).
For more information please contact the CAMS National Office.
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Mon, 14 June 2004 12:23
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Yeah takai, post em up. I'm wondering if you should maybe have a chat with a local car builder in the ACT to find out what the requirements are to get it road rego'd. It sounds as if we've got it a bit different up here in QLD because a cams design rops can be approved by our dept of transport for road use. Something else you should be aware of is that if you ever want to do an event that is an FIA sanctioned event (eg. targa tassie) then you will need to have the cage built to an FIA standard, this used to be an additional cross brace but i think it has changed to additional corner bracing as well. Mine is a CAMS spec only 'cos I only do club level and state championship level events. The thing that all you other guys with the bolt in "off the shelf" type cages should be considering is that a correctly installed cage is the backbone of your car and along with the seam welding it will considerably stiffen and strengthen the shell, that's why you build it from strut tower to strut tower, I just can't see how a bolt in basic cage will do this.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Location:
perth WA
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Roll Cage: Through Dash, or Around Dash.
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Tue, 15 June 2004 11:35
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It will be very unlikely that you will be able to transport a properly welded cage from one car to another  . The only way you could do so is by cutting off the roof  . A good cage is put together like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece is cut to exacting size, so once you try to cut it out nothing will fit properly. Also if you re-weld over an area that has been previously weld/then cut away and cleaned up it will lose its structural integrity. My advice would be, if you are building another shell, then wait and put a proper cage in that one only  .
Cheers
Jeff 
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