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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 15 May 2002 10:19
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Im just checking up on some small things before I begin my project.
My understanding is that torque and revs kill gearboxes so I was wondering what a W58 supra box could handle? Its being mated to a 3SGTE which will most likey be fairly stock to begin with other than ECU of course.
But the aim is to have around 200rwkw or more in future which I guess would be anywhere from 300-400Nm of torque? Rev limit will be somewhere around 7000-7500rpm. With the car being about 650-680kg, what chance do I have of the gearbox staying in one peice?
Should I be looking at stronger solutions to begin with ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 15 May 2002 10:59
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A quote from the Supra forums:
"The W58 is pretty tough, I made 480rwhp through it for a couple years, with a best 60' time of 1.72."
This guy has a turbocharged 2JZ-GE in his JZA80. 
The W58 is a very tough box indeed and should be OK for what you want to do, but if you want something stronger you'll be looking at an R154 ('Supra turbo' box), or something aftermarket and horrifically expensive.
Make sure you do in fact get a W58 and not a lesser W55-7 box as these came out on shitty 4 cylinders or relatively torque deficient 1GGE's (sorry Rob!).
Cheers Dave.
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 15 May 2002 11:58
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*rob runs out to his car with a magnet again*
but my sandwitch plate is... nevermind...   
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 15 May 2002 12:06
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Mind you, the W58 is strong in all versions, but the one from the Mk4 Supra is the strongest of the lot.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Toowoomba
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 15 May 2002 22:49
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Too true, there was an upgrade with a bigger input shaft (and bearings I think) in 93.5, but the original is still a very sturdy box.
How's that 5MGTE going Kev?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 15 May 2002 23:55
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Good box, just don't shift too hard.
I broke 2 through flat changing. Seized 2nd gear onto the main shaft in both cases.
Darren.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 16 May 2002 03:01
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Hey Tomato  (Just kidding I just really wanted to use that guy !)
I thought the strength of W55, W57 and W58 were all comparible. Everything I have read suggests they are equal in handling the punishment and it is just the ratios that vary between them.
Am I misinformed ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 16 May 2002 04:01
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Thanks Tomato,
I recon the gearbox guys would have a better idea than most so I'll make a mental note.....W58......Better..... 
BTW Love that first icon ! There is something about the bird that means you just don't grow out of thinging its cool !
Then again maybe thats because I haven't grown up yet !
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 16 May 2002 08:12
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Thanks greatly guys.
Is there any identifying marks to look for on the W58 box to know that its from the later model Mk4 ?
And will this change anything to do with mating to the 3SGTE via a modified 1S bellhousing ?
Cheers
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Location:
Nowra ,NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Nowra ,NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
The Rainy City
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sat, 18 May 2002 07:00
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RA23 celicas have the W50 box.
It seems RA65s have W58s as well, i remember seeing it on the plate of my RA65 coupe.
cheers
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Mon, 03 June 2002 01:15
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I dont know if you'd be able to tell the difference between the two boxes from just that picture. Externally, they almost look identical.
That site you are referring to has the maximum power that the boxes came out with from factory. Both of the boxes have proven they can handle a lot more than stock.
Mind you, I think I'd give it a better chance of living behind a 300kW 3SGTE than a 300kW 1JZGTE or something. Torque is the killing factor here...
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Mon, 03 June 2002 01:30
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I would have thought Toyota used the W58 in later engines because of the ratios, not the power-handling. W55 has a lower top speed and shorter ratios and might just be silly in a monster engine.
FWIW My RA65 came with (if anyone cares; highly unlikely)
Trans:
aluminum-cased W55
weight: 35kg
reverse 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
-4.091 3.566 2.056 1.384 1.000 0.850
Diff:
F372
7.5" ring gear diam
3.583 ratio
2 pinion gears
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Mon, 03 June 2002 02:03
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Yeah, take a look at the gearing and weight for the W57 vs. the W58. They weigh the same, and have every gear the same bar 5th where on the W58 its further overdriven.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 00:26
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Thank you for putting this back up Ed 
When people say that the W58 is stronger (lets exclude the 2JZ model one), other than the steel sandwich plate, can anyone tell me exactly the differences, not just that they've *heard* it's stronger?
What are the common failures in the boxes, and wouldn't these most likely be the same for all of them, I haven't heard of anyone breaking a W58 in a different way to a W57?
Sorry, this is my just woken up ramblings, but it got me curious, there is so little the different from what I can tell, and I can't see how just having a steel sandwich plate (which you could just swap could you not?) can make a box stronger.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 13:54
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I'll just bump this for the weekday people tomorrow 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:01
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franky...
imho id say the the upgraded steel sandwich plate makes a significant difference to box strength. the sandwich plate contains the gear shaft mounts and bearings, and is one of the only things holding the shafts 'together', stopping them from separating from each other under high load (which is exactly what the shaft gears try to do to each other)... thus having this plate made of steel, as opposed to alloy, allows MUCH greater sepration loads to be applied to the shaft before their mountings in the sandwich plate yield...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:06
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...so....if you replaced the alloy sandwich plate on the W57 with a steel one, you'd effectibely have something just as strong?
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:07
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yep
this is assuming that the shaft sizes and bearings are otherwise idendical...
then again, if you had a steel sandwhich plate, it obviously came out of a w58 (or w59) - so why wouldnt you be using that?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:10
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I'm talking theoretically here  Since when is it only you gets to ponder useless stuff because you can?
I'm just wondering about all this stuff for when I try to flog off my W57 to some bogan for his V8
Oh, and don't forget to send that stuff tomorrow (I know it's off topic, but you're not on ICQ)
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:28
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Mon, 09 February 2004 01:10 |
I'm talking theoretically here Since when is it only you gets to ponder useless stuff because you can?
Oh, and don't forget to send that stuff tomorrow (I know it's off topic, but you're not on ICQ)
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since when do i ponder useless stuf...
like the 1mzfe, or the 3mzfe, or the 3sgte or the m70 blah blah blah...
and yeah, thanks for the reminder - i had forgotten.
ON TOPIC - yes you could use any of the above points to win over the bogan v8 buyer..
I might aso bring up at this point my personal doubt on the much publicised 'fact' that "ALL w58's had steel sandwich plates". more than 3 people i know know - myself included - when pulling apart a ma61 with w58 comp plates, have discovered ALLOY sandwich plates. now i know the box I pulled out was original (have logs from past owners (2 of), and the ratios correspond to w58 (not w57)... so im a little confused to say the least...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:31
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I've also heard people say the same thing and as you said, why would you retrofit an alloy one!?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:33
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theoretically? (for conclusion, scroll down)
imho, most ppl will dump the clutch once or twice, if not more often. the shock loading at the base of the teeth while doing this is what kill sprobably 95+% of boxes. it takes only a SINGLE over-load event to initiate a crack at the base of the tooth, usually starting from machining marks.
the hardest thing is to get the crack started. once it has started, all it takes is either a few more overloads, or just lots of high load cycles from spirited driving (ie not clutch dumps or flat changes), and the teeth will break off.
bearings are immensely strong! check out the load ratings of the bearings of the size used in gearboxes. i would be guessing they can take a tonne or two of force, which is more than will be generated by the gears pushing each other away.
while it's tru that steel will have a higher tensile strength than alloy, the difference may not be that huge relative to the magnitude of loads we are talking about here.
i'd venture a guss that the alloy has a tensile strength of around 100-300MPa, and the steel maybe 300-500MPa. to cause the shafts to move further away from each other by elastically deforming the snadwich plate i think is unlikely (but possible?)
i do think you would have more luck bending the shafts tho. again, this is more likely to cause a tooth overload situation due to 'not nice' loading angles on the teeth when the shaft bends...
anyway, i'd love to see some pictures of broken gearboxes (WIFTT  ).
for reference, here's a tooth of one of my K boxes. the tooth has cracked almost halfway thru by fatigue before finally breaking!! all due to flatchanging
so, the moral of the story is:
if you treat the gearbox bad, even once, you can drastically shorten it's life, even in low power situations.
if you are nice to it, it will last a lot longer.
if you really want to make it last, get a set of dogbox gears made
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:37
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stew... i wasnt thinking so much of the purely lateral load of the shaft on the bearing and sandwich plate, rather i was thnking of the where the shaft enters the plate as the fulcrum of rotation, resulting from force applied at a distance (ie at a gear along the shaft) resulting in a torque around said fulcrum.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:52
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ahh k.
in that case i'd think that the bearings have enough play in them to acommodate a few degrees of shaft bending before affecting the plate itself. the alloy plate will deflect before the steel one, no doubt, but depends if you can induce a situation which results in bending loads on the plate, before anything else breaks?
hmm, i confess i have not seen the internals of the W box, but if it is anything like the K box, with the input and mainshaft on the same axis, and the mainshaft only supported at one end, and bearing between main and input shaft... it would be possible to fuxor things up nicely.
if it's like the T series, where the mainshaft is supported directly with bearings in two places... less likely?
i guess what i'm thnking is that the bearings will have more free play in them than the amount of shaft, sandwich plate, or case deflection you could possibly induce?
we need some real life failures of W boxes from high power apps, and not just second gear we know how that happens (well the teeth at least)
Cya, Stewart
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:55
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If you think about it from the other aspect, the box is also attached to the alloy case is it not? Couldn't the differences in flexing between that and the steel plate cause hypothetical problems of their own? Okay, this is nit-picking, but you get what I mean.
As oldcorollas said though, we really need to see what happened broken W5X boxes to see how they really broke.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 14:58
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Mon, 09 February 2004 01:55 |
As oldcorollas said though, we really need to see what happened broken W5X boxes to see how they really broke.
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precisely - this is all pissing in the wind without some kind of evidence for or against any of these ideas.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 15:03
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so start collecting and in about 4 or 5 weeks when i finish my PhD, send me some broken bits to analyse 
Cya, Stewart
ps, i'll also get that 4AGZE piston thing done then too
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Sun, 08 February 2004 23:57
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I have a broken second-gen W58 sitting in my garage right now. Three teeth are missing from 3rd gear, more than likely a result of flat-changing at 7000rpm and maximum boost. No evidence of damage to the bearings, shafts or plate.
Not sure if that's very useful, but there you go!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Mon, 09 February 2004 00:19
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That'll do it Whats the likelihood that the exact same thing would've happened to a W57 or even an earlier W58 given the situation?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Mon, 09 February 2004 08:50
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I'll let you know when my W57 snaps... I'm sure it can't be too much longer!
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Seattle area, USA
Registered:
June 2002
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 14 April 2004 12:51
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whats the strength of a W50 box?
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Location:
Malaysia,Kuala Lumpur
Registered:
July 2002
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 Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 14 April 2004 14:27
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Ahh guys, just that i can understand the whole topic better,
Will someone please define 'Flatchanging' for me pleassseeeeee 
cheers
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 14 April 2004 15:18
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| dispatcher wrote on Wed, 14 April 2004 22:27 |
Ahh guys, just that i can understand the whole topic better,
Will someone please define 'Flatchanging' for me pleassseeeeee
cheers
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Hit redline in a gear, clutch in, slam into next gear, dump clutch, with you accelerator barely leaving the floor
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Location:
Seattle area, USA
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Wed, 14 April 2004 19:33
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Not alot. I've munched 2 with a mostly stock 18rg. But both had high milage on them when i got them. The last one i had lasted till i sold the car.
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 12:04
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I am looking for a W box to suit a approx 200kw 4A engine, I dont want the extra weight of the larger boxes if i can avoid it, do you guys think the W55 is a good choice? Its for a sprinter so the ratios might be good for it too.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 12:17
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A W55/57/58 are all going to be a fine choice for a 200kW 4A. Nothing bigger required.
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 12:21
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thanks, I want to go for the lighter more risky option of the W55 because i heard running the W57 feels like the engine has a 20kg flywheel compared to when its running a T50. Buts if thats how it is then I accept it.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 12:27
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thats a load of crap....
weigh a steel plated w58 vs an alloy plater 57, there is VERY MINIMAL difference.
Do you enjoy pulling out drivelines? If not, just put the 58 in!
w58 - r154 - now there is a serious difference there!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 12:30
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I said any of them will be fine, as a) they all weigh basically the same, but also, because the torque of a 200kW 1.6l 4A isn't going to be enough to worry any of them.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 12:32
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i wasnt having a poke at you jcmf
Yes the torque of a mighty 4a wont smash too many of the w5' series unless flat changing occurs
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 12:37
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nope no flat changing is going to happen here. I guess I will start looking at Coronas with the picture in my hand. Thanks guys
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 12:41
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no, look at celicas and supras.
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 12:43
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celicas it is (cheaper!!)
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Location:
Seattle area, USA
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Thu, 17 June 2004 22:48
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the W55 is just as strong as the W58 early verison.
plus you'll have the benifit of a lower 1st and 2nd gear.
That will help you get into the power band quicker.(like the stock 3tgte) Especially with an A series engine..
W55's have been known to hold 390rwhp R series engines here in the states.. running 11.3's with 1.60 60fts.
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Fri, 18 June 2004 19:02
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my 88 hilux has a w56
but i broke the reverse shaft in 2 on a datsun (now nissan) pickup by dropping the clutch from a standing start at high revs in reverse
downey off road says a 350 chevy's torque will waste the w tranny's 2nd gear/shaft
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Location:
Seattle area, USA
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Fri, 18 June 2004 20:38
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any tranny will break if it's beat on.
W58's have been known to hold 500ftlbs in drag supras here in the states. Yes eventually they will break but some had lasted the entire season to.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Mon, 21 June 2004 11:47
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ive got a auto 7MGTE in my soarer. looking at slappin a manual in it
now is the W58 pretty much my only choice here? coz im having a pretty hard time finding one. could i go for a W55 or even a W50? the cars all stock and i dont intend on pushing it hard. no flat changes, no clutch dumping.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Mon, 21 June 2004 11:53
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An R154 would be a better option, if you get one from an MA70 Supra it should all just bolt right in to your car.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Strength of W58 gearbox
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Mon, 21 June 2004 12:04
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And i have a bellhousing for a 7mgte to an r154 if you find a box out of a jza70/ one without a bellhousing
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