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Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
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HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Thu, 15 July 2004 19:41
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I'm doing a 3SGE/W58 swap, and I'm going to turbo the f**k out of it, but someone (with a bunch of indycar motors sitting in the background) put the scare into me that I should be doing a 3SGE/R154 swap because I'll probably end up twisting a W58...
This begs the questions:
What's the practical HP/Torque limit for roadracing a W58?
What's the practical HP/Torque limit for roadracing a R154?
My targeted HP is 500HP at the crank. I've got a 2-plate Quartermaster clutch that will hold 600+ lb/ft of torque, and the rest of the motor will be built accordingly.
I only have a bellhousing for a W series, and I don't fancy the time involved in making a new bellhousing for a R154...
I suppose that begs another question - would people be interested in buying a R154 bellhousing if one were made?
Thanks in advance for all of your opinions, insights, advice, criticisms, or even just snide heckling!!!
[Updated on: Thu, 15 July 2004 19:51]
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Thu, 15 July 2004 23:31
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I'd be very surprised if you broke a W58 behind a 2 litre engine, even if it does have 500hp. That's a lot of power but it's torque that kills gearboxes.
FWIW my W58 was quite happy behind a 400hp 2JZ-GTE for almost a year, and it only broke when I started flogging it (ie 2nd->3rd flatchanging on the freeway = fewer teeth on 3rd gear).
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Fri, 16 July 2004 05:55
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So a W58, should happily supports a "BPU" 1JZGTE? (Exhaust, 11psi)??
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Fri, 16 July 2004 07:17
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I'd Agree, just don't flog it, eg flat changes. Norbie would still be using his 2JZ W58 if it didn't cop the flogging it did.
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Location:
Seattle area, USA
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Fri, 16 July 2004 07:55
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3S & W58. good match. no worries there..
been known to hold 400+ ft lbs in a drag supra.
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Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Fri, 16 July 2004 08:45
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what about shifting at 9000rpm? Do the W58 syncro bits handle the rotational speed, or do they start to get buggy and crash?
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Location:
Seattle area, USA
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Fri, 16 July 2004 09:12
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well the W55/58's have been known to handle 8000rpms
behind 2TG/3T hybrids, 18RG..
same goes for a R150 box..on a built to hilt 8500rpm+ 13.2sec 1/4mile all motor 18RG 2371cc
| 510rob wrote on Fri, 16 July 2004 01:45 |
what about shifting at 9000rpm? Do the W58 syncro bits handle the rotational speed, or do they start to get buggy and crash?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Sat, 17 July 2004 09:48
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| 510rob wrote on Fri, 16 July 2004 05:41 |
I'm doing a 3SGE/W58 swap, and I'm going to turbo the f**k out of it, but someone (with a bunch of indycar motors sitting in the background) put the scare into me that I should be doing a 3SGE/R154 swap because I'll probably end up twisting a W58...
This begs the questions:
What's the practical HP/Torque limit for roadracing a W58?
What's the practical HP/Torque limit for roadracing a R154?
My targeted HP is 500HP at the crank. I've got a 2-plate Quartermaster clutch that will hold 600+ lb/ft of torque, and the rest of the motor will be built accordingly.
I only have a bellhousing for a W series, and I don't fancy the time involved in making a new bellhousing for a R154...
I suppose that begs another question - would people be interested in buying a R154 bellhousing if one were made?
Thanks in advance for all of your opinions, insights, advice, criticisms, or even just snide heckling!!!
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500hp out of a turbo 3sge ay? how much it costing you? WHat mods have u done to the motor to try and get this?
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Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Sat, 17 July 2004 10:39
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Mr. Robson,
If you don't believe that I will ever make 500HP, great, but do you have an answer for my transmission question, or are you too special to help out here?
With respect to my motor,
* not going into a street car.
* not going to run pump fuel.
* not going to idle very well.
* not going to make power below 4000rpm
* not going to last long between rebuilds.
I bought eight 1000cc/min Bosch Motorsport injectors from Cosworth UK for $650 Cdn - was that low-cost? not at all, but it was definitely cheap for those parts...
Was it a good deal to spend $1100 Cdn on the comprehensive Ferrea valvetrain pack with all bits? Yep, here again you have to define what is low cost and what is cheap...
I have a 3SGE, and a T61 turbocharger (that's a pretty big one if you are unfamiliar with spec sheets and compressor tables), and a bunch of stuff that goes between the two to make them work as a team...
Anyway, I didn't come here to defend myself, my statements, nor to lie about HP targets; I came here to ask for people's experience with W-58 and R-154 transmissions.
Your moniker suggests that you've got a V8 in a MA61 - what transmission are you using? how much torque are you making? how much horsepower does the transmission stand up to? Do you have anything to offer?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Sat, 17 July 2004 15:17
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ill answer some of this for him considering id say he is asleep
he was going to use a w58 but decided to go with an r154 instead
he doesent know what the car is going to make power or torque wise yet, but alot!(though some would say less than a modded 2jz  )
his car isnt finished.. hopefully soon.. shotgun first friend passenger ride
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Location:
Seattle area, USA
Registered:
June 2002
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Location:
cronulla
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Sat, 17 July 2004 21:17
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for what its worth i had a 2JZGE W58 behind my 1 J with big turbo's etc only about 280rwhp though and ive used one behind my other 1 J also, never missed a beat lasted and as far as i know are still in action behind the two affoermentioned motors, they are good gearboxes, lighter than an r154 and alot more pleasant to drive with especially behind a 1J at least, i found shifts were not as fast or smooth with the R154 which is alot more like a truck gearbox, The 2JZGE gearbox from 93-98 n\a supra is definately the W58 to go for im told they are much stronger, and they seem to last with reasonable power, the main differance to old w58 i noticed when the covers were off was doubble synchro's on 2nd and 3rd different ratios and a different setup on 5th gear. I have heard of W58's stripping gearsets, but ive also heard similar of R154 but then again its amazing what people can do if they can't drive, the thrust bearing (think thats what its called) just inside the cover on the input shaft seems to be a weak point for these gearboxes, at least that's what the guy that repairs my boxes said, he has apparently had many of these boxes from high power aplications with this bearing completely boned, hope this is at least a little helpful, i'm not that much a guru on boxes.
cheers
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Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Sun, 18 July 2004 01:28
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Awesome info - exactly the kind of info I've been asking for.
I understand the R154 has an inherent weakness with it's stock bearing retainer plate distorting under high load - the 4x4 crowd that use the R150 and R151 have a machined steel replacement piece to solve that, but I dind't know anything about the W58 having the same problem.
From what everyone has mentioned, I think I'll keep going on my W58 conversion and see what kind of abuse it takes.
My next step is to make a proper flywheel...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Sun, 18 July 2004 07:06
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You will be very unluckly to experience problems with the W58 unless you plan brutal gear changes or launches on slicks - even then it should still hold up for a while.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Sun, 18 July 2004 13:18
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| 510rob wrote on Sat, 17 July 2004 20:39 |
Mr. Robson,
If you don't believe that I will ever make 500HP, great, but do you have an answer for my transmission question, or are you too special to help out here?
With respect to my motor,
* not going into a street car.
* not going to run pump fuel.
* not going to idle very well.
* not going to make power below 4000rpm
* not going to last long between rebuilds.
I bought eight 1000cc/min Bosch Motorsport injectors from Cosworth UK for $650 Cdn - was that low-cost? not at all, but it was definitely cheap for those parts...
Was it a good deal to spend $1100 Cdn on the comprehensive Ferrea valvetrain pack with all bits? Yep, here again you have to define what is low cost and what is cheap...
I have a 3SGE, and a T61 turbocharger (that's a pretty big one if you are unfamiliar with spec sheets and compressor tables), and a bunch of stuff that goes between the two to make them work as a team...
Anyway, I didn't come here to defend myself, my statements, nor to lie about HP targets; I came here to ask for people's experience with W-58 and R-154 transmissions.
Your moniker suggests that you've got a V8 in a MA61 - what transmission are you using? how much torque are you making? how much horsepower does the transmission stand up to? Do you have anything to offer?
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Im using an r154, and my hp expectation is undisclosed
PS im glad your honest as to those reasons about your motor re its purpose.
And how the hell do you know my last name.
Edit: i also had to upgrade to a billet steel flywheel because i was told id have too much power and RPM...with a cast one i risk killing myself..literally. 
[Updated on: Sun, 18 July 2004 13:23]
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Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Sun, 18 July 2004 21:43
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awwww SHIT - I just wrote a reply, then mistakenly erased it somehow... damn computers!!!
Blake, your real name is nested in your profile; I was looking to see what car you had listed, so I could get an idea of what you were working on. So I just threw your name up there. Don't worry about it - I'm on the other side of the globe, and I'm just another clown like the rest of them...
As for a flywheel, I agree; cast iron just plain wrong for high performance, and skip right past the various aluminum alloys; the necessary friction face is a big pissing contest of silly fiddle-fuss hardware. The proper material to use is 4140 Cro-Mo low alloy steel. Buy a short bar-cut of "4140 HTSR" (heat treated & stress relieved) and you can't go wrong; it is available as round bar in increments like 10, 11, 12, 13", and most suppliers can cut you off a 1" thru 3" piece no problem. It comes tempered as spring-range martensite at Rc 28-32, and it holds tolerance very well when being machined. As long as you don't have an interrupted cut, machining it is not a problem. When you see reference to a "chrome molybdenum" flywheel, this is the material they are referring to.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Sun, 18 July 2004 22:18
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I always thought the R154 was a stronger gearbox than the 2J W58, hence the price differences.
Then reading the current ZOOM magazine last night, someone was asking what was better, and Martin Donnon (I think) replied "Stay away from R154 Gearboxes", I was quite surprised and shocked!!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Mon, 19 July 2004 00:26
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i think thats based on shift quality rather than anything else. all reports say r154 is stronger and it makes sense too
ive pointed this out in another thread
7mge-w58
7mgte-r154
1jzgte-r154
2jzge-w58
they used the r154 on all the later turbo cars(bar on new supras with the v160)
that would signify to me that toyota thought it the stronger box themselves
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Mon, 19 July 2004 00:47
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Only because he broke a trust washer, had a winge about it in Zoom and think he fixed it by putting in a Landcruiser item... pfft. I bet he broke it again because the landcruiser item is infact the same part from toyota. eg just as crap. If he put a "unobtainium" custom washer it would have been ok.
I broke that part 2 times 4 years ago for me to work out that the washer is shit. It's the only let down on the box. However the R154 is still an awesome box, sheer TQ it can cope with is outstanding. Just don't treat it like shit. I think once you start getting into bigger clutches you really should get the Thrust washer replaced while your at it and it's better to tear down a working box and replace that item before it breaks than it costing you a 1st gear cluster.. I brought a 1st gear cluster new from Toyota Australia, last one in Australia at the time, $550 just for 1st gear. Because the washer breaks apart it rolls around inside the 1st gear cluster and messes it up nicely also taking out the rear bearing.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Mon, 19 July 2004 00:53
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im running just a standard duty daikin clutch atm and its doing fine.
do u think i should do thrust washer some time?
and what should i really get it made out of
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Mon, 19 July 2004 01:05
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Well if I get another car with a R154 in it, I'd wait till I got a Button or Multi-plate clutch before getting a thrust washer made out of cromoly or forged steel alloy. Or just put in a V160.. 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Mon, 19 July 2004 01:27
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im only 19 atm.. so broke.. v160 isnt an option
i payed for my conversion with much saved money and 5 grand loan(but mostly own money)
my normal duty clutch hasnt slipped or anything yet
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Mon, 19 July 2004 04:52
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Standard clutch should be OK as long as you don't have sticky tyres/lots of traction. Being a gz10 soarer you don't have as much weight to push off the line, and it doesn't sound like you have lots of traction yet!! Essentially you'll break the weakest link first, so if you improve the traction you might need to upgrade the clutch (if it slips).
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Mon, 19 July 2004 05:23
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ivegot dunlop fm901's(which are sticky as hell)but hard suspension...no weight
so yes, traction is hard to come by
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Mon, 19 July 2004 08:20
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Get some 31x10.5R15's like me, then traction wont be an issue and youll kill the clutch soon enough. Youll probably have to pump the gaurds out a bit.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Mon, 19 July 2004 09:36
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i just bought an 11" clutch and pressure plate...me thinks the r154 is here to stay 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Tue, 20 July 2004 10:17
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I'm just wondering if you willing to spend alot of money of your engine why you would then skimp on the gearbox?
This car is obviously not going to be street driven so its either going to be a circuit car or drag car. Why not find a box that would better suit either one of these applications?
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Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
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Location:
Forrestfield, WA
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: HP Torque Limit for early W58 and/or R154 Transmissions
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Wed, 21 July 2004 01:54
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I run a R154 with a exceedy 9 puck ceramic clutch and 2.5 tonne pressure plate. I had gearbox refurbished before i put it in december last year. They apparently put new 'beefier' bearings in and replaced the 2nd and 3rd syncros, and cleaned up reverse.
The gearbox goes well, but has started to make noise when out of gear after doing motorsport when its hot. Im using Redline MTL which i was told to USE OR ELSE by the place that rebuilt the box... i was thinking maybe go up to Redline Shockproof or something else... any recommendations?
(cars only putting out max 280ps at the wheels so i doubt i couldve damaged anything in there... only done maybe 6,000 or 7,000 kms since putting it in)
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