| Author | Topic |
|---|
Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
|
 Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Tue, 03 August 2004 13:34
|
 |
Was flicking through a copy of the latest "Speed" mag tonight (August issue, 014) and saw something that caught my eye - a modified Celica GT-Four.
Page 82 reveals that this ST185 (Carlos Sainz edition) has been worked through the roof... now equipped with an ST205 donk which was custom-stroked out to 2.4L! Has a T-58 turbo on it, and pulls something like 269kw at all four paws.   This is one serious bit of gear, and definitely worth the read if you're looking to work-up a 3S-GTE. 
Does anyone know the guy that did the work? His name's Nathan Green (haha, no relation..) and he lives in QLD. Seen the car? 
|
|
|
Location:
Wahroonga
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Tue, 03 August 2004 14:53
|
|
|
thx for the info. I was thinking about stroking mine to a 2.2l or 2.3l, well somewhere in there about a 10-15% capacity increase.
|
|
|
Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Tue, 03 August 2004 14:57
|
|
Only thing is I don't know where he got the stuff from - it's all "custom"....  But he did get the turbo from Rigoli's. Also I remember he was running a full custom plenum too.
|
|
|
Location:
Wahroonga
Registered:
June 2003
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Tue, 03 August 2004 15:04
|
|
Well there isn't alot of custom parts required to stroke the engine, Crack, con rods and while ur there go forged pistons too.
I'll probally go somewhere like BD4's for new turbo, its where my box came from.
|
|
|
Location:
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Registered:
August 2004
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Tue, 03 August 2004 19:25
|
|
5S block + 3S head = 2.1 or 2.2L (depending on overbore) 3SGTE.
very straight forward.
|
|
|
Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Tue, 03 August 2004 21:59
|
|
What kind of power can you look for with a 5S block and the head off a 3S-GTE? And would you use the same turbo for the application? I understand that turbo choice depends on whether you want 'bang' off the mark or top-end legs, but what would be best used for a stroked 3S-GTE?
Those sure are some nice figures for a four-banger... 
|
|
|
Location:
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Registered:
August 2004
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Tue, 03 August 2004 22:16
|
|
well, the 5s/3s combo will jsut give you a 2.1/2 liter 3SGTE, so assume 10% more power than what you're currently making with a flatter torque band.
the manifolds/ancillaries from the 3s head can be carried over, nothgin custom is needed.
|
|
|
Location:
Parramatta
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Tue, 03 August 2004 22:43
|
|
|
there are several stroker kits out there for the 3sgte already made... being the toda stroker kit and the JUN kit. Both are awsome, im sort of kicking myself now that i when i did my rebuild i should have brought this toda kit 7,700 from subzero about 1 year ago. But none the less the car still moves pretty well.
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 02:15
|
|
I doubt that 'nothing custom' will be needed for a 5S/3S combination considering I have been doing/investigating this one myself for a little while now. Seeing as the stroke is 4mm longer with the 5S, the big-end journal is a different size and the rods C-C is the same length - then you a looking at at least custom rods and also 1mm over-sized pistons (different bore size in 5S block, 87mm vs 86mm). Then, even so, if you shorten the rods to get a decent compr. ratio then you have reduced the rod/stroke ratio even further than you already have (with the longer stroke) - this will affect the tuning of the engine and also the longevity (due to added sidewall tresses) of the standard 1mm over-sized pistons (reduction of revability). Also you might want to think about treating the crankshaft as well to make it more crack resistant etc etc.
In short - fiddling with stroked 3SGEs/3SGTEs is not something you want to shortcut on...to build a good reliable engine you will always have to spend big buckeroos.
Also - the real power in an engine is generally restricted by the cylinder head, so adding 10% capacity will probably not add even 5% power if that is the only change made. The added stroke will help with torque (fractionally) but the change in power will be small.
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 02:17
|
|
|
And lastly, some 5S blocks will be incompatible with some 3S heads...so look out on that front too. A general rule of thumb (I think) is that pre 1994 stuff doesn't mix with post 1994 stuff, but I have no details on which engine numbers/head numbers to look out for etc etc so you may want to do some research of your own.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 06:44
|
|
Why would you want to stroke/fuck a nice engine like the 3S? The 3S is a perfect square engine (86mm bore/86mm stroke). The only reason to change this combination is if you were chasing 700+Hp 
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 06:55
|
|
|
Cool1 - maybe because extra capacity is not 'fuck'ing an engine up? An engine being 'square' (bore == stroke) does not imply an optimal configuration.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 07:02
|
|
|
Your the expert.
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
December 2003
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 08:00
|
|
|
ive thought about this before a few times. had a bit of a look around. it really doesnt seem like as much of a nice conversion as the 7af/4ag hybrid. yorue probably alot better of just spending the money on a nice turbo.
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 10:50
|
|
hah - cool1 - I wish I do like a nice square engine myself especially for NA.
Slydar - you are correct, it's probably a bit too much of a bitch for what gain you get out of it. If you cut a few corners and do a dodgy job you can probably get a small gain quite cheaply...but for real power you are probably as well off, or better off, investing in a custom crank shaft.
|
|
|
Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 12:56
|
|
| Quote: |
it's probably a bit too much of a bitch for what gain you get out of it
|
You mean 269kw at all four threads is a small gain?! 
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 20:40
|
|
| RAV-GT4 wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 22:56 |
You mean 269kw at all four threads is a small gain?!
|
Sounds small to me when people on this forum are getting 274kw at the rear wheels with a turbo upgrade.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 20:54
|
|
| Cool1 wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 06:40 |
| RAV-GT4 wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 22:56 |
You mean 269kw at all four threads is a small gain?!
|
Sounds small to me when people on this forum are getting 274kw at the rear wheels with a turbo upgrade.
|
I was thinking that too, people around the net are running fully rebuilt 3S-GTE (86x86) and are easily making 250kW+
this guy is running a stroked out weapon at 2.4L, he should be makeing huge amounts of power. And with a turbo that size, 350kW+ sounds more like it.
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 23:42
|
|
|
Yeah, 269kW would not have come from just boring and stroking the engine...that's for sure. The fact that he is not making more power may actually be because of the changed geometry of the engine not being about to rev as efficiently etc etc.
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Wed, 04 August 2004 23:46
|
|
|
Oh yeah - comparing rear wheel kilowatts to four wheel kilowatts is also a dumb comparision btw - the transmission differences between the two configurations (especially considering you are probably talking about an MR2, right) is so drastic that it is more than likely that the 269kW at all four is much more at the flywheel than the MR2 that puts out 274 at the rear treads. Then of course you have to consider dyno conditions, the type of dyno etc etc.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Thu, 05 August 2004 01:08
|
|
270 at all 4 wheels is damn impressive I think.
Thats 350+ at the flywheel or 500Hp. Pretty good acheivement. Regardless of engine size.
The stroker conversion would add a nice amount of low RPM torque to the car so that it would still be responsive off boost. This is probably the main reason he went for it.
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Thu, 05 August 2004 05:36
|
|
|
considering how much stock gt4s put down I think it's still impresive.
|
|
|
Toymods Club Treasurer
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Thu, 05 August 2004 06:11
|
|
|
I bet that the 5S block doesn't have the nice oil squiters for the piston or higher strength cylinder sleeves.
|
|
|
Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Thu, 05 August 2004 08:11
|
|
If the 3sgte strokers turn out anything like what the u.s. dsm guys do with their mitsubishi 2.0L... its no question if its worth it.
The 2.3/2.4 stokers are built from inexpensive mitsu cores found in sedans. Aftermarket pistons and rods (if you choose that route) are quite affordable.
While guys struggled to get their full wt. 3300 pound street awd cars to run 10sec ETs with the 2.0.... the 2.4 accomplishes that with relative ease. Big benefit is the huge torque improvement and a broad non-peaky powerband. Seen two 10sec street mitsus with ~540 ft-lbs torque at the wheels! Quite impressive for such a small package.
|
|
|
Location:
Alice Springs
Registered:
February 2004
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Thu, 05 August 2004 11:18
|
|
THE PROS AND CONS OF STROKING A 3SGTE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED AND IT
IS REASONABLY EASY TO GO TO 2.1 OR 2.2 BUT NO ONE HAS TOLD US HOW TO GET TO 2.4. I AM AFTER LOW DOWN TORQUE FOR MOTORSPORT APPLICATIO AND THE IDEA OF GOING TO 2.4 APEALS TO ME.
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Thu, 05 August 2004 14:07
|
|
| Quote: |
I bet that the 5S block doesn't have the nice oil squiters for the piston or higher strength cylinder sleeves.
|
Depends what 3S block you are comparing it to - afaik the early ones don't have any stronger cylinder sleeving...as for the oil squirters - I'll have to have a look tomorra
|
|
|
Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Thu, 05 August 2004 21:11
|
|
The U.S. drag racing guys found the limit of the Gen2 SW20 3SGTE blocks to be around 700HP; at that point the block cracks and starts doing strange things. Boo hoo hoo, so limit yourself to a measley 600HP?
The Gen3+ 3SGTE blocks (Caldina blocks et al.) have rectified the weakness (visually anyway), but no one has snapped those blocks yet. Apparently the same casting changes have been applied to the later 5S blocks too.
The 3SGTE oil nozzles are P/N 15790-88381 and cost me $17.48 Cdn each.
The bolts for the oil nozzles are P/N 90110-06003 and cost me $1.38 Cdn each.
Only the 3SGTE model engines have oil nozzles from the factory. The 3SGE did not have them and the 5SFE does not have them. Most people don't bother installing the oil nozzles into a 5S block when the build one up for a high HP 3SG head.
Even if you build a 2.2 5SFE lower end for a 3SG head, it will ultimately be limited in HP by the head's ability to flow (which is high!), but you will shift the torque lower in the RPM band, so if that's the goal, that's the goal...
Check out Pankl/CP pistons part number SC7451 it's a 0.020" overbore forged piston specifically made for 5SFE block and 3SGTE head - no bullshit involved!!!
http://www.cppistons.com/PDF%20Files/CPImport.pdf
|
|
|
Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Thu, 05 August 2004 22:12
|
|
Thanks for the share mate - very informative. 
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Fri, 06 August 2004 00:22
|
|
Man I've been looking for pistons like that for ages!!!
But 0.020" overbore is only .5mm - the 5SFE has 87mm, the 3SGE has 86 - surely there piston/bore clearance would be to hell? Or should I measure the bores more closely...
Oil nozzles would not be req. for an NA engine unless you start going really nuts. Still cheers for the heads up!
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Fri, 06 August 2004 01:26
|
|
Wouldn't it be 0.020" over the 5SFE block? not over the 3SGE block.
So in other words, get a 5S block and clean it up then put those pistons in.
|
|
|
Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Fri, 06 August 2004 01:39
|
|
|
CP Piston P/N SC7451 is 3.445" diameter = 87.503mm = a 5SFE block with a 0.5mm-ish overbore...
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Fri, 06 August 2004 03:01
|
|
Yeah I just put those numbers in myself after I posted - d'oh!
|
|
|
Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Sat, 07 August 2004 06:16
|
|
|
I'd like to know what the stock @wheel-kw figures are for the 3S-GTE in a GT-Four... anyone have that info? Dyno figures perhaps (with little modifications on the car)?
|
|
|
Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Sat, 07 August 2004 07:13
|
|
mine : tired engine - 14psi and minor mods - 115KW atw at the same dyno day we had the suspicios 96awkw from your rav4
Cheers
|
|
|
Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Sat, 07 August 2004 07:17
|
|
|
Have you put yours on the dyno since then (ie. before all the new stuff went in)?
|
|
|
Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Sat, 07 August 2004 07:26
|
|
nope - not yet ..
its got to be dyno tuned when the ECU happens - then i hopefully will have a updated figure ..
Not expecting more than about 140 ish though - still need the better turbo + injectors + fuel pump to start increasing power
|
|
|
Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Sat, 07 August 2004 07:29
|
|
Heheheh... I got ALL that!! You'll probably need a fuel regulator and gauge if you're going to do something like I did with mine (500hp Bosch pump, stock 540cc injectors). 
|
|
|
Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Sat, 07 August 2004 07:32
|
|
Ahh it will come - the 540's are somewhere in the mail atm ..
Fuel pump and Garret BB turbo is next year - when i have a bit more saved up ..
|
|
|
Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Sat, 07 August 2004 07:35
|
|
|
I dare say it's going to be a tough battle on the dyno next year... you, me, 2REVUP (MR.2)... franken-3SGTE award please!!
|
|
|
Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Sat, 07 August 2004 07:41
|
|
frankens only need apply if your utilizing parts from multiple generations or customising whats already there . hehe
There can be only ONE franken - 3sgte
And hmms - i dunno if ill be uber powerful by july next year , but it should give a good run i hope
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
April 2004
|
|
Re: Stroked 3S-GTE!
|
Sat, 07 August 2004 14:48
|
|
im not going to assume i know alot, but from what i thought, stroke the 3S if u want some low down, if ur chasing in excess of 600 though, your best leaving it at square,
the toms top secret ran 2.0 as far as i know
|
|
|
