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Location:
north brisbane
Registered:
September 2003
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racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 01:57
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hey guy i have sum harnesses and want to install them in my ta22, but aparently i have to have the points installed by a pro??anyone have any idea of a price and where i can get em done???i'm in nrth brizzy
thx
JoNo
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 01:58
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engineer should be able to do it
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Location:
north brisbane
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 02:06
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any idea of a price???
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 02:25
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not exactly sure but i think he will tell you that the back seat has to go if your gonna put a harness... but dont quote me on that cause it depends on your engineer and what he wants...
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 02:52
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you could also leave the seat belts in there and have both. maybe you could still keep it as a 4 seater.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 03:52
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| SeptemberSquallIndustries wrote on Mon, 16 August 2004 13:21 |
The harness must be installed to a reinforced anchor point and at close to horizontal from your seat's harness pass-throughs.
This can sometimes be acheived by reinforcing the parcel shelf, or mounting to a roll cage behind the driver or fitting a rear harness brace between the wheel arches, etc. etc.
Mine is temporarily mounted to the factory rear seat anchoring positions, which are of course reinforced to OEM standards but introduce a 45deg deflection in the strap angle. Also means no belts for the rear driver side passenger.
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does that mean you can have the rear seats still in there with a harness??? cause if the harness has to be almost horizontal then wouldnt that interfere with the passenger and therefore he/she couldnt sit there and hence no rear passenger seats...
also you see alot of cars with half cages and their harness mounts are on the cage, thats engineerable isnt it?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 04:25
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my understanding of it is that
harnesses = 2 seater
just think, would you really like to be sitting in the back in an accident with 3in harnesses going across your face?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 04:44
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also you see alot of cars with half cages and their harness mounts are on the cage, thats engineerable isnt it?
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See above:
| Quote: |
acheived by reinforcing the parcel shelf, or mounting to a roll cage behind the driver or fitting a rear harness brace between the wheel arches, etc. etc.
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does that mean you can have the rear seats still in there with a harness??? cause if the harness has to be almost horizontal then wouldnt that interfere with the passenger and therefore he/she couldnt sit there and hence no rear passenger seats
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Yes, there's belts in the way of the passenger behind.
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Location:
Tasmania
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 14:05
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In my old corolla, the rear seat belts bolt to the parcel shelf. So that is 2 factory mounting points avaliable. Plus, towards the center of the parcel shelf, there are some more factory threaded holes for a child restraint or center seatbelt. So in some cases, you can just use the factory holes in the parcel shelf I guess.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 14:10
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Yees, this is correct. I'd have done this, but the there's too great an offset to the side (for rear parcel shelf sash belt mount.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 14:26
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in qld if you use harness it is illegal for anybody to be seated in the rear of the car, so you have to take out the rear belts at least but can leave the seat
a mates torana with roll cage setup he has horizontal bar over parcel shelf and mounts through to the boot floor, engineer approved, you dont need them to do it for you just to approve it and to rivet the blue plate in the engine bay somewhere
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 14:28
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i dont think parcel shelf mounts would be legal anyway if you are talking about the actual shelf made of wood, think about it in accident it would be fucked and so would you, safety first
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 16:05
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thats what im talkin bout 
/end shannon noll 
although the seller dosnt mention, you would still need to get it eng. certified, at the end of the day nobody wants to be defected or injured in a freak wooden parcel shelf to the back of the head incident
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 16:46
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in NSW, you cannot use a harness on the road IF your car has the 'seatbelt ADR' in effect.. ie the one that says you need to have a THREE POINT LAP-SASH belt. if your car has this ADR applicable, then i do not see how an engineer can certify something that explicity contravenes a safety ADR (even if a harness is better)
if your car is pre-ADR's, then it is a grey area, and there is a possibility of being certified.
afaik.
talk to your favourite engineer 
CYa, Stewart
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 17:09
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if you cant get an eng cert. on harnesses in nsw then how is it possibly legal to be using them ?..or is that your point that it is illegal ? 
first you got the fixed speed cameras everywhere and that sucks for you guys, seems you southerners got the raw end of the stick again, least you got the weather to look forward to
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 17:13
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| djbourboncan wrote on Tue, 17 August 2004 03:09 |
if you cant get an eng cert. on harnesses in nsw then how is it possibly legal to be using them ?..or is that your point that it is illegal ?
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basically yes. IF your car MUST (since the ADR applies) have a 3 point lap sash belt. the ADR does not say you can't have additional belts... it might be a matter of finding out specific laws relating to seat belt usage.
ie, ADR says you must have a 3 point belt. so you do.. AND a harness.
law states you must wear a seatbelt, but may not specify exactly which one, and you could argue that a harness is a seatbelt.. possibly...and possibly a safer alternative, even though not technically legal...
i dunno, whatever you want to do 
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 17:52
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8.5 SEAT BELTS AND MOUNTS
8.5.1 Seat belts are mandatory in all seating positions. Inertia reel lap/sash belts are
required for all outboard seating positions and lap belts for centre positions.
Where the construction of the vehicle cannot provide adequate mounting points for
lap/sash belts, lap belts are acceptable.
8.5.2 All seat belts fitted must be new.
8.5.3 When full harness set belts are fitted, they are required to comply with ADR 4/00
or CAMS specifications. Full harness seat belts are not to be installed where there
are rear passenger seats unless special approval is obtained from the registering
authority.
8.5.4 Seat belt anchorage points must be installed in accordance with ADR 5/00.
8.5.5 Seat belts must be connected to the seat belt anchorage with 7/16 or 11mm seat
belt bolts or where required, harness connectors which comply with ADR4/00,
and are designed only for this purpose. A locking device or a nyloc nut must retain
each bolt that attaches to a non-captive nut.
8.5.6 Seat belts must be mounted in a fashion that avoids the likelihood of chafing or
damage to the webbing. Where appropriate, seat belt anchor plates must be able
to pivot as required.
8.5.7 Seat belts are designed to bear upon the bony structure of the body. Lap belts are
to be mounted such that they can be worn low across the front of the pelvis, and
lap/sash belts the pelvis, chest and shoulders, without chafing the wearers neck.
[Updated on: Mon, 16 August 2004 17:57]
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 17:54
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i know my shit 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 16 August 2004 21:08
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3 and 4 point harnesses are legal in NSW for road use but if you are going any more (5/6 point) then you cannot use it for road use and the car would need to be registered as a race car...
also you will find that some engineers wont even engineer 4 point in a street car and would still want it as a race car rego...
race car rego basically means that your car is not a daily driver and you should technically only be driving it on the road when going to and from the mechanic Or to and from the event...
so if your driving through bondi at night in it and a cop pulss you over well.... 
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Location:
north brisbane
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Tue, 17 August 2004 00:05
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so you guys are saying that if i want to put harnesses in i have to loose that bk seats???what about getting the floor reinforced behind the drvers seat and have them go to the floor....?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Tue, 17 August 2004 00:14
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you cannot mount to floor in SYD... pou should check with your motor registry or local engineer for specifics in your state...
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Location:
north brisbane
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Tue, 17 August 2004 00:17
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thx dude...
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Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: racing harness
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Tue, 17 August 2004 00:35
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| djbourboncan wrote on Tue, 17 August 2004 03:54 |
i know my shit
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Crack up post!! Good to see some sources quoted though
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Tue, 17 August 2004 00:54
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with the number of restrictions SYD RTA have we will need an engineers cert to push the car 
***now before anyone starts going off their rocket i know that they have these regulations for our safety so relax.....
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Tue, 17 August 2004 06:03
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| freakincage_com wrote on Tue, 17 August 2004 10:05 |
so you guys are saying that if i want to put harnesses in i have to loose that bk seats???what about getting the floor reinforced behind the drvers seat and have them go to the floor....?
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if you wish to crush your spine, sure think what happens to the belts and you in an accident....
thanks for the info "djbourboncan", whats the reference for the 8.5.x?
i got my info from P.L.Smith (engineer) in Camden, who are seatbelt and restraint specialists (amongst other things.. or used to be anyway).
from "Light vehicle code of practice" Appendix C3, ADR checklist, release No.1, january 1994, "Reasons for Rejection"
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P4, regarding ADR4/-- (and ADR5)
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B. Unless exempted, a lap-sash belt is not provided for any outboard seating position. (5/00, 5/01, 5/02.2.1),(4/00, 4/01.2.1). Exemptions are:
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vii) A harness type seat belt is fitted (this should be avoided where possible).
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it would be very hard to argue that you could not installing a 3 point lap-sash belt, since they are easier to install than a 4 point harness AND were originally fitted in compliance with an ADR. you would need to argue that for some reason you could not avoid installing a harness. one possibility is if a rollcage interfered with their proper operation, but that could also make the cage unsatisfactory...
for a pre-ADR car (such as mine) a lap-sash is not technically required, but it may be deemed that certain personal safety ADR's (such as 4 and 5) are required to be achieved. the COP gives "minimum standards required but where any ADR applies, the ADR takes precedence" even for pre-ADR vehicles.
also remember that even if it is "engineer approved", that does not make it automatically legal
i would be interested if you could give these guys a call
| Quote: |
Address:
Peter L Smith Engineering Pty Ltd
14 Little St
Camden NSW 2570
Australia
Phone: (02) 4655 9440
International callers: 612 4655 9440
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since you 'know your shit' and see what you can talk them around to . see if they will say conclusively if a harness can be legally fitted.
thanks in advance
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Wed, 18 August 2004 06:41
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| freakincage_com wrote on Tue, 17 August 2004 10:05 |
so you guys are saying that if i want to put harnesses in i have to loose that bk seats????
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| djbourboncan wrote on Tue, 17 August 2004 03:52 |
8.5.3 When full harness set belts are fitted, they are required to comply with ADR 4/00
or CAMS specifications. Full harness seat belts are not to be installed where there
are rear passenger seats unless special approval is obtained from the registering
authority.
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you would have to see your engineer about that, as he would have to check out your car, like i said we have gotten away with having back seats before purely for aesthetics and unbolted the rear belts, the engineer modification plate clarified this further with a maximum of two passengers allowed in the car at any time
oldcorollas,
i have checked my information against national guidelines for the construction and modification of street rods in australia, i.e. a car that MUST carry engineer approval to be road registered
and then checked this against nsw regulations for harnesses to see if they differ from qld regulations...they dont, some good news there for anybody wanted to buy a car interstate already with harnesses
http://www.dotrs.gov.au/transreg/vsb/PDF/Street_CO P_sec_8.pdf
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Wed, 18 August 2004 11:23
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| djbourboncan wrote on Wed, 18 August 2004 16:41 |
i have checked my information against national guidelines for the construction and modification of street rods in australia, i.e. a car that MUST carry engineer approval to be road registered
and then checked this against nsw regulations for harnesses to see if they differ from qld regulations...they dont, some good news there for anybody wanted to buy a car interstate already with harnesses
http://www.dotrs.gov.au/transreg/vsb/PDF/Street_CO P_sec_8.pdf
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AIUI, street rods/hotrods have their own set of guidelines, above and beyond those required for normal passenger cars. these guidelines have come about after what... 40 years of negotiation? their guidelines are self-administered, whereas normal passenger cars are still under the control of the RTA.
you can get away with much more for a hotrod.
| Quote: |
8.9
It is recommended that Street Rods be maintained to a higher than average standard, as they are more likely to be noticed by the general public. Each Street Rod is an ambasador for all others. etc
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this is also because they are self-administered. if shoddy rods started appearing, the 'powers that be' might decide to take away their priveledges.
stret rods also operate with restricted rego, adn are not everyday cars, which is another reason their standards are allowed to be a little difference...
i'll call P.Smith and ask tomorrow (if i have time between working and packing )
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Wed, 18 August 2004 12:43
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street rods is applicable as it is not the year of the car or how long the rule has been in place in question, but rather the adr's and install of harness's as most rods didnt even have belts
for light vehicles, i have exhausted all avenues of searching all dept trans for all states, which have a general vague 'consult with engineer if aftermarket belts are installed'...
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/v si/vsi15.pdf
p. smith name is here so he would be able to tell you, good luck, keep us posted, especially if you can prove me wrong
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Thu, 19 August 2004 04:19
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| djbourboncan wrote on Wed, 18 August 2004 22:43 |
street rods is applicable as it is not the year of the car or how long the rule has been in place in question, but rather the adr's and install of harness's as most rods didnt even have belts
p. smith name is here so he would be able to tell you, good luck, keep us posted, especially if you can prove me wrong
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my point was that the hot rod guidelines do not apply for normal passenger cars. they are different requirements altogether. you cannot completely manufacture your own car and register it under hotrod guidelines if it IS NOT a "hotrod" by definition. you would need to register it as an "ICV" which means ALL CURRENT ADR's.
i have spoken to Peter a number of times, and briefly spoke with him again today. i should have an email answer in a couple of days.
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 23 August 2004 05:37
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Stewart,
If a vehicle is Pre 1975 (introduction of ADR 5B) then harness belts can be installed. If the vehicle is post '75 then they cannot. The reason for this being that from ADR 5b onwards a retractable belt must be installed.
regards
Mark Zullo
Peter L Smith Engineering Pty Ltd
14 Little Street, Camden. NSW 2570
Tel 02 4655 9440
Fax 02 4655 8687
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nuf said.. they know their shit
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: racing harness
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Mon, 23 August 2004 07:43
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I am wanting to install some 4 point harnesses but can not seem to find what the rules are for Victoria (if indeed they are any different)
Anyone know a good engineer, or shop that I can chat to in regards to installation etc..
Cheers
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