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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 06:32
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gday all,
i have an opportunity to get hold of a commodore (vn sorta era) V6 3800cc engine and celica 5speed (either w50 or 58) box with adaptor plate, and also has wiring harness simplified. it definitly wouldnt cost me anymore than $2K- max. at the moment it is in my mates datsun dual cab, and f**k does it go, it has plenty of torque. it isnt engineer certified but he has been drivin it round for 10 years at least. fuel wise he reckons it used the same amount as the standard motor seen as he used to have to push it harder to get from a to b. i would like to know how this would go in a celica, in term of getting eng. certified. i know everyone says go the 1g but i dunno these engines are sorta hard to come by seen as im in north qld. on the other hand v6's are everywhere and it seems every1 knows lots about them and how to maximise performance. for now i will stick to my r-gu.
let me know what u think
thanx
brett
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 06:40
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i think i read somewhere that there basically a buick tractor motor, and by no means a performance motor, sure parts and all are cheap to come by, but it's a COMMODORE motor for christs sake! it's up to you mate.. 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 06:45
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you'd have to:
-see how the sump would fit into cross member arrangement
-look at improving your brakes
-get price for custom tailshaft
-price other stuff needed for any kind of ->EFI upgrade (fuel system, cooling, electrics, etc)
-talk to an engineer as i think that maximum legal-sixed engine you can fit is a 3 litre?
how heavy are those engines? as the weight would be an issue for handling.
and how wide are they? i think you might have issues with the headers fouling on the strut towers and possibly the steering rack?
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 06:56
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i think the legal limit in QLD is 2600cc, don't matter about cyls..
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 07:05
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yeah well that engine is in a datsun dual cab (guessing bout 81'?) and the engine bay seems the same size as my ra40, the datsuns have a something like a 2L engine, so they are going to be similar to the 18r-c/g. these v6 motors are really short so im guessing the sump will be okay. i suspect the dato crossmembers are similar to the yota ones seen as they house a similar engine. as for brakes, im pretty happy with mine. apparently commodore v6 engines (referring to old forum(type in "v6 ra40" into search)) are about the same weight as 18r-c/g's. as for tailshaft, i would be using a celica box, no issue there. as for efi etc., the loom is simplified, black labelled, (wot eva its called). i can make surge tanks etc. and the rest should be a swap outta the dato, seen as it is naturally a carby engine, and most of that crap has already been done. most of that simple shit i could do myself anyway.
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 07:08
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quote: i think the legal limit in QLD is 2600cc, don't matter about cyls..
2600cc for what type of car?, or a car that had a xxxx cc engine?
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 07:10
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I think you'll get alot of negative comments here, seeing as most people will regard the installation of a non-toyota engine blasphemy, let alone a "commonwhore/bomadore" engine.
I'm pretty sure its been done, and personally I can't see the results being too bad.
To each their own.
Cheers, Matt
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Location:
Hobart
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 07:13
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dont these engines weigh a shit load?... screw up your handling?
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 07:18
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I think they're about 190kg?
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 07:20
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quote: I think you'll get alot of negative comments here, seeing as most people will regard the installation of a non-toyota engine blasphemy, let alone a "commonwhore/bomadore" engine.
yeah i thought ppl would not go on a non-yota engine conversion.
then again i would not go out of my way to do this conversion but a mate is gettin rid of his dato with this whole setup, and also i love how hard it goes  .
quote:dont these engines weigh a shit load?... screw up your handling?
well they are really short so there wont be that much weight in front of the wheels, and i think???? they are all alloy - correct me if i am rong
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 08:17
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you would be pretty nieve to write off an engine, just because it came out of a popular family car 
Induction: multi-point EFI
Valvetrain: overhead valves, 2 valves / cylinder
Bore x Stroke (mm): 97.0 x 86.0
Compression Ratio: 8.5:1
Max power: 125 kW@4800 RPM
Max torque: 292 Nm@3200 RPM
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 09:04
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does any1 know the weight figures of a 18r-c / 18r-g??
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Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 09:46
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| matt_84 wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 15:18 |
I think they're about 190kg?
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I fail to see how the all iron V6 can weigh that little!
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Location:
Hornsby, N.S.W
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 09:56
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| brett_celicacoupe wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 17:20 |
quote: they are all alloy - correct me if i am rong
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 unless he bagged himself a VZ motor 10 years ago, i dont think so, they are heavy and very old in design, stick with the RG, they are a great motor and pwr can be made with them quite easily!!! 
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
October 2003
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 10:33
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yeah i dunno why i said it was alloy??? but oh well
V6 engine = 435 lbs = 197.73 kg
just need to know the 18r weight figures to compare
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Location:
cobden /vicoria
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 10:48
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Go for it, if it`s legal in your state??...I`ve been for a ride in a RA60 with a 3.8 V6 and it pushed it along pretty well for a daily driver, and for the cost !!!!!!
better on fuel too!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 10:52
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yeah i dont mind the idea of the conversion either. The vp and vr models provide lots of torque also! and cheap as chips to buy..
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 12:24
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| brett_celicacoupe wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 17:08 |
quote: i think the legal limit in QLD is 2600cc, don't matter about cyls..
2600cc for what type of car?, or a car that had a xxxx cc engine?
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that limit is for that model of celica - it only came from the factory with a 2 litre engine, so the largest engine you can put in is a 2.6 litre engine.
so you can put in a 22RE, 1G and 2JZ, but not a 1JZ, or any other engine >2.5 litres - unless you engineer approves it (which is unlikely).
regarding the sump - if you have to shift the engine forward to clear the sump, then you have issues with the gear stick (and where it comes up thru the floor) as well as engine mounts.... not major issues,. but will need suitable engineering.
dunno for weight - 18R are heavy bloody things being 100% cast iron.
cheers,
thechuckster.
[Updated on: Sat, 28 August 2004 12:25]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 12:45
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| thechuckster wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 20:24 |
that limit is for that model of celica - it only came from the factory with a 2 litre engine, so the largest engine you can put in is a 2.6 litre engine.
so you can put in a 22RE, 1G and 2JZ, but not a 1JZ, or any other engine >2.5 litres - unless you engineer approves it (which is unlikely).
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I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you mean that the other way around with the 1JZ and 2JZ Having said that though, the rules are different for a NA and a turbo engine are they not, even in QLD? I'd be interested to know what the maximum NA engine you could stick in one would be.
| thechuckster wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 20:24 |
dunno for weight - 18R are heavy bloody things being 100% cast iron.
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Err, they have an alloy head too. They weigh probably about as much if not more than a 1G, so they probably weigh more than the old Holden V6.
| V8_MA61 wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 18:52 |
yeah i dont mind the idea of the conversion either. The vp and vr models provide lots of torque also! and cheap as chips to buy..
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They may make *ok* torque down low, but overall they make a pathetic amount of torque for their size. They do have weight going for them, Holden specify the weight of them as only 10kg heavier than an Alloytec, which is ~165kg in itself. They have simplicity on their side. Still, that torque is nasty.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 12:46
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Oh, and lets not even go into the fact that they are horrible rattly little engine right up until the outgoing version which was the smoothest.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 17:02
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 22:45 |
| thechuckster wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 20:24 |
that limit is for that model of celica - it only came from the factory with a 2 litre engine, so the largest engine you can put in is a 2.6 litre engine.
so you can put in a 22RE, 1G and 2JZ, but not a 1JZ, or any other engine >2.5 litres - unless you engineer approves it (which is unlikely).
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I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you mean that the other way around with the 1JZ and 2JZ Having said that though, the rules are different for a NA and a turbo engine are they not, even in QLD? I'd be interested to know what the maximum NA engine you could stick in one would be.
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sorry about that, must have been confused for a minute...i was thinking about NA engines actually...
max engine capacity is like most other states - a multiple of capacity of factory-supplied engines... from memory, my RA40 could only go up to 2.5 litres... i'll have to find more paperwork to confirm this, but it explains why most celica's are only running with 2T, 3T, 3S, 18RG, 1G.... and the few 1J and 2J iunstalls that i've seen are in RA60's as they came with 2.2 litre engines from factory.
Turbo limit is lower (different multiplier)... and i am sure this is part of an earlier thread but it's 3am and i'm too lazy to do a search.
| Quote: |
| thechuckster wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 20:24 |
dunno for weight - 18R are heavy bloody things being 100% cast iron.
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Err, they have an alloy head too. They weigh probably about as much if not more than a 1G, so they probably weigh more than the old Holden V6.
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actually, the 18RG had alloy head, my humble 18R is all cast iron.... with intake/exhaust manifolds and turbos attached, the 1G feels similar weight to my 18R completed block/head.
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Location:
Rocklea qld
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sat, 28 August 2004 23:50
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Its not worth the effort. I have a vr and its gets beaten by vk's etc all the time. and since the engine has been in yoru mates car 10 years its prolly been flogged. Your better off just using a 202 and chuck on some extractors and a holley and commodore 4 speed which may line up to your tail shaft. since i know the auto trimatic gearboxes line up. Then theres no wiring for the ecu etc. Its a smaller engine so will be closer to legal and it will go prolly harder then the a 3.8 v6
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 05:10
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something is wrong with yours ben if it gets beaten by vks..my brothers vp hauled ass!
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 05:33
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i was told i could get one of the 3.8 V6 commadore engines in my RA60 and it would only cost me $4k from this dude in moree this is including tha engineer cert coz he does it himself
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 05:35
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yeah cos u can buy the motors for $400 
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 05:57
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dont mention economy of them lol...the toyotas are a lot more so
Shame you cant put a v8 in it like me..displacement is too big..
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 06:01
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haha yeah it would be like havin a 18r-gtte in a wheelchair lol
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 06:07
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| V8_MA61 wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 15:05 |
yeah cos u can buy the motors for $400
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ROFL...
You are getting ripped off, the boat anchor place sells them for fuckall, i hear they stop ships quite well!
For get about the buick crap, if you wanna go holden grab yourself a 186 or a 179 with triple SU carbs, my mate has one in his LJ torana and it goes like the clappers, short stroke means high revs
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Location:
Dandenong Ranges, VIC
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 06:36
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mabe to keep things all toyota, you could drop in a Lexcen V6
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 06:40
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| greenta22 wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 16:36 |
mabe to keep things all toyota, you could drop in a Lexcen V6
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lol i spose it does have a "toyota" badge. Wonder if that would be allowed to compete at the nats??
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Location:
Melbourne, Victoria
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 09:38
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Has anyone done this before? My mate keeps telling me it'll be an awesome conversion for my TA22...but I beg to differ.
If you have everything you need, why not go for it? I don't like the idea, but you'll be one of very few with that motor in their Celica, you'll be the most original bloke around!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 09:57
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| V8_MA61 wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 16:10 |
| greenta22 wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 16:36 |
mabe to keep things all toyota, you could drop in a Lexcen V6
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lol i spose it does have a "toyota" badge. Wonder if that would be allowed to compete at the nats??
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ROFL go for it, just hijak every thread you can buddy untill they let you compete!!!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 10:28
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| Allan wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 21:57 |
Apparently the average life of the new v6's is around 20hours at the moment before they are doing exactly like the VN series one and self adding vent holes to the block
Allan
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Considering Holden isn't the first one to be using the engine, and I've never heard of it before, I'd like to know where this hearsay came from...
We really need Michael to comment.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:04
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 20:28 |
| Allan wrote on Sat, 28 August 2004 21:57 |
Apparently the average life of the new v6's is around 20hours at the moment before they are doing exactly like the VN series one and self adding vent holes to the block
Allan
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Considering Holden isn't the first one to be using the engine, and I've never heard of it before, I'd like to know where this hearsay came from...
We really need Michael to comment.
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yes, it is afterall another buick motor!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:14
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What are you talking about dude? I'm talking about the fact Isuzu has already put a variant of the Alloytec in some of its cars...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:16
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and i was referring to the 3.6L motor thats being used in buicks
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:18
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so much for australian ingenuity
I was under the impression that motor was our own design
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:19
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nope
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:30
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| V8_MA61 wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 20:16 |
and i was referring to the 3.6L motor thats being used in buicks
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Umm, what Buick car uses the HFV6 dude? Methinks you have some wires crossed. The only American car to currently use it is a Cadillac.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:35
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i asked a boss mechanic that is the head of a holden service department at a holden dealership briefly, and he said it was used in the buicks
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:44
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Since when has a mechanic been the most knowledgable person in the world? It is *going* to be used in an upcoming model, but it's not currently used in any Buick model, go check their model range. They are still using the old 3.8l engine and variants of it.
I still wanna know where this hearsay about them being unreliable came about...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:49
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Mis-read the question or mis-answered it
The first Buick model to get it appears to be the new LaCrosse.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:51
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oops i meant mis-heard
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:53
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| V8_MA61 wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 20:48 |
It is a buick design is what he specifically said to me, sorry.. i told a fib!
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Do yourself a favour and don't listen to this guy too much. If Buick designed it, they would use it. As it stands, they will be about the 5th manufacturer to use it, that just doesn't make sense does it? For the record, methinks you should have a look who really did design it. The only thing Buick designed was the cast-iron lump afflicting the previous Commode and that was from the dark ages.
Seriously dude, you're a nice bloke, but have some really mis-informed people around you.
[Updated on: Sun, 29 August 2004 12:53]
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:55
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but why, just because they designed it, do they have to use it 1st? wouldnt it be nice to sell a design ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 12:58
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 20:53 |
For the record, methinks you should have a look who really did design it.
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Just do it and stop being a little bitch.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 13:11
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3006039a2021,0 0.html
i rest my case. About 1/2 page down
quote:
"Already Cadillac and Buick use Alloytec engines, and before long such names as Alfa Romeo, Saab, Opel and Vauxhall will join the throng, with both inline mounted and transverse versions of the Holden-built unit."
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 13:18
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ok so maybe the 3.6 version isnt used in buicks. I cant be assed looking more. But the 3.6L version is obviously based on this Alloytech invented by buick.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 13:29
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Well there you go, one of the Buick 4WD's uses one, interesting. I'd still like you to show me something that says that it was Buick who designed the engine...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Sun, 29 August 2004 13:38
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i cant be assed quite frankly. Sorry for hujacking thread with all this crap matey!
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Mon, 30 August 2004 00:35
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tell me more about the lexcen V6!!! will these engines bolt into a bombadore. if so they will bolt in with the adaptor plate of the buitec to the celica box. id rather go toyota too anyway
MR 1GGTE: a 202 and a 176 isnt what being offered
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Location:
VIC, Sth Frankston.
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Mon, 30 August 2004 00:43
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lexcens are just rebadged commonwhores. Same motor n all that shizzaz.
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Location:
Castle Hill NSW
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Mon, 30 August 2004 01:00
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Dude, talk him down to a grand, buy the datto off him, and do it.
It'll be soooooooooo much fun.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Mon, 30 August 2004 01:12
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the V6's used in VN commodore ARE NOT BUICK engines, they ARE BASED ON BUICK engines, they are derived from a FWD 3.8L V6
alloytech motors are only just started to be used in VZ commodore and WL statesman, they were never in a VN commodore and have nothing to do with the question being asked
stick to your toyotas boys
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: commodore V6 engine into RA40
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Mon, 30 August 2004 01:15
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and for what its worth the commdoore VN V6's were assembled in australia but not designed here, what was designed here though was the EMS to meet our standards
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. i love the torque and the economy of these engines