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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Tue, 14 September 2004 14:36
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I've only just noticed that sometimes, no matter if I drive my RAV hard or soft, the coolant bottle will gush out 'excess' water/coolant once it's turned off.
It started this morning with 3/4 of a bottle in reserve. Upon making an observation tonight, I've noticed that the coolant bottle was as full as it could get while the engine was still running, just after I got home from work. The turbo timer shut the engine off, and I noticed the bottle gush out the excess water again (about 100ml). It continued to bubble in the reserve bottle as I left it to cool down. Four hours later I check the level of the coolant once again, and noticed that the level had dropped to a fraction over the LOW line in the bottle, and the radiator was cool and had water/coolant in it.
I'm running the standard RAV4 radiator and this setup had posed no problems to me for the first 3 weeks that I drove it. This has only happened intermittently over the course of the last 4 days. I spoke to Gary Georgiou (GEE120) earlier tonight and he was a bit baffled by the situation as well. He said all that he could relate to it was something to do with a pressure factor.  The radiator cap is a TRD unit (1.3kg/cm²).
Anyone have any ideas on my situation? And don't go telling me that I need a new radiator... the RAV4 one seems like it has been more than up to the task of handling a 3S-GTE engine's cooling needs for the last 3 weeks. 
Any help here appreciated as usual. 
Cheers.
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Location:
Taree, 4h nth of syd
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Tue, 14 September 2004 15:00
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Hey there mate how u been??? good to see your car is up and running.
does the car get hot at all bro??? how much coolant do u normaly keep in the over flow bottle???
all i can think of at the moment is u might have a air block in the system. ive seen it before and thats all i can remember that comes into my mind at the moment
the coolant in the over-flow bottle shouldnt be anymore then the full line also, this will also make it over spill, but if its hot and steamy im certin its a air block
hope this helps bro
Eddie
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Tue, 14 September 2004 15:39
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Hi Eddie,
Nah I don't know about a block in the system... it's a fresh engine. Having said that, I don't have a temp. gauge anymore because the one on the GT-Four has the wrong polarity.
Thanks for the ideas though.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Tue, 14 September 2004 23:08
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Holy shit, the cooling system is playing silly buggers and you're driving around without a temp gauge?? 
Darola's suggestion about air in the system sounds about right. The fact that your engine is "fresh" is completely irrelevant; if the system wasn't bled properly there could be air in there, and that will cause strange things to happen (like what you're describing). It will also cause temperature fluctuations, but you wouldn't know about that because you don't have a temp gauge. 
Get a temp gauge!!
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Location:
Rocklea qld
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 00:04
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if your engine is fresh then realistically you should not get a air block in your system. Air gets in when you loose some water and you top it up and then there is air between where the old level was and the new water you put in. And if there was air it surely would be gone by now. Do you have the right pressure cap for the turbo? should be around 15psi now. Is it a new thermostat. It could be jammed. Or you have a head problem already.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 00:55
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Many modern cars have the radiator lower than the cylinder head, which means you must follow the correct bleeding procedure to get the air out. If this procedure was not followed the first time the cooling system was filled, there could be a certain amount of air in the system. And the air doesn't just "disappear" over time, it stays there until you bleed it out.
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 01:51
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had a similar prob with mine years ago
re bleed system and try a new rad cap 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 02:13
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yikes!
get a temp gauge!!
then bleed the system as already mentioned 
i reckon youre either running hot, or youve got a big ass bubble in there
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 04:22
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Is the engine rebuilt or an import/wrecker jobbie? Its common for some import or wrecker engines )that have been sitting for some time) to collect scale and rust in the water passages that can flake and dislodge when you get the thing running again & hot. The scale can settle in the top of your radiator blocking some of it and causing overheating. This gets worse over time. It may be worth checking your rad (or even flushing it)at the same time you're checking the entire cooling system (air locks etc) and getting your new temp gauge sender installed.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 05:29
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Gauge is on order and being picked up tomorrow night. For now though, the car's off the road (once again ) and in the panel shop getting the ass-end fixed up.
I think it could be a combination of excess heat (won't know for sure yet until the gauge is in) and a bubble in the system. If it is a bubble though, why was it ok for 3 weeks without showing itself?
I took notice of it last night as the car was shutting off, and again this morning when I got to work. Same deal. The radiator bottle is almost full and when the car shuts off, there's excess air that's being released causing bubbles in the bottle. Before the bottle was so full when it was hot that the bubbles pushed out the water out the relief hole in the bottle cap. Today the water level never moved as the bubbles were pushing through the water/coolant in the bottle. When I checked it 2 hours later, sure enough, the level was on the LOW line  and the coolant in the radiator was at the radiator cap level.
Steve, it's a completely rebuilt import engine, no wrecker-jobbies here...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 05:33
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I hate to say it, but an overpressurised (and thus overflowing) cooling system can sometimes point to a BHG. This is what happened to my 18R-GU a while back.
But let's hope it's not that! A temp gauge will give you a much better idea what's happening.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 05:36
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| people100 wrote on Wed, 15 September 2004 10:04 |
Or you have a head problem already.
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Dude I've always had a head problem - why do you think I'm modifying a RAV4? 
Ohh, you mean cylinder head - nah it's not leaking or causing any other issues that I can see, I'm not losing coolant or anything. Damn that incompatible GT-Four stuff with the instrument cluster of the RAV4... not only do I need a temp gauge, but also a new tacho as well. Mine don't work now.. 
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 05:38
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| Norbie wrote on Wed, 15 September 2004 15:33 |
I hate to say it, but an overpressurised (and thus overflowing) cooling system can sometimes point to a BHG. This is what happened to my 18R-GU a while back.
But let's hope it's not that! A temp gauge will give you a much better idea what's happening.
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How many Psi are TRD head gaskets for 3S-GTE's good for?
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 05:49
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I had pretty much same problem with my 3tgte engine and was a blown headgasket. There was no temp problems either, just a very small amount of compressed air was finding its way into the cooling system.
But for you, i hope its not that!
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 06:08
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just to add to the last few replies
that was the prob I had with my 3sgte
a BHG 
nothing evident in the way it ran
just a very overpressurized system 
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Toymods Club Treasurer
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 06:26
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The way a radiator system with overflow works is:
- as the engine gets hot, the coolant expands a bit & starts to compress any air in the system (usually at the highest point in the loop (this is usually where the rad cap & overflow pipe are). With the height of your engine in the RAV, this should be the radiator.
- the air, and then coolant get push out the spring on the cap, causing it to enter the overflow bottle (hopefully bleeding the last bit of air out of the system)
- it gets to operating temp
- as it cools down, the coolant in the system contracts again. This causes it to suck coolant out of the overflow bottle.
Have you checks that your overflow bootle is the same size as the GT4 version?
If its smaller, then it mightn't be able to cope with the amount of expanded fluid.
Don't foget, its got to cope with the coolant being heated by the turbo bearings at several hundred degrees as well now!!
But I'd def get the temp guage hooked up & see whats going on first.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 06:47
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Just checked with Toyota, overflow bottles between GT-Four and RAV4 are just about identical sizes. However they don't know howm many PSI the 3S-GTE head gaskets are good for. Anyone??
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 09:54
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Andy, sorry to say but it sounds like a blown head gasket!
Combustion gasses are displacing the coolant, hence the overflow situation. Once cooled, the engine has "sucked" the coolant back into the block/head, therefore giving the low level in the bottle each morning.
As you pointed out 3 weeks running without prob's then this, = BHG.
20psi. is about the limit for a Toyota head gasket.
regards Chuck.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 10:22
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But I haven't treated it that harshly... anyone ever encountered a faulty head gasket from TRD before? I just don't understand how/if I could have blown a head gasket this damn quickly.
Ok so say it is a head gasket gone - what do I use as a replacement? Any recommendations?
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 10:37
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mines running a TRD headgasket on a fresh motor like yours - no problems at all here..
boost is up only to 14PSI atm though
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 22:32
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if it is a hg problem, not saying it is...
did you put some nice and easy off boost k's on it first and have the head retentioned?
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 22:34
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| RAV-GT4 wrote on Wed, 15 September 2004 20:22 |
But I haven't treated it that harshly... anyone ever encountered a faulty head gasket from TRD before? I just don't understand how/if I could have blown a head gasket this damn quickly.
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driving a freshly rebuilt engine with no temp gauge 
who knows how many times it could have ran hot without you knowing about it.
sorry to say, but its just the wrong way to do things, hope it gets sorted out...
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 22:47
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{hides}
how long should it be before the head needs to be re-tensioned (km's)?
Bugman, I've been giving it the "nice and easy" treatment, but in this beasty there's no such thing as "off boost".
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 22:58
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Who ever rebuilt your motor should have told you how to treat it and how long to take till a retorque was needed. and these are the questions you should have asked him.
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 23:04
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get the usual tests done for a BHG
before thinking the worst
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Wed, 15 September 2004 23:36
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| RAV-GT4 wrote on Wed, 15 September 2004 13:36 |
Damn that incompatible GT-Four stuff with the instrument cluster of the RAV4...
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How imcompatible are they? What is the issue? I mean...the temp sensor from a Mk4 Supra 2JZGE works perfectly with a Mk2 Supra dash, and thats a good 15 years apart!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 00:00
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I can go better than that... I hooked up a 1972 TA22 Celica temp gauge to a 199x 2JZ-GTE. At least 20 years between them but it worked perfectly!
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 00:03
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| Bugman wrote on Thu, 16 September 2004 08:58 |
Who ever rebuilt your motor should have told you how to treat it and how long to take till a retorque was needed. and these are the questions you should have asked him.
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Yeah right - he was in the car with me when I took it for it's first blatt around the block, and told me to put my foot to the floor getting up to 16Psi. I thought it a bit unusual at the time, but do you normally treat a fresh rebuilt 3S-GTE this way on it's first run?
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 00:12
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I was told to drive mine normally when
it was fully rebuilt
didn't boost it over 10 psi until I put
a few k's on it, then gradually built it up
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 00:23
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There are a few schools of thought with running in a new engine, one of those is to warm it up and load it up early to give the rings a good seal.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 00:31
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I found with my 3tgte into ra28, the temp guage worked, but wasn't the correct 'scale' i suppose you could say? But still it did give you a good indication of when it was too hot.
I think best way is to try putting the original sender into the new engine if you can.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 01:10
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Well I have a GT-Four sender in there now, and neither the old RAV4 nor the new GT-Four sender's are working with the gauge; hence why I'm getting another one externally mounted.
Troy, do you remember roughly how many km's you put on yours till you wound it up over 10Psi?
I've had mine for about 1000km's now and I've only occasionally given it a 12Psi hit, but nothing near 15 or 16 (on the mechanic's advice) like when I gave it it's first run. To me it's just too weird, but there's bubbles a-plenty when it cools down after a run from work to home or vice versa. There's not much opportunity in bumper-to-bumper traffic to get a good boosting except on the M4.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 01:16
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And also I talked to Toyota this morning about re-tensioning the head, and apparently you just don't do it on a 3S-GTE. It gets torqued up to 49Nm, mark the bolt and twist an extra 90°. That's it.
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 01:36
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Andrew,
I did 500k's in mine and then retensioned the
head on advice from engine builder
at about 1500k's I started to give it about
12 - 15psi and at 3000k's let rip to 23psi
still going well 
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 02:30
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i ran mine in over 1000Km's - never taking the revs beyond 3500 RPM - and keeping the boost wound down ..
its running perfectly - no problems whatoever at the moment .
just got to kjet it warm up a bit for the forgies to expand then its all good to raise the revs and boost
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 03:04
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| Classique71 wrote on Thu, 16 September 2004 12:30 |
its running perfectly - no problems whatoever at the moment .
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your not waiting for a problem are you Stu
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Location:
Inside a giant turbo (syd...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 03:18
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hey 1gt48u, did you get my PMS or is your pms not working again??
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 08:45
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with everything thats gone on with this car i never say its going to be 100% perfect - thats not looking at the real world picture
But at the moment its pretty damn close to 100%
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 09:48
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id be going a max of about 500km before retourquing
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 11:49
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Ed - if Toyota say "don't re-torque"?
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 12:17
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1. TRD and standard ST205 head gaskets are multi layer steel (MLS) head gaskets which apparently don't need re-torquing like the copper suckers.
2. After seeing the bolt which was stuffed in your wastegate hose RAVGT4 I would suggest that you could have waaaaay overboosted on at least a couple of occasions and blown the head gasket.
3. Wagonists description of the overflow process is fairly accurate from what I've seen BUT if you had too much air in the head to begin with you could have blown the headgasket before the overflow process could clear the air... on my ST185 I have to remove the radiator hose and fill it up with coolant to keep the air pockets to a minimum... the overflow clears out the rest of the small bubbles.
4. I wouldn't go changing the head gasket JUST yet though as even removing the head will mean a new head gasket... go for a drive and then turn the sucker off... see if you can feel bigtime bubbling in your top radiator hose, if so remove the top hose when it cools down and pour some more coolant down it... quickly pop the sucker back on and then top up the radiator.
See how she goes after that.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 12:47
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Luke, that hose from the wastegate isn't blocked off anymore, the guys that will be fitting up the new ECU and tuning it put in a T-piece instead.
The car doesn't show any signs that there is something wrong with it until you shut the engine off. It feels perky and runs great other than that.
I'm willing to do any kind of diagnosis on the car to see what exactly the problem is, starting with getting this new temp gauge installed when my car comes back from the panelbeater's.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 22:51
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but it could have been overheating.. you dont know.l..
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Thu, 16 September 2004 23:22
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As I mentioned earlier my 3t-gte has exact same problem, but engine ran unreal. Sounded sweet on 20psi boost and never missed a beat. So blown headgasket doesn't always have negative symptoms.
I'd take it to mechanic and get them to test the headgasket, its a very simple and quick test. Then at least you can be confident that it is/isn't the problem.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Fri, 17 September 2004 00:00
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Which hose on the wastegate had a bolt in it?
The CT20B wastegate actuator has two hoses going into it, one is from the compressor cover to give a boost signal to open the wastegate the other goes to the VSV. The VSV is a solenoid operated bleed valve to allow the boost to be controlled, stays closed so the car can only make actuator pressure in low gears and cold etc, then opens to increase the boost when it's safe.
At the moment I have one line going from the compressor housing to the wastegate and the other hose blocked off, therefore I'm only running 6ish pounds of boost.
If you had the compressor housing connected to the actuator and the other line plugged then overboosting should not have been a problem. Of course on the otherhand if the line to the compressor housing was blocked you'd be up that brown creek with no propulsion devices.
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Fri, 17 September 2004 01:00
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| TurboRA28 wrote on Fri, 17 September 2004 09:22 |
I'd take it to mechanic and get them to test the headgasket, its a very simple and quick test. Then at least you can be confident that it is/isn't the problem.
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totally agree with what TurboRA28 said
at least you'll know where you stand then
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Fri, 17 September 2004 01:36
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My Brothers GT4 is experiencing the exact same problem, doesnt overheat when theres enough coolant in it, just on longer trips when its switched off it will spill out of the overflow ??
We have taken it to 2 compitent mechanics who both tested it and couldnt find anything wrong with the head gasket, it was better when it had a full system flush, but still does it occasionally. so i will be all ears if you can find a solution to yours ??
Cheers
Ben.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Fri, 17 September 2004 06:39
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I had the same problem when i bought my GT4 3 months ago.
18 hours after buying it it overheated and just steamed from the overflow bottle.
I see somi else has mentioned it, but be sure to replace the 7 dollar radiator cap with the correct 1 for your radiator with correct pressure for your cooling system.
Whenever heat and pressure were brought up mine just dumped all the coolant.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Fri, 17 September 2004 11:36
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| Joshstix wrote on Fri, 17 September 2004 10:00 |
Which hose on the wastegate had a bolt in it?
The CT20B wastegate actuator has two hoses going into it, one is from the compressor cover to give a boost signal to open the wastegate the other goes to the VSV. The VSV is a solenoid operated bleed valve to allow the boost to be controlled, stays closed so the car can only make actuator pressure in low gears and cold etc, then opens to increase the boost when it's safe.
At the moment I have one line going from the compressor housing to the wastegate and the other hose blocked off, therefore I'm only running 6ish pounds of boost.
If you had the compressor housing connected to the actuator and the other line plugged then overboosting should not have been a problem. Of course on the otherhand if the line to the compressor housing was blocked you'd be up that brown creek with no propulsion devices.
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It was the one that goes to the VSV that was blocked off... but not very well at all. The bolt was extremely loose in the hose, thus would have been bleeding off most of the pressure to the wastegate.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiator & Coolant bottle queries
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Sat, 18 September 2004 18:39
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Thanks for all the responses so far guys - I'll check back in later when I get the head gasket checked for leaks, etc. and have the new temp gauge installed, which will be about another week or so when the RAV is out of the panel shop and back on the road.
Stay tuned for more a bit later on.
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