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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 08:10
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Last night i spent a few hours at J.E.M with a mate and his 20v sx.corolla . He ended up getting 70.4kw whats the chances of a mod maybe putting actual reading from dyno days at the top (sticky) just to let some people know what theyre looking at with there conversions. we removed the runners the afm and "hiflowed" the cat.WE gained 2kw from the exhaust 1kw from the cat and 1kw from the restback . We gained about 1 from removing the runners out of the plenum and about 3 from the air flow meter. Also a big thanks goes out to adam @J.E.M for putting up with a million questions that we asked 
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 08:50
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i woulda thought a 20V would get somewhere around the 100KW mark. what happened to the turbo idea? 
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 08:58
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meh... Dyno figures are dyno figures.... Does it go hard on the street? Is he happy with it? If so, that's all that matters.
I bet he could take it to some other Dyno in Sydney and get 100kw
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 09:01
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| AE86slut wrote on Sun, 26 September 2004 18:58 |
meh... Dyno figures are dyno figures.... Does it go hard on the street? Is he happy with it? If so, that's all that matters.
I bet he could take it to some other Dyno in Sydney and get 100kw
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agreed 100%
a dyno is a tuning tool only
not an accurate gauge of street power output.
nor something that you should base your whole engine on.
in my opinion that is.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 09:11
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true, but this dyno is pretty consistand with other dynos. and if it were supposed to be around 100KW (not sure what they are supposed to get) you wouldnt expect a difference of as much as 30%. its a dyno dynamics dyno, and not that old.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 09:32
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evo it was mikeys corolla , it goes better cos his other computer was rooted. i thought at least 90kw but according to another post a silver only makes a measured 100kw at the fly, and not the toyota 120 or so,. im still abit sketchy about the company that did the original wiring (NOT JEM) in the first place i rekon when they solderd the wires they didnt unplug the ecu and it got too hot thats y the ecu only lasted a week. the dyno is pretty regula with another places dyno dynamics dyno he showd us how to hook it up properly and how to "fudge" numbers on the dyno, but he wouldnt let me fudge my corolla to have the only stock 4af with 500kw 
does it go hard on the street ? how longs a piece of string i say, are u refering to cornering or straight line stuff? i might think it goes hard but another person might think its shit,In my mates case its the car hes always wanted and he doesnt drive that hard in the first place.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 09:36
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yeah you can alter shit to account for drivtrain loss, humidity etc and it can make your figures look better.
yeah i heard he had the 20V in, i had heard he was gonna turbo the stock motor
who wired it originally? is he still using the stock ecu just re-wired?
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 09:47
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I basically mean does your mate that owns it think that it goes hard and is happy with it?
As previously stated, a dyno is a tuning tool. I have a dyno sheet for my 20V that states 94.9rwkw, but if I dragged your mate, he might chop my car. They were tuned on different dyno's on different days under different conditions so in the conditions and dyno that your mates car was run on, it could be a very respectable output.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 10:02
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It was Dyno Dynamics I think.... Wouldn't have a clue about the temp etc. Just running cutom spun trumpets and no filters.
Flogbag's car just turned 100rwkw on the same dyno with a similar setup.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 10:09
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ATT flogbog race mick  mike reckons flogbogs car MIGHT have a cam (modded one )
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 10:26
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Hi,
Interesting stuff. Someone enlighten me to what the "ballpark" losses are, in percentage, to the rear (or front) wheels.
Like, a 100kw engine is just the engine, by the time this power gets to the wheels (thru gearbox and diff), I would assume a certain percentage loss to overcome friction, heat and other stuff. There's no way a 100kw engine could deliver 100kw at the rear wheels, unless you have some alien-technology lossless transmission and drive train.
So, if you get about 20percent loss in the drivetrain, I'd expect to see around 80kw at the wheels. Am I right or am I right? I'd also assume some drivtrains would be more "lossy" than others. Autos, maybe more lossy??? Slipping clutch????
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 10:31
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You lose more with autos and 4WD.... Is it generally 20% loss? I'm unsure. Sounds right tho.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 10:43
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There isn't really a "standard" loss, there are too many variables. It most likely won't even be a direct correlation when working on the same car. The only way to get a true figure is to stick it on an engine dyno.
About the best yardstick you can get with chassis dynos though is finding a dyno operator with a Dyno Dynamics dyno that KNOWS how to use Shootout mode properly. It's becoming more and more apparent that there are plenty who dont which is a real shame. 
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Location:
Dandenong Ranges, VIC
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 11:46
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i've heard often that drive train losses are about 30% RWD manual and 17% FWD manual. dunno about AWD. add another 7-10% for an auto. i know its is different for different cars but from what ive heard thats some sort of average.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 11:58
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can one of ae86slut or flem plz post the dyno graph from their runs
thanks
-ian
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 12:08
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| Flem wrote on Sun, 26 September 2004 19:45 |
new haltek, (e6? i think) i dont think its right to say the companys name but its the place down the road from his work, hes got no cash cos it just wnt to the ecu hence no 20v turbo. there was one 20vturbo at jem it pulled 167kw @ The wheels.
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Thats a friends car, he is having alot of problems with that car, as he used the 20v, He should have went straight to the gze!
Hey, nice meeting you guys down at JEMS!
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 23:11
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| ae95 wrote on Sun, 26 September 2004 21:58 |
can one of ae86slut or flem plz post the dyno graph from their runs
thanks
-ian
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Don't have a scanner, but if I can, I will.....
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 23:19
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Most of the 20 valves that have run at Toymods Dyno days have made roughly SFA power. They are generally about 7-10 KW's up on the 16 valvers.
All of the results for the Toymods Dyno days are posted in the events section fo the forum.
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 23:30
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| Joshstix wrote on Mon, 27 September 2004 09:19 |
Most of the 20 valves that have run at Toymods Dyno days have made roughly SFA power. They are generally about 7-10 KW's up on the 16 valvers.
All of the results for the Toymods Dyno days are posted in the events section fo the forum.
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SFA compared to what? They are an N/A 1.6L engine.
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Sun, 26 September 2004 23:50
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every 20v i have tuned has made between 94 and 100kw at the wheels,
dont know if any of these cars have been on other dynos or not,
if one spun up 70kw on our dyno i would be looking for problems
Dale
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Mon, 27 September 2004 05:46
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| AE86slut wrote on Mon, 27 September 2004 09:30 |
SFA compared to what? They are an N/A 1.6L engine.
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Compared to the 128KW they are meant to put out at the flywheel. I have often seen stock 20 valves making less than 10 KW more than stock bigports. The engines are hugely over rated with the standard management. get some decent management on there and it's a different matter but the same can be said for most engines.
If the engines both lived up to their flywheel ratings you would expect the 2V to make 25-30KW more than a bigport on the same dyno on the same day. This just doesn't happen for some reason.
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Mon, 27 September 2004 05:59
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Meh... I dunno. I don't think they are over rated. I'm very happy with my engine and it seems to make enough power to keep up with the odd ZE engined Sprinter.... I think the big problem with people doing 20V conversions and disappointing outputs is due to the fact that most of them seem to be compromised in one way or the other e.g. shit extractors, shit exhaust, shit induction system, shit tune. They are difficult to tune properly with aftermarket management, but seem to put out decent numbers when done right. I know of one that recently spat out just over 100rwkw on a very professionally run dyno which, minus a 20% drivetrain loss, would be in line with your above fugure of 128kw @ the fly.
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Location:
Sydney (Campbelltown...!)
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Mon, 27 September 2004 06:16
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hey ppl
10secrx7 did an excellent job tuning my car
it got 100.3kw at the wheels
its a dyno dynamics dyno and would be acurate as they have shootouts and all that on it and its in a perfessional establishment
"race michael" gonna have to....
is it running ok felt heaps sorry for him when the stock computer shit itself...
as ae86slut was saying i think its all up to install, hook up everything correctly and itll be all good... one of the main problems that i had was the vacumn ports on the side of #4 manifold runner i had to block them off and adjust the butterfly to correct idle speed as it was extremely unsellted with them open
as for preformace, i think im getting my 100kw worth i play with v6 commodores, my car pulls 130 out of second and 180 out of third with no hesitation, it doesnt even compare to my friends 100kw 4age with a microtech i pull car lengths at a time!
ill post my dyno sheet soon if i can get hold of a scanner
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Location:
Sydney (Campbelltown...!)
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Mon, 27 September 2004 07:32
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Mon, 27 September 2004 07:42
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next time i see ya on the road flogbag ill give ya a go. id like to get a comparisson of mine against a 16v or 20v below 5000rpm cause i still think mine pulls alright while off boost. have you still got the stock diff? i think i read you were going T18?
theres gotta be a problem with micks car forsure. 70kw is a little dissapointing. plus all the bog that things got would slow it down too.
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Location:
I wanna go Hawaiiiiii.......
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Mon, 27 September 2004 08:43
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Celicamad has data on the drivetrain losses. But I think it generally goes like this.
Toyota boxes are generally low loss, ie people over state the losses from toyota gboxes.
manuals lose about 12%, and auto's (such A340) lose about 19%.
Only full time 4wd lose up to 30%.
These figures were researched by a firm using both engine and chassis dyno's, and were attained about as accurately as possible (within reason).
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Location:
Sydney (Campbelltown...!)
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Mon, 27 September 2004 12:00
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"plus all the bog that things got would slow it down too" - lol
yah ill give u a run you'll smash me tho i been told u have done some work to ur car since last time i seen it go
stock diff still and gearbox i am just trying not to give it to much of a hard time...
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Location:
Sydney (Campbelltown...!)
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Mon, 27 September 2004 12:03
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how is the turbo setup going? worth doing how much power do u have? wats it like to drive?
would like to know some details maybe even meet up and have a look sometime...
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: power output at the wheels
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Tue, 28 September 2004 06:33
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have a look whenever you like.
power is a relatively low 173KW atw's, should hit the magic 200 mark next dyno run due to the fact my wastegate was fucked but now its sorted.
good to drive if you dont mind lag, which im ok with cause its easy to stay off boost in the wet, and when the missus is in the car.
your diff will hold up fine if you dont flog it, im still on my stock diff, but i didnt give my car a hard time when it was gze and still dont now.
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