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Location:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Registered:
October 2002
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 Usable RPM range
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Sun, 13 October 2002 15:59
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Hi. I'm new here and I have lots of questions.
I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to figure out the usable RPM range for a particular car. I am currently rebuilding a 1973 Celica ST with an 18-RC. We don't have the infamous 18-RG in Canada and I don't have the budget to import one so I'm trying to squeeze as much power as I can from the one I have. The engine needs a total rebuild so I'm going to balance the rotating assembly, get lighter forged pistons and port the head. Maybe a bigger cam and roller valvetrain sometime in the future.
Can I increase the usable RPM range? Is there a maximum piston speed of some kind of "golden rule" for this? How do I figure it out?
Thanks. 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Sun, 13 October 2002 21:33
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my power kicks in at 3,000RPM and best gear changing times are at 5,500rpm but the engine can keep reving up to around 7,000rpm had it over that but thats not in gear,
if thats any help to ya.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Mon, 14 October 2002 07:04
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Could always turf the 18RC and get a 22R... 2.4L Vs 2.0L. Buckets load of torque. And bolts straight in.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Mon, 14 October 2002 07:24
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But it doesn't have any more power! So what's the point?
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Mon, 14 October 2002 08:59
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power isn't everything! Power is only usable once up and running, ie race track. Simple comparison 20V vs GZE, equal power, different torque outputs, and guess which win's at the traffic lights and 1/4 times, the one with more torque!! ZE That who!! And Later model 22R's are rated @ 75kw, 86kw in EFI form, I had 90Kw with aftermarket ECU, I know not massive power, but 285NM of torque, well?? let's see and 18RC do this!! High flow head of the 20R is also in abundance over there too, there's another cheap power upgrade. Besides the amount of aftermarket parts in the Over in the U.S for them, plus the turbo and all the other B/S available for a 22R, it's got to make more sense. I know what your thinking a 22R, why? The reason's why, well by the same token why a never got a 1G, price!! Back when I did had this engine, a 1GGTE was worth $4000-5000, not within a uni students price range!! Believe me, I would be looking at doing a 22R not an 18RC.
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Location:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Mon, 14 October 2002 15:18
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I've heard other people talk about the 22Rwith the 20R head for the torque advantage. I have 2 broad questions about this option.
1. With the 20R head, do you need to use the 20R intake manifold?
If so, will the turbo from the 22R bolt up?
2. How does the ECU swap work? Do I need the ECU from the 22R or do I need an aftermarket ECU?
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Tue, 15 October 2002 08:23
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1. With the 20R head, do you need to use the 20R intake manifold?
If so, will the turbo from the 22R bolt up?
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Due to the lack of 20R's here hence never done it (ie Near Zero!) I can only from what it on the net... which is all will bolt up Ok from what I'm lead to believe.
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2. How does the ECU swap work? Do I need the ECU from the 22R or do I need an aftermarket ECU?
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I would get an aftermarket for best performance, the stock version would be a waste of time and limit you tuning options.
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Location:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Tue, 15 October 2002 23:10
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Thanks for the info.
Can I keep the 5 speed transmission from my 18R with the 22R block?
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Wed, 16 October 2002 01:33
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The last time I used an 18R box with a 22R, There was one dowel hole that had to be drilled and it bolted straight up, not a big effort.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Wed, 16 October 2002 02:31
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Yes the 22R has lots more torque, which will be a real advantage if you're towing a caravan. I don't think that's the intended application here though! I was simply making the point that if you're going to all the trouble of an engine conversion, why use an engine which is only slightly better than the original? Why not go for something decent? Let's face it, a Celica with a 22R is never going to be fast (not without lots of money thrown at it anyway).
Re the manifolds, a 22R inlet manifold will NOT fit on a 20R cylinder head - the bolt pattern and port spacing is different. I'm not 100% sure on the exhaust side, but I think it's the same deal. In any case I wouldn't recommend using a 22R-TE manifold if you want a turbo - it's a very poorly designed manifold. Also, it locates the turbo in a position which will foul the steering box on a LHD car. You're much better off getting a custom manifold fabricated, or using a J-pipe off the 20R manifold if you want to do it low-budget.
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Location:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Wed, 16 October 2002 03:53
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If the 22R is only slightly better than the 18R, what would be a better option? I agree that if I'm going to go through the work of an engine conversion, I would like to drop in something that would make a big difference. However, Canada doesn't get many of the high performance engine options. Any suggestions for a better swap than the 22R?
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Wed, 16 October 2002 09:02
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why use an engine which is only slightly better than the original? Why not go for something decent?
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Mate it's not slightly better, it's heaps, otherwise the RA65 would of had an 18RC. I replaced the 18RC in an RA40 with the 22R in this thread, big difference!!
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Let's face it, a Celica with a 22R is never going to be fast (not without lots of money thrown at it anyway).
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Neither is an 18RC version! Ever seen a standard '93 22RC Hilux(1250KG) race a '80 18RC (1050kg) celica which had been recently rebuilt with some mild mod's? guess who won? guess who bought the 22R after I some spastic rode my the hilux off? 18RC vs 22RC no comparison. Cubes always win. Besides, with a cam change, the engine has more like 100kw and resides in a part's pick Corona wagon he uses, a lot of work for is need to an 18RC to reach this mark vs the 22R which use mostly stock parts after it's 2nd rebuild!!
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In any case I wouldn't recommend using a 22R-TE manifold if you want a turbo - it's a very poorly designed manifold. Also, it locates the turbo in a position which will foul the steering box on a LHD car
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Last time I read The 22RTE was sold in the US ie LHD, but I will agree, a custom always does give better results.
Norbie,
let's remember, MTS is talking about pumping his cash into and 18RC not an 18RG, THE BEST CHOICE OF ALL THE R ENGINES. The last time an 18RC saw a dyno it show less power than a late model 22R from a Hilux, I really can't say I have seen any '90+ model 18RC either... So why use something At least 20 years old?
MTS if EFI doesn't fit, though I'm really not sure, a set of good webbers, 20R head, ported etc, and anything else your thinking about, the 18RC won't come close to the 22R
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Banned member
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Wed, 16 October 2002 10:00
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norbie, the ever uninformed
first of all, 20r and 22r exhaust bolt patterns are indentical, the intakes are not the same due to the different port shapes also
secondly a 22re will dump shit all over a 18rc, no way is a 18rc going to jump off the line like a 22re and you dont have to rev out a 22re to 8000rpm just to start getting a bit of power out of it
mtsbirch join the occ mailing list and talk to people who know what they are talking about not just what they think they know
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Wed, 16 October 2002 10:10
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I wouldn't even wanna consider getting the 22r-e up to 8000rpm
my peak power is 3500 - 5500rpm ... anywhere else and it's fairly ordinary.
while we're talking about ra65s, my RA65 clutch is heavy. heavier than the ma61, which makes me think it might be aftermarket. can anyone tell me if the ra65 comes stock with a fairly heavy clutch?
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Location:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Thu, 17 October 2002 05:54
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I tried joining the occ mailing list but they "don't like my ISP" so they won't let me join. 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Thu, 17 October 2002 06:31
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How did I know the 22R zealots were going to pop out of the woodwork and jump down my throat?  To quote myself:
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why use an engine which is only slightly better than the original? Why not go for something decent?
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As you can see, I already conceded that the 22R is a better engine - I'm just saying it's not a good enough upgrade to justify the effort (IMO).
| Johnny wrote on Wed, 16 October 2002 19:02 |
Last time I read The 22RTE was sold in the US ie LHD,
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You are correct, however it was only availble in commercial vehicles which have lots more room in the engine bay. Try to slot one into a LHD Celica and you will have problems.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Thu, 17 October 2002 13:34
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I already conceded that the 22R is a better engine
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What's the problem then?? I know... It's the 'slightly' bit  . 18RC,65kw vs 22RC,75KW- 10Kw's and a bucket load of torque is not a slight difference. Besides, you have a better base line to start with which means you have an extra 10Kw which you don't have to look for. But your opinion is because, your comparing a standard 22RE to a Standard 1GGTE, which would have slightly more torque but a heap more Rpm, which does to give you your 153 odd Kw's, so really your opinion doesn't count(Biased). I can't blame you for think a 22R is a POS, after driving a 1GGTE. Again look at the standard base figure of a 1G to play with. Of course most people will choose it, but others do like to be different and are forunate to have enough cash to 'waste' their money to match power outputs with other hi-performance variants with so called 'inferior' engines, but at this point, does this make them inferior? Others, such as myself are stuck due to rules with those type of engines, why I run a worked 7AFE (125Kw) Not a worked 20V 4AGE(170+kw). But once decent parts are put in the first time, rebuilding them does get cheaper...
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I'm just saying it's not a good enough upgrade to justify the effort
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Hmm.. well on the restrictions MTS has:
18RC- Already has, Not as good as 22R (You did conceed)
18RG- Hard to get now, and cannot afford
22R - Readily available, easiest conversion,plenty of parts,
No fabrication, except for exhaust and/or electrics
(Version dependent)
1GGTE or ZE- GOTO 18RG comment
1/2JZGTE- GOTO 18RG comment
Well in your case, 22R -> 1GGTE, I can understand where your coming from (bang for bucks), but IMO, any engine or car can be improved, it's only what avenue you wish to take. In MTS's case, with the list above, is exactly how I personally go about justify any projects. ie look at the options and price them up.
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You are correct, however it was only availble in commercial vehicles which have lots more room in the engine bay. Try to slot one into a LHD Celica and you will have problems.
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Every conversion has their problems.... and I really can't say I have fitted a 22RTE to a LHD Celica, So I need to be enlightened
Norbie,
I know what your opinion is of the 22R is (ie POS), and I'm not trying to change that. I'm just trying to give a guy some food for thought with the budget he's got, which I think this thread has done quite well, now it's up to him to make the decision. A IMO, the 18RC is worst than the 22R.
MTS,
Here's all our opinion's and options, it's up to you to do some research in to what you want and try to achieve within your budget.
Mad85,
Where there's a 22R convo on, I knew you'd have to show up at sometime 
Draven,
You'll have to pull the gearbox out and have a look, cause I've driven many cars and had cars of the same model feel very different in the pedals, gearshifting, etc. That's the only way to be 100% sure.
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Location:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Thu, 17 October 2002 14:12
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[quote title=Johnny wrote on Thu, 17 October 2002 07:34]| Quote: |
18RC- Already has, Not as good as 22R (You did conceed)
18RG- Hard to get now, and cannot afford
22R - Readily available, easiest conversion,plenty of parts,
No fabrication, except for exhaust and/or electrics
(Version dependent)
1GGTE or ZE- GOTO 18RG comment
1/2JZGTE- GOTO 18RG comment
Well in your case, 22R -> 1GGTE, I can understand where your coming from (bang for bucks), but IMO, any engine or car can be improved, it's only what avenue you wish to take. In MTS's case, with the list above, is exactly how I personally go about justify any projects. ie look at the options and price them up.
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That is exactly the rationale I use to size up my options. I have thought about importing an 18 RG from Australia but apparently the shipping costs are astronomical so that option is out. 4AGE is a little more accessible here but prohibitively expensive to buy and rebuild for my current budget.
So yes I have some research to do, and some decisions to make.
Thank you all for your opinions and information. 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Thu, 17 October 2002 14:28
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[quote title=Johnny wrote on Thu, 17 October 2002 23:34]| Quote: |
But your opinion is because, your comparing a standard 22RE to a Standard 1GGTE, which would have slightly more torque but a heap more Rpm, which does to give you your 153 odd Kw's, so really your opinion doesn't count(Biased). I can't blame you for think a 22R is a POS, after driving a 1GGTE.
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I'm not sure what you're talking about here... at no point was I comparing a 22R to a 1G (no point really), and I have never driven a car with a 1G.
As for 18R-G's, they can be bought in North America, there's no need to import one from Australia. Join the OCC list if you haven't already, they pop up for sale there from time to time. It's a plug-and-play option for any car with an 18R-C, and they have 130-140hp stock, so even if it takes a while to find one it's definitely an option worth considering.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Fri, 18 October 2002 13:14
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I'm not sure what you're talking about here... at no point was I comparing a 22R to a 1G (no point really), and I have never driven a car with a 1G.
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Sorry Miss informed, though you had an RA65, Not and MA65... Trust me try a 1GGTE... Fun factor , IMO better than aN "M" series....
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As for 18R-G's, they can be bought in North America, there's no need to import one from Australia
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Yeah if someone want to get rid of a rare engine there...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Fri, 18 October 2002 13:45
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Who wants a 1G-GTE when you have a 2JZ-GTE?
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Sun, 20 October 2002 23:07
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Who wants a 1G-GTE when you have a 2JZ-GTE?
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Oh well, wrong again 
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Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Usable RPM range
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Mon, 29 March 2004 04:00
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would i be able to fit a 20R head to a 1986 22RE, i heard there is a difference between the -85 22RE and the 86- 22RE.
cheers
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