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Registered:
August 2004
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Why do people get roll cages?
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Mon, 15 November 2004 20:15
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This isnt a attack on anyone for starters.
But i just want to know why people get roll cages if their not gonna do any track work at all?
1. how much do they cost
4. how much wieght do they add?
2. is it for looks
3. safety
4. If a car were to remove back seat and do other weight reduction would there be a need for a roll cage?
Cheers
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Mon, 15 November 2004 21:01
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maybe safety? 
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Mon, 15 November 2004 21:18
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| muaythaiman wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 10:01 |
maybe safety?
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Actually, without all the matching gear (harness, race seats, helmet etc) a cage can be MORE dangerous.
Callum
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Mon, 15 November 2004 21:29
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yeah, I agree with purple beasty.
Also, sometimes you have to eg. run a 10 second pass and you have to before you will be allowed to race again.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Mon, 15 November 2004 21:31
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I had my doubts before but it must be the school holidays.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Mon, 15 November 2004 21:34
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I get my 4 pointer put in next week, and thats going in simply for safety. True my car isnt a daily driver, and for that matter my daily driver doesnt have a cage. But on the 86 i think its a reasonable requirement, especially as i will be doing track work on it.
As for daily drivers, i wouldnt install one, mainly for the reasons that PurpleBeasty has already iterated. Without everything else you have too much room to move, and the cage becomes a really hard object which you hit. Normally there woudl be padding or at least plastic there, but with a cage it is now metal.
As for your questions:
1. My 4point crossbraced is costing me $600
2. I estimate itll add about 15-20kg
3. No i race this thing.
4. I have completely stripped the interior, and the cage is a logical extension.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Mon, 15 November 2004 21:50
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a proper roll cage not only increases the saftey of the car in an accident, but it also can dramatically increase the stiffness of the chasis (not the cusco etc bolt in type cages - they are mostly cosmetic items)
yes an unshelded 6 point style of cage can be a very dangerous thing in a road car - people have died in quite minor accidents from head injuries. common sence should prevail here when it comes to padding tubes near one's head.
as to costs - a good 4 point built into your car tig welded racetech350 tube would be around $1k. basic 6 point about double that
T
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Mon, 15 November 2004 23:11
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| ._T_. wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 10:50 |
ayes an unshelded 6 point style of cage can be a very dangerous thing in a road car - people have died in quite minor accidents from head injuries. common sence should prevail here when it comes to padding tubes near one's head.
T
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The main issue I see with a using a cage in a road isn't lack of padding (as you point out common sense says you put in padding), but used with retractable belts they prevent the car crumpling to absorb an impact as well as reducing the space that the retractable belts have to reduce the momentum of your body.
Its a bit like using harnesses with out a cage, retractables are much safer as they slow your body gradually. Harnesses are only really designed to prevent most of your body movement (they will stretch in a crash) so you don't hit the cage.
Callum
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Tue, 16 November 2004 00:09
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i don't agree - a harness will hold an occupant much better in an accident than a sash belt ever will - sash belt is a compramise piece of safety equipment if there ever was one.
99% of roll cages do not protude beyond the firewall so they will not affect the cars cruple (crumble?) zones (unless side impact - then cage intrusion bars far more benifit!!)
a decent seat will also hold you better - allowing the harness to work better as well.
only thing left unrestrained (fairly important part) ends up being you head - unless encased in a helmet & with a neck brace (or even better a haans device) neck injuries will occur. not much you can do about that other than not have any accidents!
lets be honest - safety equipment is better off not being used - ideal situation is that you never have an accident & have to test everything out - that's the ideal situation.
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Tue, 16 November 2004 01:04
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As individual pieces harness, seat, cage and helmet are not the best option. It is only together and at higher speeds that you get the real benefit.
Helmet - makes your head heavier increasing risk of neck injuries when in most crashes you won't hit your head.
Harness - will cause sudden deceleration of your body in an accident rather than the controlled deceleration of retractable belts increasing the risk of internal injuries. Also interferes with airbags if fitted.
Seat - proper race seats can interfere with the correct operation of seat belts in some cars.
Cage - reduces interior room thereby increasing the risk of head injuries, and most decent race spec cages should be tied into your front strut towers which will interfere with crumple zones.
Put them all together and increase the speeds though and you will be far better off. However for normal road use any single component is likely to do more harm than good in most accident situations. The exception is seats, IF they don't interfere with the correct operation of your seatbelts they can help by reducing sideways movement in an accident.
Callum
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Tue, 16 November 2004 01:51
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I put my cage in purely for the chassis stiffening effect. Then again, my car is not a daily driver.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Tue, 16 November 2004 07:01
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| gianttomato wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 07:31 |
I had my doubts before but it must be the school holidays.
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Special schools apparently have their holidays in different times to others 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Location:
Melbourne: South east
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Tue, 16 November 2004 12:18
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If any1 is looking for a 4-point cage.... Toyospares (rip-off-spares) is/was seliin 1 for $200. But i believe it is now on e-bay...already fetching more than $200. MMuuhahahaha, foolz!
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Tue, 16 November 2004 12:22
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Ahhh, a thread close to Rex's heart...
Standard seatbelts do not provide controlled deceleartion of body mass.
They are one the most compromised piece of safety equipment in the modern automobile. They are designed to: (a) retract out of the way, when entering or exiting a car, (2) Cater and work the same across all body shapes and sizes, (3) LOCK on sudden extension to tie the body to the vehicles mass and (4) be easy enough for any bonehead to use
When the occupants body lurches forwards, the reel LOCKS solid. No control of deceleration whatsoever. The usage of pre-tensioners further highlights this. Pre-tensioners are often used as part of the SRS system. an explosive charge in the reel causes the belt to pull tight the instant the SRS system is triggered.
Controlled deceleration is only built into crumple zones, airbags and padding.
Harnesses are surely a gift from god to restraining systems. The massive increase in surface contact to the torso has a huge affect on how forces are applied to the human body.
As good as they are, they are not used explicitely for the following reasons.
- ADRS assume occupant laziness/stupidity, in that not every person is going to adjust the harness for a proper fit each time they use the vehicle. Retractor belts do this automatically.
- Harnesses are more complicated (emergency crew stupidity) than reciever type buckle seatbelts to release an occupant from in the event of an emergency.
Neck injuries are impossible to prevent without making the head part of the cars mass as a seatbelt/harness does or a neck brace which is in no way a match. For example head rest and wings for rearward and sideways movement and a strap across the forehead for forwards movement. In this respect helmets are bad because they increase the mass of an occupants head. But it is better to have a sore neck than pieces of your brain in the passenger footwell and smeared across the roll cage
Rollcages perform 2 functions. Increase vehicle stiffness so the suspension performs its best and protect occupants in event of roll over and side impact. Front and rear impacts are still absorbed mostly by the vehicles body.
The cage must tie rigid all four suspension corners and prevent the body from flexing or twisting and transfer/distribute forces throughout the structure with minimal deformation.
This is why competatiion rollcages are very complex and very heavy.
Less serious roll cages filter on down through the levels to where simple half cages and 4/6 point bolt-in cages acceptable.
Then there are wank cages, which although them may perform very well are over-kill and simply add a mass of weight to a car which may only require a simpler cage. These types of cages usually kill people because they are rarely used with helmets (unless on track).
Jesus, here Rex is wanking on about shite when he has study to perform.
Live long and prosper, you lot...
Rex
[Updated on: Tue, 16 November 2004 12:25]
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Tue, 16 November 2004 12:53
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Rex, and others, i would be interested in hearing what you think of the Hans device.
I have been curious about this for a while, looks like a good idea.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Tue, 16 November 2004 15:51
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Wow.... makes a big difference.
But whats with the harness in the movie, when the car hits, the dummy's body moves forward a lot before the belts stop it.
Looks like they were too loose?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Fri, 19 November 2004 08:31
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I never checked back to this thread since i origanally posted. If I was in a car that rolled on an outback road, regardless of whether I was wearing a harness, or standard (but decent condition) belts, I would be happier with a rollcage.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Fri, 19 November 2004 11:13
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thing i love about that device is the dumb american nascar driver that shunned the device died from a neck related accident
i too saw that rovanpera wrc clip, fucking scary shit
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Fri, 19 November 2004 11:31
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| Rex_Kelway wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 23:22 |
Ahhh, a thread close to Rex's heart...
Standard seatbelts do not provide controlled deceleartion of body mass.
They are one the most compromised piece of safety equipment in the modern automobile. They are designed to: (a) retract out of the way, when entering or exiting a car, (2) Cater and work the same across all body shapes and sizes, (3) LOCK on sudden extension to tie the body to the vehicles mass and (4) be easy enough for any bonehead to use
When the occupants body lurches forwards, the reel LOCKS solid. No control of deceleration whatsoever. The usage of pre-tensioners further highlights this. Pre-tensioners are often used as part of the SRS system. an explosive charge in the reel causes the belt to pull tight the instant the SRS system is triggered.
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I have to completely disagree there...
The self locking seatbelt actually removes momentum safer...
When in an accident, with no seat belt, your body moves with the same momentum, until it smacks the wheel/dash...
An old school seat belt just snaps instantly once a certain point is reached...
The newer self locking seatbelts actually start up a tensioner before locking (You may not notice it until in an accident)
But when in an accident, they can "slip" which allows decelleration although fairly quick still, over a greater distance...
As for the explosive charges...
They are actually set up, such that when an airbag system deploys, the charges go off, and actually "snap" the self locking system (releasing it) such that, instead of stopping you in the "short" distance the seat belt tensioner can use, it allows you to slow over approx 6 - 12 inches...
Therefore you don't slow as quickly, therefore you recieve less problems from sudden stops etc...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Fri, 19 November 2004 11:58
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still id prefer a willans 3 inch wide 4 point harness and my bride full bucket over a std seat and a sash belt
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Fri, 19 November 2004 18:40
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interesting thread here fellas. Soooooo-I too have a question to pose.
Currently the crown is on the brink of running the magical 10.99 or faster for the 1/4. Now-although you may all tink 'gosh theres a billion rules to adhere to once you've done that', due to the fact that Adelaide International Raceway is a Bob Jane operated venue-the ANDRA rules to not apply as it is a track which is no longer ANDRA afilliated (believe it or not.....!!!!!). Consequently, if you turn up in a clean and roadworthy car, you are free to race. More specifically, if I turn up in my Crown, which is less than technically legal, although completely roadworthy and well maintained,and run a 10.99 or better, there is nothing extra to do (ie-no cage, no harness and possibly no parachute-but only above 140 mph with rear discs (135 with rear drums)).
Although I can get away without one, for my own safety I am considering fitting a cage, race seat(s) and harnesses. Has anyone here actually fitted a custom one/or had one fitted, and also gone the full race seat and harness set-up? If so, is it possible to design one up my self and have it fabricated, or is it more of a specialised field to ensure safety during an accident?
Cheers guys-sean
Adelaide
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Location:
Dandenong Ranges, VIC
Registered:
July 2004
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Sat, 20 November 2004 08:41
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The HANS device looks the goods, if I was ever in a position to do some serious track work I'd invest in on of those!
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Sat, 20 November 2004 19:26
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MS-75
First off you car is damn impressive.
When it comes to building a cage my personal opinion is leave it to the experts, they may not deal with Crowns that regularly but they will have the experience to design an appropriate cage. When picking someone to build your cage, talk to lots of people with cages in different areas of motorsport until you find a cage builder you are happy with. Usual story, check over their workmanship and attention to detail. Find an engineer who agrees with what you want to do and why you want to do it. Putting a cage in a road car is quite a bit trickier than slapping one in a race car, you don't need to worry about interiors, passengers etc.
Personally, you need to decide what you want out of the car, balancing between road and race use is pretty tricky stuff. By the time you put in a rollcage you pretty much have to say goodbye to the back seat. I don't know what the rules are like in Oz but in NZ you can get bolt in cages custom made and approved, they give you the extra peace of mind without the added hassles when using your car everyday. So then you put in race seats, use regular seat belts most of the time and swap in the cage and harnesses for racing. Not sure how you would go about this on your side of the ditch though.
Callum
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Location:
Outer space
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Why do people get roll cages?
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Sat, 20 November 2004 23:10
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Hi guys,
I have a 4 point half cage in my mazda mx5 originally it cost me 550 from brown davis who manufactured it in sydney/melborne where ever it was
Such is the demand it was an off the shelf item that can be installed in less than an hour I also have sparco jnr seats and looking at harnesses in the near future original reason for getting the roll cage was for doing weekend track work out at QR for saturday arvo sprints etc
When i did it the insurance company etc or DOT etc didn'thave a problem with it as the car is a convertible chassis from the factory and the part is regarded as a saftey feature
now though with alot more money invested in the car it rarely sees the track and just draws attention from the boys in blue
My cage was fitted with harness mounting points etc so they are easy to engineer so on so forth when i do it!
What phases me is when you see a commodore or falcon with a 6 point roll cage ie bars going down to the back parcel shelf and side intrusion that people will still get in the back of these cars
The main problem with roll cages on the street is from a after accident point of view commonly cut to remove the turret are the a'b and c pillars to gain access to victims in such a case, when these are is substanially stregnthened it is no longer as easily accesable as originally was intended from the manufacturer
Then there is the fitting of harnesses in road cars! most people have them running either strait dowm to the floor or to the gap between the bottom and top part of the rear seat! which are both dangerous and illegal the minimum lower angle is 30deg below horizontal any more than the 30 deg and you risk breaking your back in a roll over as the seat cannot compress where as if you did have the right angle your seat can actually compress backwards into the rear of the car area .
in the case of my mazda the harness points are directly horizontal to the point where they go through the chair
there are also other things to consider a lap sash seat belt offers the occupant to be able to 'duck' ie move in board important in a convertable  but also in a sedan coupe etc
if you fit harnesses to a car without a cage you run the risk of not being able to be pushed down effectively having your haed pushed into the roof
so it becomes as some one said before a wepon rather than a saftey device if not used with the other right parts equipment etc
Just to add it also as said increases strucutural stregnth in a side impact if my car was T boned at 60 km's an hour by a landcruiser or small 4wd for that matter it is usually most certain death as your head is right in the bumper bar line with the roll cage the bumper bar hits it first and not your head
you dont realise how dangerous the road is till you get into a small car and look up at the world! especially when we are only allowed to lower our cars a tiny bit but 4wdrivers can go up a great deal (but thats a totally different debate!)
I for one am happy with my roll cage and will take it with me to my next mx5
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