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Location:
St James, Perth
Registered:
June 2004
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Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Tue, 14 December 2004 14:02
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Hi all,
I was doing some research on some rally stuff, and i need some opinions.
Are these any good?
- AE86 Sprinter Oz spec
- AE82 Corolla
- AE92 Corolla (Hatch or Sedan?)
- KE Corolla sedans (which models?)
Thanks in advance!
DP
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Tue, 14 December 2004 14:31
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i know people use the sprinters for rallying...
or you can get a TA22 with a 2TG twin solexs and then raise it and you got a rally car... back in the days they won alot of rallys and performed awsome
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Tue, 14 December 2004 17:20
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I remember our school had a AE92 hatch rally car. Think there was a special class for them. Used to compete in rally Australia every year. Cant imagine they would have been too fast though.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Wed, 15 December 2004 01:18
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Just about anything can make an effective rally car if you put the development time and money into it.
If you're looking for a car, I'd suggest buying one already built (particularly for a first car). It's a lot cheaper and some of the R&D has been done for you.
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Wed, 15 December 2004 02:09
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STEER CLEAR OF THE SPRINTER
You will need replacement parts and panels for rallying and so why make it more expensive on yourself.
I am unsure of homologation rules and what engine/box/diff you can put in each car, but I'd recommend a KE corolla with a better engine, or maybe a T18. Or possibly a FWD, but I personally don't think they're as much fun.
Hen
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Wed, 15 December 2004 02:13
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What about an AE71 or something....
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Location:
nelson, new zealand
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Wed, 15 December 2004 03:31
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the ae82 and ae92 practically owned their class!!
some one mentioned above they had there own class... wa sprob a case if u didnt have one u had no chance! haha
id go ae92 hatch, newer and easier to get bits for
but when it comes down to it they all make good rally cars
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Wed, 15 December 2004 05:53
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yes - they would all make good rally cars... BUT - would a fwd seriously be as much fun as one of the RWD options?
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Location:
Castle Hill, Sydney
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Wed, 15 December 2004 06:09
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t-18, ke70, ae71 would all enjoy a good thrashing on the dirt!
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Wed, 15 December 2004 12:06
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Just be wary of weight, the celicas were fairly heavy. I've got a little twinky as a rally car, i chose it over the AE92 because they were a bit lighter and also cheap as chips to buy. It's got a bog stock big port 4AGE with a noisy exhaust and a cold air intake and loves to be thrashed. Pretty cheap motorsport really. 
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Wed, 15 December 2004 13:03
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| paddles wrote on Wed, 15 December 2004 22:36 |
Just be wary of weight, the celicas were fairly heavy.
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A TA22 is light and would be a pretty cool rally car.
Heaps of em around, so parts/panels are easy to find.
Throw in a 2T-G or a 3T-GTE and have fun 
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Location:
nelson, new zealand
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Wed, 15 December 2004 20:36
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ta22 easy to get parts for??? hmmm maybe you should ship some of em over here!! definitly not easy and cheap over here.
i guess its gunna come down to what you prefer fwd or rwd!
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 02:07
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Just about anything can make an effective rally car if you put the development time and money into it.
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True.
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STEER CLEAR OF THE SPRINTER
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??? Parts aren't that hard to find and the do perform very well, Think of the beloved Datto 1600's? Try to get a shell, guard etc for one of these....These are very capable of winning Outright against Rex's and EVO's in the right hands and there are still a few in the NSW Clubman series... Along with a heap of other of the same age. ie escorts, stanza... And the Gemini Cup cars.
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BUT - would a fwd seriously be as much fun as one of the RWD options?
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Setup properly, YES and alot quicker Too..Tell this is no fun? FWD->
RWD->
We were winning Til we had a small off, ripping exhaust off and bending a control arm...
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Think there was a special class for them.
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Your thinking of the AE102 7AFE Corolla Cup challenge (class N3), The Very first of the one make class's to find new talent. Ashlea James and Simon Evans when competing in these were regulars in the Top Ten. The AE92's were used in Bathurst by toyota for the same reason's one make class, find new Talent, This is where Neal Bates came from and forged his long relationship with them. N3 Class is a production class for 1601-2000cc setout by the FIA and is mostly used for international Rallies. It was chosen to keep the competion close and controlled, unlike the P3 which is modified variants.
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Just be wary of weight, the celicas were fairly heavy. I've got a little twinky as a rally car, i chose it over the AE92 because they were a bit lighter and also cheap as chips to buy. It's got a bog stock big port 4AGE with a noisy exhaust and a cold air intake and loves to be thrashed. Pretty cheap motorsport really.
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Agree, The Twin Cam AE82's rally ready can weigh in just under 1000Kg, The celica's (especially my old RA40) Struggled to get under 1100Kg, The AE102 we currently run weighed in at 1080kg at preimier state rally. The TA/RA22 Can come in 1050kg, and aren't as bad as The later RWD Celica models when trying to lose weight.
Most AE92 weigh in around the same as my AE102.
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Throw in a 2T-G or a 3T-GTE and have fun
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2T-G-> yes, 3T-GTE-> No..
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Location:
Tassie
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 02:44
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i had a 120y with a 180b motor we used for rallying.
it was perfect, light(easy to flip back on it's wheels) fairly high ground clearance and soft longish travel suspension. We never used it for proper comepetion just around the farm we had.
even with the roll cage and other safety stuff it was super light and there was never any problem with the drivetrain.
Part were easy to get aswell people were giving parts for free !!!!!.
I personally wouldn't use a front wheel drive car for rallying even if they do great in the UK.
it just spoils it for me.
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 02:44
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I should have explained myself better, I think you should steer away from an AE86 because there are other options which should have very similar potential (eg AE71, TE72, maybe even KE**) and will be much cheaper/easier to get parts/shells for.
However I am unsure on legalities of engines for each car. Maybe you can't put a 4AGE into some of them.
Hen
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 03:22
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Dunno about which of the cars you listed would be the best rally car, but one point - gravel rally is one place where FWD cars can actually outdo RWD. I'm a diehard RWD fan, but in this case... left foot braking (in FWD) = big sideways, driven front wheels = recovery from what in a RWD car would be a certain spin.
Of course it depends what you want the car for. If you're after a paddock-basher to practice dorifto rallye, then a RWD will probably be more fun. If you actually want to compete in an amateur rally, then FWD is almost mandatory to be competitive. When was the last time you saw a RWD car competing in Rally Australia?
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 03:52
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Currently having a looksy at a couple of te20 or te27 as you are allowed to run a 2tg and being a pre-'86, you can stroke, bore, change anything you want as long as the block and head are what is either approved or sold in it. ie AE71 etc, are not allowed to run a 4age  as their is no homologation with this engine... The TE20/TE27 are light, can produce the grunt and help me keep my RWD abilities in tune, which are a bit rusty lately, and should be a great car to go out and have some fun in Non Championship Rounds.
[QUOTE]I personally wouldn't use a front wheel drive car for rallying even if they do great in the UK.
[\QUOTE]
??? and the rest of the world??? Sorry Mookie, I disagree as the chuckablity of My FWD Corolla and as said before, properly setup, they too can hang their butt's out...But also a completely different drive style is needed.
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Location:
Tassie
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 04:04
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I only said the UK as i KNOW they do well there.
i don't know how they go everywhere else in the world.
I can chuck and hold both FWD and RWD sideways but for pure fun factor then i would go RWD.
If i wanted to be competitive then i would got the RWD 1st and maybe later on go to FWD depinding on how i went.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 04:08
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The use if FWD and 4WD cars at rally australia has more to do with there not being any current homologated RWD cars around the world.
Go to a ARC or state round where you dont need a currently Homologated car and you have plenty.
Go the Sprinter!!!
Have a look at club level mororsport and see what people use
Here are the places and cars from the NSSCC dirt sprint on the weekend does anybody see a patern ?? (apart from 4WD turbo cars are generally faster)
1 Darren Gee Mitsubishi Evo III
2 Brendan Thomas Subaru WRX
3 Howard Grove Suzuki
4 Paul Newman Mitsubishi VR4
5 Adam Casmiri Mazda Familia 4WD
6 Mick King Nissan Skyline
7 Carlos Casmiri Datsun 280Z
8 Molly Taylor Mitsubishi Mirage
9 Phillip Griffin Mazda BFMR
10 Ben Cullen Toyota Sprinter
11 Tim Wilkins Datsun 1600
12 Ian Wilson Toyota Celica
13 Peter Nann Mazda RX2
14 Stewart Wilkins Datsun P510
15 Russel Dixon Daihatsu Charade
16 Michael Feruglio Datsun 1200
17 David Feruglio Datsun 1200
18 Craig Franklin Gemini
19 Ross Jackson Datsun 1600
20 Scott Jackson Datsun 1600
21 Adam Phillips Gemini
22 Rick Feruglio Datsun 1200
23 David White Hyundai Excel
24 Andrew Doyle Datsun Stanza
25 Ian Lambiris Nissan Bluebird
26 David Noble Honda Civic
27 Robert Edwards Datsun 1600
28 Matt Hope Datsun 1600
29 David Worrell Gemini
30 Jeff Taylor Datsun Skyline
31 David Reynolds Ford Escort
32 Richard Troup Mazda Familia 4WD
33 Mathew Cullen Toyota Sprinter
34 Jonathan Askew Gemini
35 Mark Pugliese Mazda Protégé
36 Lance Doyle Datsun Stanza
37 Heather White Mitsubishi Sigma
38 David Smith Datsun Stanza
Ben.
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Location:
Tassie
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 04:13
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i see very few FWD cars
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 04:21
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And lots of datsuns.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 06:20
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Hello Ben... Long time No Hear. How the SPRINTER?
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The use if FWD and 4WD cars at rally australia has more to do with there not being any current homologated RWD cars around the world.
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True, and how many cheap FWD are there that can be picked up and be competitive for your average Joe? None, everyone want no less than $10-15K for a crap condition late model, So that's why there are many RWD Datto, Gemini etc out there, and prang them, well, You'll be given a new shell for nothing... thousands already built and ready to change hands.(Except the 1600's)
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does anybody see a patern ??
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Yeah....90% of the top ten Race NSWRCC, But you could include the wog's(carlos') son who's been doing this since he was a baby...
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for pure fun factor
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The Fun is Getting out there and actually do a real rally... Like Traveling down a dirty road, at 160kph+, Not worrying about cops...Traveling down track, which are only as wide as your car, such that, the trees are removing your paint... Coming into corners, flicking it, trying to setup the perfect entry, missing big arse rocks, tree....Starting to understand?.... Throwing any car around in these event's are the fun bit, and learning to keep them on the road is the other... socializing at the pub afterwards is even better! Getting Questioned By Neal Bates, well? He found out a few thing's, I found out a few things and I was very grateful he forced the 20V 4AGE issue for my model and got ARComm to pass it... was very impressed by the report, So watch out Ben I'm in You class next year!
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wanted to be competitive then i would got the RWD
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Why? It because this is only what you have driven at high speed?
This will not make you competitive, heck, having AWD still doesn't make you competitive, It's knowing your car's characteristics is what makes you competitive, trusting everything is ok, and your technique and driving style suiting what you have built...
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i see very few FWD cars
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True, Cause they cost more cause there newer..
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And lots of datsuns.
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Cheap, and usually get passed around ie Michael Feruglio Datsun 1200 use to be Nigel William's who, taught me the finer points in Rallying, He sold this after the demise of The Group 7 motorsport Championship
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 10:48
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13 Peter Nann Mazda RX2
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What a dickhead 
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Thu, 16 December 2004 11:14
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I've only done 2 events in my new car, but already I can say that destroying my gemini and then building my front wheel drive P2 car was the best thing ever for my rallying. Having those 2 front wheels hook up and go exactly where ya want 'em with the back end swinging in the breeze is simply awesome. The RWD was fun but FWD is way more precise. Gotta agree Johnny, the fun is steaming down tracks not much wider than the car at over a hundred, dodging all the stuff that doesn't move and doing it all under controlled conditions 
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Location:
Tassie
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Fri, 17 December 2004 02:48
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I've driven both at high speeds on the roads you have descibed on i much prefer the RWD over FWD mainly because i like over more than understeer.
It's just personal prefrance i guess.
but i still belive RWD is the better car
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Fri, 17 December 2004 06:00
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| Mookie wrote on Fri, 17 December 2004 10:48 |
I've driven both at high speeds on the roads you have descibed on i much prefer the RWD over FWD mainly because i like over more than understeer.
It's just personal prefrance i guess.
but i still belive RWD is the better car
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Three words for you son: Left. Foot. Brake.
Put them together (in a FWD) and you have oversteer. I'd love to learn to drive a FWD properly on gravel...
*busts out Colin McRae Rally only to find that my pedal set has accelerator and brake on a single axis, and CMR probably doesn't have that level of detail anyway, oh well, handbrake then :)*
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Fri, 17 December 2004 13:42
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i like over more than understeer.
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Mine's FWD and It OVERSTEERS!! Again, Setup plays a lot, ie spring rate, sway bars, bump, rebound.... I been waiting to hear that... Come for a drive in this year's NSWRCC winning P3 Car ie mine, we also won that class against the best in the country when they came to Sydney... and guest what? we also beat a few of the Subaru Challenge guys.
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What was the suzuki in 3rd?
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He usually drives and Evo III too..
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I supported Toymods
Toymods Club Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Fri, 17 December 2004 22:03
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Time to pimp some pictures:
| muaythaiman wrote on Fri, 17 December 2004 17:53 |
point of interest to me: 8th mitsubishi mirage! not one 1600 or sprinter in front!
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Mirage Cyborg
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What was the suzuki in 3rd?
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Ballistic turbo-charged Vitara
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| Quote: |
13 Peter Nann Mazda RX2
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What a dickhead
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Why??! This thing was awesome!
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Sat, 18 December 2004 12:39
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| Quote: |
Quote:
Quote:
13 Peter Nann Mazda RX2
What a dickhead
Why??! This thing was awesome!
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Ok...thats an awesome shot  , but if its an original RX-2, IMHO its sacriledge. RX-2s are rare enough without one being turned into a rally car, that will likely get smashed up in the long run  . I know its an unfair comparrison, but imagine doing that to a 2000gt!
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Sun, 19 December 2004 22:58
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but if its an original RX-2, IMHO its sacriledge
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Better Not come to a clubman rally... You'll leave Deeply Disturbed at what you see running  These just arn't the only rare vehcile's running... What about a 2-door 1600 (A really P510!)
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Sun, 19 December 2004 23:06
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what about classic adelaide when they run the likes of 300sl mercs, yikes
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Sun, 19 December 2004 23:34
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Bahhh, the mirage only beat me by 0.28 of a second in the end,
ony because i didnt finish my last 2 runs due to the roll, otherwise i should have finished 7th or 8th,
We have just purchased a club car to do club events in, so we can stop destroying the good rally car when it doesnt count,
It cost a whole $200, its not a toyota, its not RWD, it doesnt weigh anything. i will post a pick up soon.
Ill give everyone a hint, it was recently in the cars 4 sale section.
Ben.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Mon, 20 December 2004 00:30
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Don't make me break out the old FWD vs. RWD thread ! !
I will, I'm not scared of the retribution!
I've done the country-road dirt drift thing in my old commodore - and I can well appreciate how frustrating (SLOW!) it is, trying to get the power down with hardly any weight over the driven wheels. THAT's why FWDs are quick rally machines - traction!
I think I've mentioned before, Rick bates's win in a historic dirt rally in a 911 porsche? I also recall a couple of mid-engined, RWD Lancias that did O.K. in the WRC a few years ago... . .
All that aside, MAN do the commodores and Falcons (aussie car class) look slow, heavy and dumb on the dirt - all power oversteer and going nowhere. The 4WD dirt-rockets are positively scinilating by comparison! I'd like to see something like this with rally struts/springs and dirt tyres compete:
Pretty sure it weighs in under a ton, with roll cage and extinguisher installed
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Mon, 20 December 2004 01:40
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| Quote: |
classic adelaide when they run the likes of 300sl mercs
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Tarmac... 300sl... hmm... Yeah I would!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Mon, 20 December 2004 10:22
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| Johnny wrote on Mon, 20 December 2004 12:40 |
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classic adelaide when they run the likes of 300sl mercs
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Tarmac... 300sl... hmm... Yeah I would!
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You haven't read the horror stories about the swing-arm rear suspension then. Apparently VERY SCARY if you lift off the throttle mid corner, or turn-in with too much vigour.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Mon, 20 December 2004 10:51
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Apparently VERY SCARY if you lift off the throttle mid corner, or turn-in with too much vigour.
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All part of the fun.
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Location:
Melbourne - NthSubs
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Mon, 20 December 2004 11:11
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BAHAHAAHAHHAA
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Do these cars make good rally cars?
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Mon, 20 December 2004 13:48
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| Quote: |
What about a 2-door 1600 (A really P510!)
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Aren't there about 3 of these things in the country???
I saw an Australian website dedicated to the 510, and I have to say that I wouldn't mind owning one. Good looks +raaaaarrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeee
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