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Registered:
May 2004
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1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Sat, 25 December 2004 05:06
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Hi Everyone, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.
I'm living in Thailand with an Opel Omega (Holden) running a 1JZ GTE Auto. I had a few problems a while back, but thanks to some good advice here and other forums, now were running OK.
It turns out the ceramic blades from the back of the turbo had all but disintegrated, and the wiring could have been done better by my 7 year old son.
Rather than replace the ceramic turbo with another of the same ilk, I went out and bought a whopping Garrett turbo. I believe it originates from a truck, but with the turbo exhaust replaced with a smaller unit, I'm assured its compatable with the 1JZ (I've set the boost at 0.9). The lettering on the turbo says "GARRETT A/R 50", if that means anything to anybody. I've previously fitted a FMIC, and a 2.5 inch stainless exhaust with no cats.
Rewired the whole car, also added a SARD fuel regulator, replaced the leaking BOV, chopped out the ABS and stuck on some Skyline calipers and discs (the OEM brakes were terrible, spongy as hell and NSR wheel locked up under heavy braking, a problem I couldn't get rid of, tried everything).
My real question is about boost control and fuelling.
The car is fast, (at least much faster than before). But I have not touched the ECU, the injectors, and I have no boost controller.
My concern is that I am restricting the car by running the stock management/fuel system. The engine is pretty much standard, except for the big turbo.
Now I believe this turbo can safely boost at 1.2, perhaps even 1.5, but obviously the factory ECU shuts the fuel of at 1 bar. I see much talk of boost controllers, SAFC, greddy e-manage and so on, but I am completely lost as to what it all means. If I buy one of these such devices will this override the factory ECU (the car is auto) and allow me to boost more and adjust the fuel automatically ? What kind of power gains am I looking at ? Also, should I be looking at bigger injectors ?
Basically, I want to make the most of this engine and turbo, without getting carried away. It goes well enough now, but I reckon with a bit more meddling I could see some big increases in power. Over to you guys !
Thanks in advance,
INTJ
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Sat, 25 December 2004 07:31
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Welcome INTJ,
Very unique conversion you have there. I would love to see some photos of it.
You may like to direct your questions to some of the people at the Toyota Soarer forum, as there are many people who have modified the 1JZ-GTE engine on there also.
http://www.alsc.aus.as/
My suggestions:
* Yes, larger fuel injectors will be a great help. Will prevent the mixtures leaning out and possibly blowing a piston or two.
* SAFC will help tune the mixtures (with or without new injectors) to give best power and efficiency.
* There aren't many (almost zero) aftermarket ECUs which will plug directly into the factory wiring and handle the automatic transmission. The use of a GReddy eManage may help you out instead.
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Location:
Emerald
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Sat, 25 December 2004 09:44
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Hi INTJ, the car sounds very cool.
Seems like a semi-similar setup to my soarer, it is a uzz31 with a 1jz and w58 supra 5 speed conversion. The twins were replaced with a Blitz KKK27 turbo, which is rated up to 800hp I think? Currently I'm running 17 pound boost.
Controlling the boost there is a HKS EVC II and the engine management is controlled by a microtech mtx 12. The injectors have been upgraded to 880cc items, I'm pretty sure. The microtech is ok, but I think a few other guys run with the apexi items.
As Soarer mentioned, jump on alsc as they know their stuff over there about 1jz's and I they are a really friendly bunch over there! I have learnt a fair bit over there, and am still learning a bit each time I jump on!
If you need anything brought over to Thailand I will be in Bangkok - Ko Samui in just under 2 weeks, so send me a PM as I am on holidays at the moment and am trying to stay off the computer a bit 
All the best with the car, sounds pretty cool.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Sun, 26 December 2004 04:00
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Larger injectors will help! 440cc from the 2JZ-GTE drop in replacement, with better off boost respnse.
E-Manage works well with 1JZ auto's, being a piggybacked ecu.
Just fuel trimming alone will return 10+rwkw on the standard injectors as well as improve the torque curve.
E-manage removes the boost cut as well.
Have you done all the usual air intake and exhaust mods? These are very effective power increases.
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Sun, 26 December 2004 07:40
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for all your replies so far.
Well, things are a little clearer than yesterday. But I'm still a bit confused.
What I need is something(s) that will :-
1) Remove the 1 bar boost limit,
2) Monitor and adjust the air flow and fuel mix to optimum levels through the rev range so I can safely boost at the higher pressure (probably 1.2 bar), gaining maximum performance from the big turbo without detonation,
3) Do all this without affecting the operation of the autobox.
Now the first thing that is apparent is I need bigger injectors, 440's from 2JZ, thats agreed on by everyone, and no problem with the sourcing or fitting.
Some say SAFC, some say E-Manage, some say both. What are the precise functions of each ? Do they both do the same job, work in parallel, or would they work against each other ? Remember this car is automatic (for the time being). Looking at my list above, which is more suited to my needs ? What kind of power gains have you guys got using the SAFC/E-Manage ? Anyone running a big single on a 1JZ ?
My other consideration is the tuning of these devices. What exactly is involved in proper installation ? Do I need a dyno ? From what I can gather, either of these devices can have a negative effect on performance and reliability if fitted/tuned incorrectly. Finding someone skilled enough here to do the set up for me could be a problem. Is there no such item which does all this automatically, ie. self learns ("plug and play") ?
Sorry for so many questions, it just seems the more I read the more complicated it becomes. Help !
Icarus, I see your car is a manual (nice), so I'm not sure the mods you've done would be compatible with my auto. The manual box is definately the way to go (for me, anyway), I feel like I lose so much control and driveability with the auto. I really appreciate the offer to bring something over for me, but I think I can get everything here at a reasonable price (with warranty). A new Apex SAFC II here works out at AUD$433. Enjoy your stay in Thailand !
BTW, yes, I've done the exhaust (2.5 stainless, no cats), and a huge HKS filter.
Cheers,
INTJ
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2003
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Sun, 26 December 2004 21:45
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| INTJ wrote on Sun, 26 December 2004 18:40 |
What I need is something(s) that will :-
1) Remove the 1 bar boost limit,
2) Monitor and adjust the air flow and fuel mix to optimum levels through the rev range so I can safely boost at the higher pressure (probably 1.2 bar), gaining maximum performance from the big turbo without detonation,
3) Do all this without affecting the operation of the autobox.
Now the first thing that is apparent is I need bigger injectors, 440's from 2JZ, thats agreed on by everyone, and no problem with the sourcing or fitting.
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1) emanage will remove it, safc will not. Any full aftermarket ECU like wolf, haltech etc. can also be used and piggybacked to stock ecu so that it can still control the auto. that is what I am doing.
2) safc has worst tuning resolution, then emanage and then a full aftermarket ecu will be better again. However, if you don't have anyone to install or tune then that is obviously a problem.
3) whatever you use, as long as it is piggybacked onto stock ecu it should be fine.
also, I would go for 550cc's off US 2jz supra if possible or some Sard items. the US ones are low impedance so I am not sure if the emanage could handle them without resistor packs. I know that most aftermarket ECU's can.
I would recommend checking the price difference of the emanage with all harnesses and a basic model aftermarket ecu like microtech ltx12, wolf 3d etc. I was going to use an emanage but in the end I thought I would go the whole way as I didn't want to be using all sorts of interceptors like the americans end up doing.
Also, the turbo sounds like some sort of t04 variant as they are quite often .5 a/r fronts. Do you know the rear a/r? Do you know the compressor and turbine wheel diameters?
I am not sure if the 2.5" exhaust would be up to scratch for a big single turbo conversion. eg. I am running a 4" dump pipe for my 650hp turbo that then goes into 3" half way down the car.
so find out what ecu some performance shops use over there and get some quotes I reckon
good luck
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Sun, 26 December 2004 21:46
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oh yeah and get that thing on a dyno asap to check the air fuel ratio. As the stock ecu runs rich as you may find it could be close to 12.5:1 air fuel ratio already?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Sun, 26 December 2004 23:39
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The E-Manage needs resistor packs to run the 550's that Chris mentioned.
First step is to get it on a dyno. Find out where you are and what your A/FR is.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Mon, 27 December 2004 02:06
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I was going to say something about the 2.5" System, but no cats, makes up for it. I think you should be running at least 3" Diameter. Sounds unique, any pics? I think i saw one of these cars last week.
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Mon, 27 December 2004 04:27
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Opel Omega never arrived in Australia. They were the equivalent to a Commodore in the UK, badged under the Vauxhall banner.
My estimate is that it's somewhere between the size of an Astra/Vectra and a Commodore.
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Mon, 27 December 2004 06:06
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Hi,
In the UK we had the "Vauxhall Carlton" which I believe was the "Holden Calais" in Oz, and the "Vauxhall Senator" which was the "Holden Commodore". Both these models were discontinued in 1994 to make way for a new model, the "Vauxhall Omega", or the "Opel Omega B" as it was known in mainland Europe (because the UK "Vauxhall Carlton" had been badged as the "Opel Omega" since 1986 outside of the UK. Europe never got the 3.8 V6 engine as far as I'm aware. There are a still a fair few older Holden Calais with the V6 buzzing around here in Thailand.
Some blurb from a UK "buying used" website :
"The Omega was to be the Vauxhall that BMW, Mercedes and Audi customers could buy with confidence. Launched in 1994, it was intended to blur the difference between mainstream executive cars and their prestige sector counterparts. And it has. Though there aren't many about on the used market, they make desirable buys. An Omega is built just as well as any rival from Bavaria, Stuttgart or Ingolstadt. Yet market perception continues to place a lower value on that Vauxhall badge; hence the fact that a second-hand version is far better value"
and
" The 1994 Vauxhall/Opel Omega was an all-new car with a modern exterior design but a traditional rear-wheel drive chassis. The engine range was all-new: Four cylinder engines were a 2.0 L petrol and a 2.5 L turbo-diesel which were reasonably refined and gave acceptable performance. But the V6 engines (2.5 L and 3.0 L) were a far better bet. The top of the range Omega, with the 3.0 L V6, was the most expensive Vauxhall/Opel on the market at ฃ30,000. The Omega saloon was extremely spacious and comfortable, and the estate was capable of holding seven occupants. From 1997 to 2001, the top three-litre saloon was sold in the US as a captive import badged as the Cadillac Catera.
As with its predecessor, the Omega platform was heavily modified and enlarged as the basis of the Australian Holden Commodore (from 1997)"
I think its closer in size to a Commodore than an Astra/Vectra. Its quite a big car.
I have just found an ad in a magazine for a dyno shop that are also licensed Microtech dealers. What are the advantages of using an aftermarket ECU such as the Microtech LTX12("piggybacked" I would presume, to keep the gearbox control from the OEM ECU) over the E-Manage or SAFC ?
Actually, the E-manage is fractionally cheaper than the SAFC2 here.
"get that thing on a dyno asap to check the air fuel ratio. As the stock ecu runs rich as you may find it could be close to 12.5:1 air fuel ratio already"
If this was the case, would I gain anything significant by using any of these products ?
As the consensus seems to be E-manage is better than SAFC (please correct me if I'm wrong), why is the Apexi product so popular ? Is it simply down to price (ie. the E-Manage being more expensive than the SAFC, which its not here) ?
Cheers,
INTJ
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Mon, 27 December 2004 06:14
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Thanks for clearing all that up INTJ. Very informative
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Mon, 27 December 2004 23:22
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a safc can only change the amount of fuel by a positive or negative factor at 11 or 16 points. (can't remember) ACMTT said it before.
an emanage can do fuel and ignition and tuned by laptop. I think that one has a 16X16 map to tune with.
My wolf 3d ecu can tune every 125rpm and has 16 positions of throttle/load to tune against. I assume other ecu's would be similar to this.
If the ratios are already at 12.5:1 then there probably isn't much to be gained except tunability throughout the rev range. I highly doubt that the map would be perfect though. So you may be able to gain some mid end or something like that.
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Registered:
May 2004
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Re: 1JZ single - boost control/fuelling Q's
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Sun, 06 February 2005 08:06
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Hi Guys,
Just a quick update. After some smoky problems with the Garrett, I went for an IHI G6 turbo, slightly bigger, Emanage, 550cc injectors, HKS electronic boost controller.
Got the car on a dyno last week, making 292 RWHP. There's a copy of the dyno sheet on my thread at ALSC :-
http://www.alsc.aus.as/messages/3/32758.html?11076 76242
I would welcome any feedback regarding this graph. As far as I can gather my intercooler is too small (EVO), the car was making more power at 1.3 bar than 1.5.
But overall, delighted. It seems to have so much more high range power than before.
Just some fine tuning to the suspension next week, then should be on the road. I will post some pics of the car as soon as I get it back.
I would like to say a big thanks to all for the excellent advice both here and on Toymods. It would have been impossible to do what I have done without the guru's that frequent these forums.
Cheers.
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