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Registered:
February 2003
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Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Mon, 10 January 2005 22:54
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If I have increased lower control arm lengths, and lengthened tie rod ends to effectively induce negative camber, how do i measure the toe in/out settings measured from the tie rods?
What i did was measure the old control arms, and then measure the new longer ones, take away the difference, and added that distance on the tie rods as opposed to the old ones.
Is there a way to tell from the angle of the steering arms?
Also, has anyone else had a problem with fitting 30mm + RCA's and had issues with the control arms scraping the rotors? Looks like the grinder will come out, but surely my brakes can't be that big 
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Mon, 10 January 2005 23:00
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Yes, I had issues with the control arms scraping my rotors (without RCA's!), I ground the lip of the control arm off a bit and flattened the rest with a hammer, and also shaved the hubs a little so that the discs sat further away from the control arms. And of course, shaved the calipers appropriately to still stay centered. All of that overlooked by an engineer and approved of course. Unfortunately this means a lot of wheels don't fit on my car anymore because the calipers stick too far out from the hub...
As for wheel alignment, you can do a temp one by straightening the wheels as best you can and putting a tape measure in front and behind the wheel and trying to get it as even as you can. Then, drive to your local wheel alignment shop and get them to do it properly 
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Mon, 10 January 2005 23:10
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yeah i was thinking of using my tape measure friend, i just hope i got it right first time when i measured the old and new arms.
I was thinking of adding 1 degree of toe out, is that appropriate?
also, my castor arms are so tightly screwed on that they don't wanna budge (chassis side). solution?
demuire - what arms/camber/castor/toe settings are you on?
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Mon, 10 January 2005 23:19
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Don't need to measure the arms (cause with different steering angles etc it'll make your measurements inaccurate anyway), just measure the front of the tyre, and the back of the tyre. This will be good enough as a temporary measurement to get you to a wheel alignment place. Wheel alignments don't cost that much, get one done!
As for toe out, up to you... It will make your turn in better, but make the car more unstable at higher speeds. I'm running 1mm toe in.
Castor arms, 4D40, some time, and a big spanner. You could try some heat too maybe.
I'm running Scorpion/Sigma arms, -3.5 deg camber, +3.5 deg castor, -1mm toe.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Mon, 10 January 2005 23:32
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Yeah just use a tape measure to get toe settings in check then take it to get a wheel alignment.
Its no point measuring the differences of your old settings vs new as with toe we are talking 1mm difference tie rod will end up over 1 degree change at the wheel. So you will never get it accurate doing it that way.
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Mon, 10 January 2005 23:46
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ok sounds good.
what's a good place to have a wheel alignment? i heard those laser ones are pretty accurate. Are those repuatable big names like Pedder's shit to go to? I haven't had one done on a performance car.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Mon, 10 January 2005 23:58
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I use the local bob janes, as they have some unreal equipment and can get it very accurate.
I find the people who work on the alignment system not real switched on unless its all factory settings..
So normally I take it to them, ask them if I can over look the alignment and tell them what settings I want.
The guys there are good and let me tell them what toe, castor, camber settings I want and I can see it all being done and they print out a report after with all the info on it.
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Mon, 10 January 2005 23:58
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Most any wheel alignment place these days is as good as the next. It's the *tuning* bit of it (deciding what settings to set it on) that makes the difference. Also, if you want something unconventional (like dialing in a lot a lot of castor or something like that, or a lot of toe out), some shops won't do it, so ask in advance. But yes, if you already know what settings you want then most any shop will be as good as the next.
I send my car to Pedders in Geebung (Qld), but only because I find the guy who works there quite good at working out settings that would work, and he's worked on a few of my mates rally cars. Fulcrum Suspensions in Qld have also worked on quite a few race cars, including a lot of older ones, so they'll probably have a pretty good idea as well. But you're not in Qld, so all that is moot for you...
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 00:03
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| demuire wrote on Tue, 11 January 2005 10:58 |
But you're not in Qld, so all that is moot for you...
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hmmm, would they freak out at -4, or -5 deg camber?
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 00:06
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Probably haha.. They freaked out that I wanted 2 degrees.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 00:08
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Haha, probably. They might even get you to sign a declaration that that's what you *really* want
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 00:23
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haha
cuz i trial fitted my wheels last night and i was scraching my head as to how far out the camber is. There is seriously about 4 degrees, i dunno if they would even let me have an alignment  let alone have my car on the hoist, i can't even drive on one without taking my front off 
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 00:58
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Haha, that would be a problem. Is your car even height legal anymore then?
4 degrees isn't unheard of in an older style race car, but any more than that is probably rather extreme and more for looks than anything else. I'm running -3.5 degrees on my car and even that looks a little odd
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 02:19
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hmm height legal? i think not, the old cigarette pack hardly gets the squeeze
yeah i'll see what the actual degree it is, should be fairly interesting 
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 02:35
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Just remember that more castor is better than more camber. Castor gives you dynamic camber, camber just stuffs up your straight line grip.
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 22:53
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ok dudes, the car is back on road, and what a difference there is - both good and bad.
The good.
-Front is about 15mm-20mm lower, in turn leveling out the car as it was sitting abit higher than the back before.
-Turn in very good, resulting from excessive (too much atm) toe out
-Bump steer feels better from RCA's
-Looks hot 
The bad.
- Rubbing on guards excessively (even driving straight!) on corners it scrubs hard
- Steering is WAAAAY too light (feels like power steering  )
- No control of direction (if i don't hold the wheel, the car will just either go left, or go right)
- Steering has not much response - feels loose and delayed
I measured up the toe out and there is about 35mm difference - giving about 17.5mm toe out on each side (but left side seems to have more) so this would explain the unpredictable steering of either going left or right.
But what i want to know is, how did everyone find their RCA's when first installed? If it is going to make my steering so light then i much prefer the old setting, hard and stiff.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 23:03
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RCA's shouldn't really affect steering feel. Fix your toe out problem, then go for a drive again.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 23:41
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Light steering could be caused by not enough castor.
Those toe measurements are shocking! Fix that right away before your tyres are totally screwed. You really want it neutral or at the most 1 - 2mm difference.
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Tue, 11 January 2005 23:47
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| TurboRA28 wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 10:41 |
Light steering could be caused by not enough castor.
Those toe measurements are shocking! Fix that right away before your tyres are totally screwed. You really want it neutral or at the most 1 - 2mm difference.
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haha yeah, i was shocked by the maths, hopefully, that will be corrected today.
castor could be the problem too, i might wound it all the way positive.
i'm just trying to think - whinding the tie rods OUTWARD from the steering rack should fix my toe out problem right?
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Wed, 12 January 2005 00:01
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Yeah if you extend the tie rod length, it will turn the wheels in. Just keep changing them, being careful to keep each side the same length. Then measure front of tyre and rear with a tape measure until its equal.
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Rack & Pinion toe settings, camber added
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Wed, 12 January 2005 00:41
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Positive castor is a good thing. Not negative castor. If you have urethane inner control arms careful how much castor you wind on, they don't like it.
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