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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Location:
Canberra, ACT
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 04:48
 
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one of their modern twincams might be a good place to start... as in the Echo/Platz/etc, ie. the SZ and NZ engine families. Could also look at older E-family engines
Toyota really haven't made many engines in that capacity class, at least not powerful ones. K family OHV engines are tough as nails but not overly powerful stock
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 04:52
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the motor must be n/a aswell and 4cylinder of coarse. im not worried of the stock motor is not to powerful i just would like to know weather i can get a motor in those specs that has potential to produce that kind of power.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 04:54
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the motor must be n/a as well and 4cylinder cylinder of coarse. im not worried if the stock motor is not to powerful i just would like to know weather i can get a motor in those specs that has potential to produce that kind of power.
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Location:
Canberra, ACT
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 06:12
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I reckon the SZ or NZ motors, then. Some people have built some pretty ridiculous K engines though
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 06:26
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cheers buddy.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 11:15
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there are different motor rules for bike motors, but yes they can be used. i just wanted to go by Toyota power to be different as people using wacky motors like Datsun etc. and are finding more power than the most common 1000cc, fzr motorbike and Suzuki swift motors. but anyone with any further information feel free to contribute.
thanx.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 11:31
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what about this puppy, may not be financially viable...
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750cc watercooled 8 cylinder, 90 degree vee configuration, bore and stroke 56 x 38mm, 'Flat' (180) crankshaft design, 6 speed close ratio cassette-style gearbox, 4 valves per cylinder, 17,000 rpm redline (race motors 19,000rpm), 120 kW power output projected.
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http://home.mira.net/~iwd/750specs.html
They re building a 1L version but no specs 
tim
oops, I didn't read the 4cyl thing. Sorry.
[Updated on: Sun, 16 January 2005 11:33]
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 11:42
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thats ok the minimum amount of cylinders is 4 but there isnt anyone that i know of that uses any more than 4cylinders as anything bigger weighs more plus less torque. but i really want aq toyota but if the reality is that there is no way to get nearly 160hp out of a toyota then i might just go a datsun or maybe even a renult.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 11:45
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what is it to run?
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 11:49
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Its for a compact speedcar. but any suggestions for car motors other than toyota ones tha meet these specs.
cheers.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 11:54
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I reckon the capacity is better than the milti valve twincams.
Find an old chugger and give it huge compression 
the only toyota I could think of would be the old K series. I remember seeing a pic of a "race" K-motor, looked horn...
I'll try to find it.
Tim.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 11:55
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thanks tim.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 11:57
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Do you race at the moment? What are you using now?
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 12:02
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na not at the moment i have faimily in the catorogry and a few friend al running diffirent configerations (swifts,kawasaki,yamaha,dihatsu) the fzr yamaha is by far the best but he has spent several thousand on the car nearly twice asmuch as the other drivers and noticably he is at the front. but if ya can find a pic of a k motor and maybe some spec and the potential power that can be generated from it would be appreciated.
Cheers.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 12:17
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The engine I'm thinking of was a TRD thing. Hell expensive and probably only a couple made. I think it had 4valve heads come to think of it so it wouldn't be within the class guidelines.
Does anyone run quad carbs? are people after high revs or is it better to aim for the torque?
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 12:24
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people usually run quad throttle bodies eg. kinser injection, quad keheins or some even use twin webbes. i think i kow of the motor your thinking of it has a blue cam cover and green block.
I wish i could have that i would cream every one but its not a reality. but do you have anymore infomation on old toyotas, them must be able to run on methanol.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 12:54
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nah, I don't have a clue, I don't even know what requirements methanol has.
I'd presume that a bike engine would be the way to go, they are fairly cheap and have way more HP/litre than car motors.
for the price of a 3/4K worked to make over 130HP you could get a 1000cc superbike that makes it stock. with a big exhaust, big cams and some head work, I can't see why 150-160 isn't do-able without methanol.
Tim.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 12:56
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i may even go towards a bike motor but the inital purchase is the killer.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 13:04
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yeah, it's all $$$
yzf R1's pout out 180HP standard, and you can buy the bikes for as little as $8k. You'd have to ring wreckers to see what prices the engines went for.
old FJ1200's go for as little as 3K complete. they make about 135 standard I think. That's what they use in those aussie racer things.
even if an R1 motor is $3k, you wouldn't have much left after making a datto 1200 or something a 160HP beast would you?
Tim.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Sun, 16 January 2005 13:10
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there are blokes out there with dattos running with standard fzr's. but the gsxr and fzr seem to be the way to go as they are light all alloy motors.The only prob is that the car opperate without gear boxes and cluthces so ther is a fair bit of dicking around with a motor bike as my uncle has a kawasaki with a g-box and it is noting but trouble. thats why i was leading towards a car motor. also the motor bike motors have been known to crack exhasust studs and cam covers and they are mounted purpendicular to the axel and are diff driven.
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Mon, 17 January 2005 00:29
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hayabusa engine
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Mon, 17 January 2005 01:36
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pity you can;t turbo the bugger...
there's a megasquirted hayabusa turbo motor making over 600hp in a land speed car
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor(compact speedcar motor)
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Mon, 17 January 2005 08:00
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Here are the complete rule for motors
ENGINE
4.01 Production car type engines. Two valve with pushrods 1300cc + 10% overbore
(maximum = 1430cc).
4.02 Production car type engines. Two valve with single overhead cam 1300cc + 8%
overbore (maximum = 1404cc).
4.03 Production car type engines. Two valve with twin overhead cam 1200cc + 6%
overbore (maximum = 1272cc).
4.04 Production car type engines. Multivalve 1050cc + 6% overbore (maximum = 1113cc).
4.05 Production motorcycle type engines. Two valve 1050cc + 6% overbore (maximum =
1113cc).
4.06 Production motorcycle type engines. Multivalve 1000cc + 6% overbore (maximum =
1060cc).
4.07 Two stroke engines are limited to 1000cc plus an overbore of 6% *(SWEPT
VOLUME) (maximum = 1060cc).
4.08 All engines over 1113cc must be car type and water cooled.
4.09 Rotary engines: the maximum capacity for rotary engines not to exceed 1000cc total
swept volume and restricted to no peripheral porting.
4.10 Supercharger and Turbochargers permitted provided the total capacity of the motor
does not exceed the limit set for that particular design of the motor. I.e. TOHC =
714cc, SOHC = 785cc, P.R.E = 857cc, with no overboring allowed.
4.11 No restrictions on carburetors or fuel injection size, type or quantity.
4.12 Engine must be located in front of the Driver.
4.13 Any type of motor may be used, provided it is in line with the above, however, if any
doubts exists about the legality of an engine due to technical advances in design, then
any such motor MUST be approved by the Association. It is the responsibility of the
Member to provide all relevant details concerning engine design and specifications.
4.14 Adjustable computer engine management systems e.g.: Motec or Haltech permitted.
4.15 Radio operated management systems are not permitted.
4.16 Double pulse or Sarich type engines or their derivatives are not permitted during this
period.
So if anyone has an parcticle idea for a mega hp machine that wont cost inexcess of 7000 i would glady like to hear it
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Mon, 17 January 2005 08:03
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If you want a Toyota engine that meets those requirements I'd be looking to buy a 3K from a clubman racer and give it a freshen up. They made some pretty serious power out of those little things.
I don't know that this would really be competitive in the class though.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor
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Tue, 18 January 2005 06:28
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bump
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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De stroking a motor
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Tue, 18 January 2005 08:21
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is it worth it if i have the money to spend. and to what extent could i go. I still want a toyota motor in my compact speedcar, and i want some serious power could i even de stroke a 4age or mabe something a bit diffirent to achieve these engine specs. and get power to rival 180hp??
Cheers
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: De stroking a motor
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Tue, 18 January 2005 08:36
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The problem with destroking something like a 4A is that you will be putting in a engine that was designed to be a 1600 as a 1000cc engine. This means the engine block is big enough and heavy enough to be a 1600 but you aren't getting the power to make up for all that bulk.
I say destroke a 2NZ-FE if you want to destroke an engine. That's the Echo engine. It's an alloy block engine with a nice little twin cam head. the engine is fairly long stroke to begin with so destroking it would be good for it. It also runs shimless buckets. You'll have to have a fair amount of customer parts made but I reckon it would be a kick arse project. How much fun would it be telling people it's an Echo engine after you beat them?
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: De stroking a motor
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Tue, 18 January 2005 08:43
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What is the cost estimate and things id have to do?
I know id have to sleve the barrels and maybe machine a new crank, but wot other thing do you guys say would be a must for de stroking?
Id do all the porting and motec computers and maybe if im reallly keen kinser injection. If I know for sure that a healthy $160+hp motor can be built i will take on the project.
so anyone got any estimates on cost and maybe a wild guess at hp.
i know it would be very hard to estimate but will someone please give me a educated honest figure.
Cheers andrew.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: De stroking a motor
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Tue, 18 January 2005 09:23
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I don't see why you'd have to sleave the block unless there is strength issues. You will have to get a crank made and then you'll need longer con-rods which is a good thing as it will reduce the side loads on the cylinder walls and also allow higher revs.
You'll have to get custom cams made possibly with adjustable scissor gears to set them how you want.
With a bunch of head work some serious cams and a tonne of compression I reckon it should be possible to hit your target. Of course there is going to have to be a heap of development work done but that's par for the course in any racing engine program.
Honestly though nobody can tell you how much power it will make because it hasn't been done before to the best of my knowledge. I'd advise getting your hands on some engine simulation software and all the specs for the engine then have a play around and see what results you can get.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: De stroking a motor
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Tue, 18 January 2005 09:27
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Thanx for the reply
were could i get some of this software from and do you know of any names of programes.
Cheers Joshstix for your help 
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Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor(compact speedcar motor)
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Tue, 18 January 2005 09:35
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all the fast guys use these but i want to be diffirent and get power a little unconvetually(spelling) by usiny a toyota.
two strokes are two tempromental and annoying to tune. and in an earlier post i said motor cycle motors are a bit of a no go for me, the also have gearboxes built in and are a bitch to mount as you cant bolt them to the firewall.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Tue, 18 January 2005 09:55
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What's the deal with turbo's then? you can only have half the capacity?
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Tue, 18 January 2005 10:03
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once apon a time there was a turbo car wining everything with those specs. so there is not much if a disadvantage as gsxr600 motors cranking out serious pover when turbo'ed but they are very hard to get tuned to run well thats why there arnt many of them. but the only one turbo car i can think of was fast a bloke that owned his own turbo shop. but they can still keep up dont you worry.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Tue, 18 January 2005 10:16
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Well if you could build a strong enough motor then you could pump more than 30PSI no worries, that's more than 2X the capacity. so a tiny turbo multivalve would net you the best power.
the suzuki cappacino has a 660cc turbo. you could find out if toyota has a simmilar 'k' class car/engine. It wouldn't be cheap getting it to handle the boost though. I rebuild with tough internals would be needed I think.
If you wanted to be a little expiremental then you could rig up a blower and convert a little (700cc) motor to 2 stroke ala Orbital engines, although I don't know how much would be involved there. It'd sure be different though...
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Tue, 18 January 2005 13:19
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If you've got a US-millitary type budget, you could probably pick any bottom end you wanted and then build a head from scratch for it. But that's just being silly now 
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Tue, 18 January 2005 13:29
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The group 7 3K was dry sumped, quad slide throttles immaculately painted and had a beautiful set of extractors on it. They were only supplied through Toyota Motor Corp in Japan. The 2TG was designated a 100E as a 16v and then as a 151E and 18RG was 152E and the 3K got 16valves too.
To much work to do that now. Toysport used to have one but it's gone. They do have a 152E which at $9500- is a bargan next to the 3m at $25K (but that does incluse g/box)
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Tue, 18 January 2005 23:10
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I just want to clarify that the racing spec 16V Toyota motors are the following;
3K/4K 16V version is called 150E
2TG 16V version is called 151E
18RG 16V version is called 152E
And finally the most famous motor of them all was the 503E which was a 2.1Ltr turbo and used three different versions;
Qualifying and sprints - 1000hp (and has been quoted at 1300hp)
Racing - 800hp
Endurance - 600hp
My advise to you Meat_Rack is to build a 3k/4k push-rod. These do rev and make the power when the compression and right combination is entered into the equation. I saw an article of a 1300 pushrod K motor making about 190hp from memory and revving at very high revs (from memory it's about 1100rpm, but don't quote me on that). I'll see if i can dig it up.
Another alternative would be to locate a 150E which would be extremely difficult and then there's spare parts. These were released with dry sump and mechanical injection with quad throttle bodies. Being that they are rarer than rocking horse shit my first option would best suit your needs.
Other wise destroking the 4AG 20V would be worth considering. I've heard that using anything other than Toda cams (like regrinds) on the 20V heads just don't work and in-fact they loose power.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Tue, 18 January 2005 23:47
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| mrshin wrote on Wed, 19 January 2005 00:19 |
If you've got a US-millitary type budget, you could probably pick any bottom end you wanted and then build a head from scratch for it. But that's just being silly now
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If you've got that sort of budget go and buy a moto GP engine from one of last years bikes. That would make a midget speedway car hammer.
AS to the engine simulation software there's a lot around take a look with google, some that I've seen are engine analyser and desktop dyno.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Wed, 19 January 2005 01:58
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Id love to see a destroked 20valve.
some nice toda cams and gears, metal head gasket, aftermarket computer, forged pistons...
sweet
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Wed, 19 January 2005 02:03
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| Starfire wrote on Wed, 19 January 2005 12:28 |
Id love to see a destroked 20valve.
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Didn't someone do this (destroke a 4AG to 1000cc in a MR2 - AW11) for salt flat speed record racing ? In the US ?
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: most powerful small toyota motor (De sroking a motor)
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Wed, 19 January 2005 02:08
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It was done in an SW20 destroked to 1500 then to 1000cc for the two different classes and also run as bot hturbo and NA. When it was turbo I think they were running somehwere around 50psi.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: (De sroking a motor) 2NZ-FE
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Wed, 19 January 2005 07:08
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Im looking to spend crap all on the motor. But i may have about 6k to spend in the future on the de-stroking head work pistons ect.
Does anyone have an idea on how much a 2NZ-FE long block would cost? It doesnt have to be out of a running car as all the guts will be replaced.
Cheers.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: (De sroking a motor) 2NZ-FE
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Wed, 19 January 2005 10:59
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bump-o-rama
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2005
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
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Wed, 19 January 2005 13:12
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Your budget doesn't sound anything like enough to me. I don't think you'd even do well with one of the common engines let alone doing something different and custom for $6K.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
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Thu, 20 January 2005 10:08
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well with this budget i can buy a frz and get the geabox set to a 1:1 ratio get it cry sumped, injection and pay for someone to do all for me.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
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Thu, 20 January 2005 10:23
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| Meat_rack wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 21:08 |
well with this budget i can buy a frz and get the geabox set to a 1:1 ratio get it cry sumped, injection and pay for someone to do all for me.
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Gee, tyhat sounds like what I've been saying all along 
Except I like the R1 motor more
At the end of the day, if there is a standard engine that does what you want, then that will probable be the better option.
A highly strung 3/4K will be a pita next to a stock bike motor. 180 HP with stock internals, running on pump fual, you could even buy one that still had a warranty... A bike motor should give you no troubles cause they won't be stressed.
It doesn't have to run at 1:1 does it? just leave the gearbox on it and stick it in 4TH. If 4th isn't 1:1 then fix uop the ratio with your diff ratio. I couldn't imagine a bike motor/gearbox being any heavier than a car engine alone. There should be no disadvantage.
Tim.
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
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Thu, 20 January 2005 10:41
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Yeah Tim I know you liked the motorbike motor from the start, don't worry I have been listening to what you have to say(thats were i got the de stroking idea from) but I may go down the bike road now..
So cheers
But the g-box must be removed it only a hassle and sometimes they tend to jump out of gear. If I find a wrecked r1 motorbike i will take the motor out and even do some motor work till I reach my budget.
thanks for the replies everyone.
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Location:
Gympie Qld
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
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Thu, 20 January 2005 11:19
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Hey Meat Rack, if you still want to be different I recently saw an open wheeler at a hill climb running an old 750/6 Honda bike engine with a Toyota 6 cyl supercharger and twin SU's. Went like stink. You might not be able to use a 6 cylinder Honda and probably couldn't find one but a 4 would still go well and be light and have good torque (in perspective).
Gavin
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
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Thu, 20 January 2005 11:22
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do ya have any pics etc??
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Location:
Gympie Qld
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
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Thu, 20 January 2005 11:33
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Sorry camera was out of action outwise I would have had heaps. Everythinbg was set up in line though with supercharger close to head and manifold and carbs close in against supercharger. Looked to have aluminium cover plate made up for belt which also was used as mounting bracket. Probably ran drive off alternator end.
Gavin
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
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Thu, 20 January 2005 11:49
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How much power do the fzr motors have stock?
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Location:
East Maitland NSW
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
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Thu, 20 January 2005 12:20
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um i believe 160 is the stock hp
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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De sroking 2nz-fe infomation(old most powerful small toyota post)
