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Registered:
February 2003
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Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 03:08
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Been searching the site for appropriate info on surgies and got some decent info on how it all works.
I already have a VL turbo fuel pump, feeding my GZE, but was wondering what sorta lifter pump i'd need to get it all going. I got suggested that another VL pump would do the trick but is that over kill?
Also - what lines/hoses/fittings should be used and wheres the best place to purchase in people's experience?
Thinking of whacking it all in the back in an enclosed box. Good idea?
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 03:10
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I've heard of a Carter pump that is meant to be good.
EFI pumps like the VL pump are not meant to be used as lift pumps, because they like to have fuel feeding into them, instead of sucking fuel up like lift pumps.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
October 2004
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 03:23
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| TurboRA28 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2005 14:10 |
I've heard of a Carter pump that is meant to be good.
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Tanks Joel, always a great help. Where would i find a Carter pump? at wreckers? or is this an off the shelf brand new part? $$$?
| styler wrote on Fri, 21 January 2005 14:16 |
external low pressure inline pierburg
pump that was recommended for low pressure, booster pumping
and as a surge pump, can lift fuel quite well too and is
about $85 from supercheap. comes with rubber metal clamp and fittings. uses the bigger fuel hose. works great.
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wow, would this be adequate for a 4AGTE?
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Location:
warrnambool
Registered:
March 2004
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 03:31
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| cramet wrote on Fri, 21 January 2005 14:29 |
use a holly blue fuel pump
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yet again, where to find? info?
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Location:
warrnambool
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 03:34
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u can find it a at autobarn+ repco
iam sure other places hav them if i remember right there not to expensive
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 03:41
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are there different specifics of them? like different ones for different powered cars?
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Location:
warrnambool
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 03:57
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they go by colour
blue
red
and there is another colour i think it might be black
but blue should be all u need
my friends vl was put together by dysons rotary befor they left for q-land so there must be a reason for it
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 04:27
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so what about lines and stuff?
i heard rubber hoses will stink up the cabin and the fumes seep through?
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 04:38
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its a hard one with liftbacks.
some people complain they have rank fuel smells all the time and others dont.
you will inevitably have to run some rubber lines
ive always have suggested to try and find some room to mount the pump and surge tank outside of the cabin.
its not hard to find a place for the pump but the tank is always a problem.
ive had a vehicle engineered with the surge tank in the engine bay behind a strut tower/infront of firewall on passenger side. But i always referred to it as my fuel bomb and subsequently scrapped it and got a proper EFI fuel tank in there.
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 04:52
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so would rubber from pirtek be appropriate to use?
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 05:13
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make sure its proper EFI fuel line rubber.
ive encountered auto trans oil line before and the rubber ends up fusing to the joins and fuel filter etc (not to mention all of the gunk that it will send into the fuel filter.
u can get this from any auto store supershit, crapco, autobum
ive read on the forums people swapping in AE82?? EFI tanks into the AE86, considered this?
most toyotas of EFI vintage even tho they came with carbie engine in australia still have EFI wiring loom and a seat in the kick panel for the fuel pump relay.
HTH
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 05:43
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I just dug this up from an old thread (thanks Rob) and wanted to see if this was the correct way of going about the installation:
CURRENT FUEL SYSTEM
PROPOSED SURGE SETUP
so i just tap in and intercept the old system and it should work?
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Location:
warrnambool
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 06:14
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that is the way to do it like the pick u should get away with the smell of the fuel if u use copper line with compression connection "IE" screwed fittings like froma plumbing store and not use rubber hoses at all that would be the way i would do it couse if u done it wright u wont get the smell
iam a plumber thats why i would go that way
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 06:26
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First and major consideration:
Will your return line from the fuel rail go back to the surge tank, or back to the main fuel tank?
If it goes back to the surge tank, like the diagram you show above, then almost any low pressure electric fuel pump will do the job, as it never needs to flow as much as the main pump, because the surge tank is always being replenished by both the lift pump, AND the returned excess fuel from the rail.
If you return to the main tank, then your lift pump will have to be able to flow the same amount as the main pump, otherwise you risk running the surge tank below full.
In my experience, DO NOT use a holley pump unless you absolutely have to (ie: second option where you need a high flowing low pressure pump), as they are noisy as hell, even with good rubber damping. Fine if you have a thumping great pushrod V8 in the front rattling away though 
The pierburg low pressure pump is a compact, and quiet option, and can even be found at wreckers in cars such as early carby hondas (civic etc).
Sorry for the long post! 
Cheers
[edit]
as turboRA28 mentioned, if you do decide to run an EFI pump as a lift pump (like VL), just make sure its mounted BELOW the level in the fuel tank, as they don't suck air well, and won't last if they are forced to.
[Updated on: Fri, 21 January 2005 06:30]
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 06:52
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What TE72_Turbo said!
You dont need a pump as big as a carter or holley.
I run a Walbro E8016S as on this page http://www.fdrive.com.au/products/08/fuelpumps.php
It's supporting around 300kW.
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Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 10:06
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Awesome guys, great help. Once again Phil, you da man!
I still have to get my head around about how it all works, i'm just confused about where each line physically connects to, and in particular the return line (function?)
EDIT: ok, just got abit dirty and looked under the car, what i'm mainly scratching my head about is WHERE the return line from the engine feeds fuel to the tank.
I can only physically see the outlet, but no inlet to the tank.
help? Also i have always queried whether or not my fuel tank is in fact an AE86 item. But I have a feeling it aint, cuz the fuel outlet feed is gravity fed ie. on the bottom.
[Updated on: Fri, 21 January 2005 10:10]
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Fri, 21 January 2005 21:58
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On the AE86 tank from memory there is 3 pipes coming out the top of it.
1 is for the charcole canister.
1 is for the feed to the engine
1 is return from the engine
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So yeah, basically the low pressure pump would go on the line that originally goes to the engine. That feeds the surge tank.
Then hi flow pump from surge tank to feed engine.
Return line from engine instead of going back to the tank now goes back to the surge tank.
Then the surge tank has an overflow line right at the top of it which returns fuel to the tanks original return line.
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sat, 22 January 2005 00:18
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Feed out of the bottom of the tank sounds strange. I'd think any condensation in the tank would be pumped straight to the engine first.
Anyway, don't use a holley lift pump, total overkill (unless you're aiming for 300+rwkw) and it will deafen you. I have one and wish I didn't.
In the diagrams above remember to put an EFI filter bfore the engine.
The options I recommend are either modify your tank with baffles so you can run an in tank EFI pump (maybe AE82 as suggested above, but there are plenty of options) or run a surge tank with the return from the rail refilling the surge tank. Then you can use almost a smaller lift pump, but it is a hassle to fit all that hardware under the car.
On that note, its a hassle but well worth taking the time to fit it under the car, not in the cabin. It means you avoid the petrol smells and any dramas in the long run.
And the function of each part:
- One line out of tank to lift pump which pumps into surge tank
- A line out of the surge tank to your high pressure pump which feeds the fuel rail through a filter (and passes through the fuel pressure regulator)
- You need a return line from the fuel rail back to the surge tank (at idle you use very little fuel and your high pressure pump doesn't like pumping at high pressure but such low flow rates, so it just pumps it around and back into the surge tank. Also it helps it your fuel cool and makes fuel pressure regulation easier I think)
- And another return line from the surge tank to the main tank, for similar reasons to above
Anyway, good luck
Hen
PS, sorry about the length
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sat, 22 January 2005 01:04
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| TurboRA28 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2005 16:31 |
Rob, whats that proper EFI tank ?? RA60 or something?
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i was lucky enough that allan gave me his MA45 EFI fuel tank when he took it out to mount his LPG gas tank.
it bolted right into my RA40.
cheers
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sat, 22 January 2005 01:31
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I can't figure out why fuel smell is present when the surge tank is mounted in the car. It doesn't seem right that they can hold 60psi of fluid pressure on the lines, but vapours can escape easily? The surge tank & pumps are mounted inside the back of my panelvan, and it smells bad  but there are definately no leaks.
I've heard that there is a special type of EFI hose that is teflon lined (not braided stainless hose with teflon inserts, its still a rubber hose), and doesn't allow any vapour smell. Anyone seen or used this stuff?
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Location:
Launceston
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sat, 22 January 2005 01:45
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you would be lucky to find a holley (red,blue,black) that didnt leak as well, ive tried all 3 and all have leaked a small amount through the motor shaft (so not a good choice for boot). I use a pierburg ($70-$80)pump in my car for the surge tank and a camira EFI pump ($100 from wreckers)under the car (the one I got is noisy).
the surge tank is in the boot and I get fuel smell when the car has been sitting.
I had to run a new return line as mine is a ke30 they only had a fuel line and a breather.
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Location:
s.a
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sun, 23 January 2005 06:28
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i put a jdm 4ageu into my ta22. i use a cordia turbo hp fuel pump for rail(has similar specs to 4agze pump) and a facet low pressure lift pump all mounted into a fuel box in boot. the facet is stupidly noisy and i can hear when this pump surges (coz of carby pickup). working in the fuel box sux hard as there is no room. the cordia pump had a flex rubber hose to a bundy fitting. i have used a grommet and short bundy with nuts to get fuel out of the box. to join peices of bundy use sv21 camry bundy joiners that go from the in tank pump to underneath car. build box before surge tank. i am not running a fuel rail return to the surge tank and it surges bad. am going to route rail return to low pressure pump outlet so i dont have to have surge tank rewelded. i would advise against fuel boxes (although that it what my engineer wanted to get thru regency) coz they are hard to work on and you need weld through pipes allowing fuel travel in and out of box. if i had my time again i would have removed my fuel tank and had a swirl / baffled pot weled to the bottom of my tank eliminating the need for a lift pump and surge tank.
greg
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Ademelaide, SA
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sun, 23 January 2005 11:08
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| ae86slaver wrote on Fri, 21 January 2005 16:13 |
I just dug this up from an old thread (thanks Rob) and wanted to see if this was the correct way of going about the installation:
CURRENT FUEL SYSTEM
PROPOSED SURGE SETUP
so i just tap in and intercept the old system and it should work?
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to be honest, i'd have the return feed from the engine going back to the tank so as not to heat up your fuel supply with hot fuel returning from the engine.
but that's just me
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sun, 23 January 2005 12:01
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Yeah, i have a VL-t fuel pump for the EFI pressure, but run a little Pierburg pump for the lift pump. Quite small and does quite admirably. I run it all in the engine bay similar to how Rob used to do it. Fuel bomb for sure, but ill relocate it to the spare tyre well eventually and then seal the well.
Just run the efi return back to the surge tank, otherwise youll be using two pumps which can feed the same amount. Makes no sense.
Also those VL-t pumps are QUITE noisy too.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sun, 23 January 2005 12:15
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i also use a Pierburg pump, its great. Would recommend one to you.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sun, 23 January 2005 14:06
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pierburg....
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sun, 23 January 2005 22:40
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Ahh well good to hear others out there suffer the same fuel smell problems.
Like TE72_Turbo said, seems odd they can hold 60PSI of pressure with no leaks but still smell.
I am thinking of cutting a round hole in the bottom of the tank, sliding a piece of pipe up inside the tank that also sits lower than the tank, so it wont be flush on the bottom. This can act as swirl pot/baffling. Then have the EFI pump mounted nice and low being fed from the bottom of the pipe that was put in the tank.
I'm hoping with it sitting lower than the tank fuel will get trapped in there when corning.
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
s.a
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Surge tank. What low pressure pump to use?
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Sat, 29 January 2005 07:02
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dude thats what i had and it is all bad. if you dont have your rail return going back to the surge tank you will have surging and incinsistent running lack of power etc. the bottom pics better. better still forget the surge tank and have your fuel tank modified. have a little drop tank thats baffled at the bottom with a bundy nut fitting for bundy or a speed flow expensive fitting that goes to your large diameter hose to hp pump. in my cordia turbo hp pump there is a little conical filter that goes in the rubber in side of my hp pump. it would be so much less dicking around.
have fun and try to do it spot on the first time it is worth every minute/cent.
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