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Registered:
February 2005
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 TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 06:59
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Hi All,
Just a technical question regarding an engine swap.
I have a 71 TA22 Celica, and have just obtained a Commodore V6 3.8L engine and gearbox (plus other required bits and pieces). Is it possible to put it into the celica? What are the problems that could be associated with such a modification, and has anyone else done it?
Thanks for your help.
Peter.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 07:09
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Weight, lack of power, ridicule, pushrods.
Need anymore help ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 07:12
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Toyota did this experiment.
It was called the Lexcen.
It failed.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 07:15
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Its not legal...
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Location:
Newcastle, Hunter Valley
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 07:21
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if u want a V6 i've seen a ta22 with a capri engine. not sure how good it went though. I belive it was advertised on these forums too
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 07:51
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| alex_ta22 wrote on Fri, 04 February 2005 17:51 |
if u want a V6 i've seen a ta22 with a capri engine.
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Even more of a pointless exercise.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 08:23
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its been done before and IS LEGAL in victoria
there is an example of one here in colac vic that i have seen up close and the conversion fits quite well, and would most likely go ok too - if your not expecting the worlds fastest sportscar
i believe the conversion here used the full commodore driveline including a borg warner diff/discs..
Im not sure if it would handle all that well , once again , and youd need to look at most likely beefing up your suspension to handle the extra weight.
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Location:
melb
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 11:25
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you guys can be such elitist snobs at times...
you bag out on the buick V6 being such an ancient boat anchor, but these things can run in the 8's - yeah and thats not 0-100 its up the 1/4...
turbocharged buick V6's in the states have fairly good aftermarket support.
do a search on the 1984 - 1987 buick regal grand national....read it and weep - faster than 928S(1986) and 944 turbo, corvette.....
in GNX trim this barge could pull a mid 13 1/4 in factory trim....
moral of the story, do not let your snobby clouded minds convince themselves that just because it doesnt have DOHC etc its slow....you may get OWNED!!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 11:42
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the point everyone tries to make is that they are relatively heavy, naturally unbalanced, are inefficient in design, and need a lot of work to make them quick compared to other motors.
in relation to a TA22, they are heavy, large, and poor bang for weight...
sure the good ol (boys) V6 can be good if you throw enough money at it (how many of those 8 sec cars use any stock parts?), but as a choice of engine conversion, there are a lot better options, such as 3SGT, 1GGT, heck, even CA18, 13B etc etc...
if you wanted a near 4L motor, the 1UZ is a far better choice in all respects than the buick..
but we won't discriminate too much if you like holden motors.. just try to discourage and educate you 
Cya, Stewart
heh heh, owned by a commodore...oh no, i feel shamed  i feel for the commondore owners that try and pass me on an inside lane, WITH MY 1960's PUSHROD MOTOR .... suckers....
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Location:
melb
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 12:05
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totally agree STU...I dont "like" holden motors, just trying to keep some perspective..
would only put a 4 or a V6 in a ta22, yeah 1uz could be made to fit but......overkill maybe (not cheap)..forget the 1ggte or 1jzgte (too long, too heavy - too much weight too far forward)....but actually ive never done it so only speculating..
and there is the problem - no decent RWD 4's or V6's in the toyota lineup....
3sgte is the ultimate for this car but nooooooot cheap....
if u have the motor do it.....easily acheivable I reckon...id budget another 2G for it but.....but then who would want to buy it later???
you want to do it, then do it....
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Registered:
February 2005
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 12:39
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thanks guys. i appreciate the feedback.. I will have a think about it and do a bit more research.. I would definately beef up the suspension, and put a different diff in it etc... I just wanted to know if it was possible, and the +'s and -'s... thanks everyone for the help..
Peter.
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Location:
Ireland
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 13:08
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thoughts:
3sge in rwd uses W5x box.
toyota engine V6 mr2 uses 3sgte box,
ergo....v6 in rwd could use w5x box?
v6mr2 info on mr2oc.com
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Location:
melb
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 14:04
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yeah it may use the 3s box but the bellhousing is most likely different....
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Location:
Ireland
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Fri, 04 February 2005 15:38
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http://www.mr2mk1club.com/V6MR2.html
3vz-fe into aw11
3sgte box bolted right up, lots of pics of it.
Lots of clutch/flywheel info there also.
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sat, 05 February 2005 04:55
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THANK YOU for posting that chrisss!! At least somebody knows what time it is.
I see that lil buick v6 being ragged on here on the regular.... I only shake my head saying, "man these idiots don't have a clue".
Lots of folks here adopt the mentality that *only* dohc are 'performance motors'. Foolishness!
That v6 is an excellent, rugged reliable powerplant that even in n.a. can make decent hp/tq - trick is to gear a 'lightwt' car properly to take advantage of the torque.
I totally agree that they're not smooth like the import v6s tho.
I cut my teeth on buick v6s and know them very well. Having owned a buick GN I can tell you that you will go alot faster with FAR less money that you would be pumping into a 2jz... and NO you DON'T have to "throw alot of money" at them. A 10sec, full weight daily driven buick - try a stock unopened 150,000 mile motor boosted by a $700 turbo. Stock tranny and converter.
People snatch those drivetrains from junkyards and drop them into all sortsa imports... for eg. Stock high milage motor and turbo, swapped in to street rx7 FCs run mid 11s -reliably-
And for the record, there was a buick v6 campaigning to run with the 7.10sec pro-stock v8 field, WAY back in 1987. How fast do you think it would've been today, had it been allowed to compete. Competitors observing the car during 'shakedown' runs, said it could wipe out the field at will, with just one twist of the boost knob. Couldn't have that.
I wanted 'torquey' powerplants in my 2 corollas and no toyota 4 or 6 cylinder options made any sense to me either, so now I run mitsus 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sat, 05 February 2005 05:12
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Yep just like those 7 second Corollas.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sat, 05 February 2005 07:14
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I have a picture with a big block chev motor in a celica.
It's from the States, was a tight fit but damn it looked good !!!
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Location:
melb
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sat, 05 February 2005 07:39
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"just like those 7 second corollas" that run rotaries....
any power plant can put out big power, but the more capacity u got the easier it is to get.....even the japs realise that these days, eg 1uz 4.0 -> 3uz 4.6.....
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sat, 05 February 2005 12:11
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http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/recipes/Stockwell. html
this buick was owned by a fellow club member... did this back ~'96.
They're even faster now, with 'todays' technology applied.
http://www.psiracing.com/
See that white corolla? It ran 8.1s with 3TC before he switched to the 3sgte. I saw that thing run. Even tho he goes 7.80s now, he had more success with the 3T. Two other puerto ricans run 7s using 3tc power.
http://www.t-racing.com/Racing2.6Cars.htm
FIRST import in the 7s was powered by what?? yep, a pos 2.6 2valve starion motor. I know those motors well too. Magna/sigma to you?
http://eville140.com/
10.8s. Daily driven, full weight. Home ported head, stock bottom end, $200 truck turbo, $150 junkyard intercooler and a $650 standalone that was the owners 1st attempt at tuning!
I can go on, but you get the point.... I hope.
Any motor can deliver the goods and no you DON'T;
1. need a dual bb turbo
2. need dohc, or
3. have to spend alot of money to get there
Its called using your brains instead of ca$h.... do you qualify ?
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sat, 05 February 2005 13:38
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Seems the Buick V6 comes up here pretty often these days 
Yes, you COULD put one in a '22 and have it fit etc., and it has been done. In a tin can car, a Commodore V6 can be made to go reasonably smartly with the 'basic' stuff done (exhaust, cam, lifters, remap, etc.), and if you're happy with the result, then do it. However, let's just say the old buick motor ain't no silk purse... They run roughly, they're noisy and they detest revs (both flow and durability reasons). They have reliability issues with things from oil leaks to timing chains. Yes, Japanese engines have their weak points too, but on the whole are most much nicer things than the Buick rattler.
Guest: Interesting you even mention the Mitsubishi engines - the 4 potter from the Sigmas/Magnas is a bit different to the starion motor, and they can be made to pull pretty hard with some boost - but once again, they're rough as guts, and have some definate weaknesses.
Anyway, before I start sounding like yet another Buick-bagger, go ahead and do it if you believe you want to - remember the most important thing in playing with cars is keeping yourself happy, and if you can upset a few people along the way, sometimes thats the most fun!
Maybe try talking to Castlemaine Rod Shop, see if they can help you.
The S, VZ, MZ and L engines all use the same bellhousing pattern, however on twin cam VZ and MZ engines, the starter motor gets in the way of one of the heads.
[Updated on: Sat, 05 February 2005 13:42]
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Registered:
February 2005
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sat, 05 February 2005 15:32
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thanks for the info, mrshin.
Sounds to me like its a goer.. I realise that there are nicer things than the 'ol buick engine. However, the main reason I am doing it is that I was given it, as well as the gearbox, wiring loom etc etc. for a very minimal price from a friend who got rear ended and was getting rid of the car. I was looking for another engine at the time and though it would be interesting to try. It will definately be a job doing it, I just wanted to check if it was actually possible to do.. From the general feedback I have gotten, I think that I will go ahead with it.. Sure, there will be some disadvantages such as the fact that it is indeed a rough running engine, but it can be done, and should hopefully perform ok
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sat, 05 February 2005 23:28
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good luck with the v6 swap, should you go that route
mrChin,
I have your version (non u.s. starion) 2L motor in one corolla.
My U.S. model starion is powered by the 2.6L aka 'the forklift' motor.
That is the motor that broke the 7sec barrier for the imports.
As long as the timing chain/guides have been replaced, maintainance upkept and the balance shafts are intact.... it is a very smooth and quiet running 4cyl (mine is). Excellent corolla swap material too
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 00:27
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I'd be another who'd steer clear of the commonwhore motor-(I'd go for an all alloy prado V6 personally)
HOWEVER.....
For the right price I reckon it'd be a great conversion. As to how it would fit into a celica-my guess is it would be fine as the engines aren't DOHC and so are fairly compact, and in addition, it should be a bit shorter than the stock 4cyl. You may even find you can achieve a passable weight distribution as the 3.8 powertrain should have a CofG that's lower and further back than the original. Combine that with stuffing it as far back and as low as possible and you may be surprised at the weight dist. Making up your own engine mounts isn't too hard-you just need access to a welder, or to someone who will weld for you. Alternatively you could go extra simple and use an engine plate to mount it.
At minimum you'll need the following bits-
Larger radiator
(go to the wreckers with a tape measure-if the drivetrain was rediculously cheap or free you are hereby banned from spending any more cash than is absolutely needed!!!=-)
Engine mounts
-easy-just use nice thick material and some urethane bushes.
Sump mods
-to suit celica engine bay (may not even be required-but if they are-its again just a case of getting out the welder and hacksaw and going for it-sump mods are super simple-it's just a bucket that holds oil!!)
Gearbox crossmember
-grab the one off the commie if you can as a good starting point and butcher away.....
Tailshaft
-this will need to be a custom item from a professional workshop-200 to 400 bucks or so.
Diff
-you can keep the stock one, but it may shit itself in short order with the huge torque boost. However, for cheapness, the stock diff with a welded centre would be good-And if it's auto the celica rear end will last a whole lot longer. (and yes I know a welded centre is illegal, but I have owned one and they are fine-however rather rough......)
If you put the commodore one in you will need to do a fair bit of work (more than fitting the engine even!) and have the housing and axles modified. However, it will allow you to use appropriate gearing-3.5 or something around there. (I think the stock 4.11 or whatever it is will be a bit too short-it will launch hard though....)
New fuel system
-you'll need to fit a return line to the tank and a high pressure pump, along with a lift pump and swirl pot. You can pick up a suitable lift pump from supercheap for fuck all (just a low pressure, electric pump meant for carbied cars), and buying a new high press pump for 180 or so is cheap insurance (VL ones are good for external surge setups-the VN has an intank one which is no use to you without significant work on your existing tank)
Wiring the ECU
-self explanatory. Get a VN wiring diag and go for it-shouldn't be too bad-and there is enough knowlege on the net about 3.8 transplants for someone to be able to help you if required.
That should be most of it, apart from stuff like hoses, clamps etc. I tend to think you could get it going for 500-800bucks (on top of eng purch price) if you do as much of it yourself as you can.
Should make a nice car to drive-especially if you fit a taller diff ratio.
Once it's in there-maybe two 1GGZE blowers on 4-5 psi could be the go?????????
I expect weekly progress reports.
Sean
Adelaide
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 00:51
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I say poor Celica.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 03:05
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Depending on where you are, this swap might not be legal. It certainly isn't in Qld or NSW. Better look into that before you start anything!
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 03:18
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| Norbie wrote on Sun, 06 February 2005 14:05 |
Depending on where you are, this swap might not be legal. It certainly isn't in Qld or NSW. Better look into that before you start anything!
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whatis the exact rule on the maximum capacity??? i am confused. if u say a 3.8 v6 is illegal in queensland, then how did this guy i seen have a 308 v8 engineer certified into a 1980'(round about) hilux that origionally comes with a 18rc.
i kno the topic is for a TA22 but i was told on here a v6 3.8 in my RA40 is illegal also.....how does that differ from a a 18rc powered hilux???
thanx
brett
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 03:33
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The rules are different for vehicles with a full chassis, eg Hilux. Pretty much anything goes if you have one of them!
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 03:44
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ive seen an old school celica cant rem which gen maybee ra23 with a 4ltr pushrod v8 toyota motor (again cant rem engine number) then he twin turboed it and was engineered no worries.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 04:51
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As long as it is engineered then you can put anything you want in it. Keeping in in mind that getting it engineed might involve chassis strengthening.
As for the v6, the VN v6 manual ran 15.5 1/4 mile stock with a 3.08 diff ratio from the factory. In the little celica, with a welded 4.11 gearset it's anyones guess?! Basic mods can get these engines into the 14's, a few more can get 13's. (and thats in the heavier commodore)
Honestly to all those people out there who say "DON'T DO IT" let people do what they wan't. Was his question "Should I do it or not?" I don't think so. Give people the benefit of the doubt, if they ask "HOW DO I DO IT", don't arrogantly assume they are stupid and start telling them your infitne wisdom about an engien you've never driven. All those post are just useless, they achive nothing but make my eye's have to jump over useless unimformative crap. If it helps some of you go back to the original post and TRY AND ANSWER HIS QUESTIONS, DON'T WASTE EVERYONES TIME TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOU WOULD DO. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC DON'T POST.
You stupid one eye'd 'cams = power' 'pushrod are crap' idiots
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 08:05
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Crap dude, were you molested by a DOHC engine in your childhood or something? Calm down!
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I supported Toymods
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 08:08
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| Norbie wrote on Sun, 06 February 2005 18:05 |
Crap dude, were you molested by a DOHC engine in your childhood or something? Calm down!
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There sure is some shit being dribbled in this thread.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 13:25
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lol was worked up from a previous topic reply where the same thing happened (re, 18RC turbo conversion)...
but still, it's the 'don't do it', and other smartarse one liners that clog up and destoy the topic -- it's just as bad as the "me too" replies that people finally woke up to a few years ago (hopefully).
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Sun, 06 February 2005 21:23
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| hemi twofifteen turbo wrote on Sun, 06 February 2005 14:51 |
As long as it is engineered then you can put anything you want in it. Keeping in in mind that getting it engineed might involve chassis strengthening.
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I just thought I would say this is bullshit. In no state of Australia does this apply.
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Mon, 07 February 2005 13:16
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| Cool1 wrote on Mon, 07 February 2005 08:23 |
| hemi twofifteen turbo wrote on Sun, 06 February 2005 14:51 |
As long as it is engineered then you can put anything you want in it. Keeping in in mind that getting it engineed might involve chassis strengthening.
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I just thought I would say this is bullshit. In no state of Australia does this apply.
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Err.. why? Here in Vic, the rules are a bit different about engine swaps, and capacity itself isn't going to exclude any engine. If a car is pre-emission, then you can put (almost) anything in there. But a Buickdore engine in a '22 would be fine provided you went along with everything the engineer told you to do (e.g. brakes, cat converter, unleaded fuel filler (although where you can buy leaded petrol commonly is a mystery to me...))
Oh yeah, also, are you planning to use the TH700, 4L60E, bogwarmer T5 or getrag box?
[Updated on: Mon, 07 February 2005 13:18]
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Mon, 07 February 2005 13:19
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Sorry, rules must of changed in the last few days.
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Location:
melb
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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I supported Toymods
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Tue, 08 February 2005 07:51
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But you can put an older engine in a newer car. You just have to bring the older engine up to the new emission standards.
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Tue, 08 February 2005 09:45
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Hi,
Old Holden engines!!!! Put in a 179 or a 186S. Good old engines that never die and you can get some serious power out of them if worked. Better still, what about a Bathurst 202? maybe a bit long, but they're old donks and you won't have to worry about anti-pollution stuff on these old beasts.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Castle Hill, Sydney
Registered:
February 2004
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Tue, 08 February 2005 10:17
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Hi,
So he should!
However, ask him about the Starfire-4 engine. IMHO it would have to be one of the worse engines Holden ever made. 1900cc of pure evil.
seeyuzz
river
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Glenmore Park, NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Tue, 08 February 2005 11:45
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if your in NSW max NA capacity is 3.4L "ergo" 3.8ltr V6 is out ... nuff said.
its basically a number times your weight gives you the engine capacity allowed. For forced fed (read: supercharged turbocharged) i think its 2.6ltr.
there is a 4ltr toyota v8 (1uzfe) in a TA22 but i believe this is in QLD.... and also believe it was twin turbo at some stage?
plus on the snobbyness.... what do you expect... it's a Toyota Forum .... plus what's a forum if people can't express an opinion?
Nuff said ... dribble ... dribble
Cheers
Nathan
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Tue, 08 February 2005 13:04
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But let's not forget that the backfire, I mean starfire, four is the favourite place for 'beefy' rods for your red motor six
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Wed, 09 February 2005 10:40
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I had a 1gg in a ta22 race car, went well, handled like crap
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Membership Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Wed, 09 February 2005 23:23
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There is a Ta22 runnig around in and around the border of NSW and Vic that did have a 4VTT in it and is now 1UZFTE. its is engineered to my knowledge there are ways around eveything.
ill leave it at that.
there are more plans for that car atm too keep an eye out for it.!!!
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I supported Toymods
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Re: TA22 Celica - V6 Conversion
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Thu, 10 February 2005 01:00
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It depends where you are. It appears in Victoria and WA, so long as you satisfy what the engineer wants, you can do most things.
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