| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
adelaide
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
|
Location:
On your mum!
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 07:44
 
|
 |
They look to be a pretty good thing but as for fitting in the engine bay I don't know - what are the physical overall dimensions?
I couldn't imagine fitting one in the Corolla and if you are putting it into a Celica with a 1G you may be stretching it too! Consider the complexity of the water system and associated radiator as well!
The water/air units can be of huge benefit to drag systems (lowering charge air to well below ambient when used with ice in them) and they usually have less volume for the charge air to fill (making the engine more responsive).
I like air/air intercoolers for their inherent reliability and consistent performance (K.I.S.S principle).
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 07:46
|
|
what are boos?
learn to type
a friend of mine has one in his "GTiR" and it seems to work pretty well, but he is also using $200 water pump with ludicrous flow rates, and we haven't tested it extensively.
personally i think the pressure drop accross them would have to be fairly hefty, as they have such a small cross sectional area, i think i will convince him to measure boost before and after it and find out.
|
|
|
Location:
adelaide
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 07:55
|
|
4"x6" (290mm long) for 270hp
4"x8" (349mm long) 290hp
4"x10" (395mm long) 300hp
6"x8" (435mm long) 600hp
6"x10" (485mm long) 650hp
8"x8" (510mm long) 950hp
8"x10" (560mm long) 1200+hp
is the hp rating for what your turbo put out?
|
|
|
Registered:
August 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 11:29
|
|
shinybluesteel, the 4" barrels have the same number of tubes as a 250mm high 73mm tube and fin A/A cooler, and the 6" barrells actually have MORE tubes than a 300mm high 73mm thick cooler, so before you go mouthing off at someone becuase they didin't put a T on the end of a word, how about YOU get some remote idea about what you are talking about man, talk about high horses!!!!
Now if we use for example the 6x10" barrel rated at a supposed 600hp, which I have fitted under the bonnet of my 1G Ke70 corolla, you will see that they will have sweet FUCK ALL pressure drop, as there is more tubes for the air to pass through than a conventional 600x300x73mm front mount, AND the tubes are only 10" long, so the air has less friction and less distance to push through, less than half actually, so once again a LOT LESS pressure drop. In fact, I think even the shittly little 4" tubes would have less pressure drop than a conventional 600x300x73mm front mount.
BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In my exprerience so far, they simply don't work!! I have only been making around 450hp at the flywheel on this supposed 600hp cooler, and have a radiator in the front of car TWICE the size that they recommend or that come in their kit, and I also have their latest pump that flows nearly DOUBLE what the kit used to come with, and on a dyno pull, the lowest we can get the inlet temps is around 63 degrees. On cruise it is awesome, it sits on 40 degrees, no matter what, idle light traffic, high speed, its always consistant, but give it a hit and it goes straight up to 63 after a few seconds.
I even have a dry ice tank that holds 8 litres of water, it has a 4" tube that sits down into it, about 300mm deep, that the dry ice packs into, it is sealed from the water so you don't get all the bubbling and fizzin going on, but trust me, it gets pretty cold!!! For interests sake, we turned the engine off and packed the tank with dry ice, keeping the water pump running, and kept doing this for around 8-10min, we got the water temp in the cooler system down to about -2 degrees on a digital guage, started the car up and did a pull pretty much straight away, the car on boost a liiittttle bit quicker, maybe 200rpm down low, but the inlet temp still shot straight up to 56 degrees, I think thats pretty crap when you consider the water temp is near zero.
I basically think they don't have a long enough distance to pull the heat out of the air in a high hp engine, they do do the job, but so far, not very well in my engine. I'm going to try playing arund with different cooling mediums in the system and see if it improves, and also try a bigger Davies Craig engine water pump, which is twice as big again, and see how it goes, the whole system has cost me about $2500 so there is no way in hell i'm giving up yet!! I'll try and keep you posted if you'd like??
Cheers.........................6BOOST 
|
|
|
Registered:
August 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 11:35
|
|
Oh, and they also have no testing or info on these things whatso ever. They have never tested pressure drop, temperature reduction, heatsink ability, change in boost response, and they basically didn't have a clue what to say or do when I rang them with my results, they just said "I don't know what you could do, thats a bit strange". Even the HP ratings have come from guess work, the've never tested them to arrive at these figure.
Go figure!
|
|
|
Location:
adelaide
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 11:38
|
|
so they thought theyd make a tube run water through it and sell it as a cooler. ud think theyd atleast have some tested results before selling them.
but yeah keep me posted, thanks. i have been thinking of using one on my 1g in my ra28 so am very interested as to how well they work compared to air to air
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 11:43
|
|
maybe your pumping the water tooo fast try slowing it down, whats the water temp before and after the cooler?
Allan
|
|
|
Location:
adelaide
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 11:46
|
|
|
hmm, thats a thought, would that also prevent the water cooling as much as it could in the radiator as it wouldnt be in there aslong?
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 11:52
|
|
yep so you need to see whats actualy happening with a heap of temp sensors, also are you runing distilled water with some coolent? or strait water? also a short intercooler path allows for pre turbo water injection (must be super fine mist) without puddling issues front mounts have.... many pros and cons to both methods....
Allan
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 11:55
|
|
| Allan wrote on Wed, 02 February 2005 22:43 |
maybe your pumping the water tooo fast try slowing it down, whats the water temp before and after the cooler?
Allan
|
ditto... remember what happens when you leave out a thermostat? water is going to fast to have efficient heat transfer, and cooling system fails.
try a restrictor in the lines first, or use a valve to divert water arund cooler and back to tank. also measure the temps in the water after each stage.. see if you have any decent temp changes. you can calculate the temp drop in the air by the temp rise in the water 
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 02 February 2005 12:17
|
|
fwiw, the only barrel coolers i've seen have been on strip cars (bar one) and they've all been quite long (something like 450-500mm for the main barrel) regardless of being meth-drag racer or 13B strip-street-warrior.
they all ran quite thin condensors (considering the amount of heat they were going to remove from the air) and the streetable ones seemed to be using a davies-craig pumps.
The only GT4 (that i've seen up close with the hood open) with a top mount factory W/A interheater also had surpringly thin condensor and at first touch felt nearly as hot as the radiator. It was a single-core alloy thing with plastic tanks.
With water being a much more efficient at 'absorbing' and transferring heat, i guess it's not the size of the condensor that matter so much, more the length of the pipes in the barrel that are exposed to the hot air?
There was a discussion about W/A versus A/A coolers recently... anyone managed to find it with 'search' yet?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Thu, 03 February 2005 04:07
|
|
high horse?
poor spelling pisses me off, so i had a little dig, then went on to give my opinions, im sure the dude took no offence, as he didn't go off at me in the very next post.
i never said the pressure drop was a problem, i just said that in my opinion it could be a problem.
this is why i want to actually measure the pressure drop, i think the PWR coolers are a great idea as far as a pre manufactured simple to install WTA intercoolers go.
i was just going off my limited experience with such a cooler, looking itno one end of it and thinking "shit, there isnt much space for air to go through there"
i dont see how they could have a lower pressure drop than a decent sized front mount, but again, i havent looked into it.
sorry if i sounded your wanker alert,
the main problem, (again in my opinion) is that there isn't enough surface area exposed to the charge air, and this is really what you want in an efficient air to water heat exchanger, as described in the book "maximum boost". i'm glad to come down off my high horse if anybody wants details on how these are constructed.
[Updated on: Thu, 03 February 2005 05:32]
|
|
|
Location:
On your mum!
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Thu, 03 February 2005 05:24
|
|
68OOST - that is some pretty dissappointing results that you are having there - my first thoughts are the same as previously mentioned IE water perhaps circulating too quickly.
For comparisons sake - I experience temp rises in the order of 10 degrees on a full blast of the loud pedal and my intake temps are measured within the manifold. I use the ADRAD ic ditributed by ARE and measures 520 x 300 x 73.
|
|
|
Registered:
August 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Thu, 03 February 2005 22:34
|
|
Ok, I get what you are all saying, but thats not the problem, we are not talking about the water temperature rising slowly over time, as would be the case if it did't have enough time to cool in the radiator, or if it was relatively hot in the cooler itself. But, to put it in perspective so you understand its not pump speed, at least that its definately not going to FAST, is that the water temperature surrounding the cooler on one dyno pull, started out at -2 degrees C, and after the pull had only risen to about 10DegC, so no matter how fast the water is moving, it is being replaced by more water that is still BELOW ambient, and inlet temps still rise massively, 40 degrees!! just as fast as when the water temp in the system is 30-40 degrees C, 10degC above ambient.
The pump speed could be too slow, I've spoken to Richard from ARE cooling, who I usually buy all my coolers from, he's possibly the most knowledgable person in the industry, and he has tested many differnt facets of W/A coolers. He dropped 7 degrees of inlet temps when he went from 1 davies craig booster pump to 2 on his surf, and he now uses a Davies Craig electric water pump, as used for engine cooling!!!! as the pump, it flows 75 Litres and hour instead of the 22 for the booster pump, and 35 for the bosch pump I have.
The area in which I think I may have a problem, is that I am using a mixture of 50% water, 50% ethanol, or methalated spirits. My reason for doing this, is during testing, the lowest temperature I could get water and glycol down to was negative 15DegC, and it took a bloody long time doing so. Ethanol, on the other hand, takes very little time, literally sucking the dry ice up very quickly and absorbing its very cool temperature, and got down to -73degC, which is as low as our equipment would go. I thought this would be a bonus, and in most cases it probably is, with the water temperature always staying very cool under normal driving becuase the ethanol is cooling very fast in the radiator as it passes through.................BUT,
What may actually be happening, is that it also heats up very quickly, not the whole quantity in the system, but just the very small volume touching the tubes inside the cooler when a very big rush of boosted air goes through, inlet temps into the cooler are probably in the order of 150-175 degreesC, and the ethanol may be literally boiling, or at least getting too hot too quick that the cooler has no actual heatsink ability in its fin surface. I don't really fnow hey, I'm going to try more cooling mediums, such as plain water and water and glycol and see what results I get, another alternative if it is getting too hot with the ethanol is simply give t a bigger pump so it flushed really quickly of the ethanol that is really hot. I'll keep ya posted.
[Updated on: Thu, 03 February 2005 22:36]
|
|
|
Registered:
August 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Thu, 03 February 2005 22:43
|
|
shinybluesteel, sorry for goin off, wanker alert removed, that was a very level headed answer. But I reinterate to you that the coolers will have same or less pressure drop becuase when you look inside the end at the cores, if you actually measure them all, they are actually preety big area, the 4" diameter ones are similar to the amount of cores you would find looking in the end of a 600x250 high cooler, and the 6" ones acually have more core area than if you looking nto the end of a 600x300mm high cooler, and as well as this, becuase they are only half as wide, they obviously aren'tgoing to restrict the air as much as it passes through it.
thechuckster, the longest PWR make the barrels is 10" for the main barrel part itself, so 250mm, but they are decieving to look at, as they are around the 450-500mm mark in overall length.
6BOOST
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Thu, 03 February 2005 23:45
|
|
hey mate, no problem.
here is my take on yourproblem, if i understand it correctly, and at least ofer one tip.
i studied heat exchangers briefly in my engineering degree, and there are basically two things you need to consider, well more than two, but basically everything happens twice.
you have your cooling fluid, and your fluid to be cooled. you also have the area which is in contact with the coolng fluid, and the area which is in contact with the fluid to be cooled.
with an air to water heat exchanger, the area in contact with the cooling fluid (water) can be much smaller than the area in contact with the charge air, as water has a much, much greater specific energy than air.
the only problem with WTA is that you then need to cool the water, but it sounds like you dont have any problems with this at all.
it sounds to me like the problem you are having is not having enoguh area for the charge air to interact with, as your coolant temperature levels are staying pretty low.
of course, the answer is to increase the area that is in contact with the charge area, which unfortunately can only be done by replacing your air to water exhanger.
if you have a smallish intercooler lying (series 5 RX7 would work well,)around and some mechanical savvy, you can make one failry easily, but i have never tried one of this type.
what you do is fabricate ducting so the charge air passes through where the cooling air used to go, then weld up the air inlet and outlet and install fittings for coolant hoses.
this way you have a large surface area for the charge air, and ample area for the cooling water, and an ugly heat exhanger that may be a bitch to fit in your engine bay.
im planning on convincing my mate to go down this path eventually, i am very interested in testing the PWR setup more.
EDIT:
oh yeah, the one quick tip i can give you that should be easy to do is this.
heat exhangers work best when set up in a "counter flow" arrangement, that is cold water goes in where the air is coolest, and comes out (hotter) where the air is hottest. in this way you maintain the greatest average temperature difference.
in your application i doubt this will make much difference, as i think the temperatyre of the water in your barrel would be fairly constant throughout.
good luck!
[Updated on: Thu, 03 February 2005 23:48]
|
|
|
Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Thu, 03 February 2005 23:55
|
|
Definately test with straight water. Temperature isn't anywhere near as important as specific heat when it comes to cooling.
Water has almost twice the specific heat of ethanol meaning it takes almost twice as much energy to increase the temperature of the same mass of water by the same amount as the ethanol. This is also compounded by the fact that the ethanol is less dense than water.
Specific heats:
Water
4200 joules/kg/kelvin
Ethanol
2400 joules/kg/kelvin
A fifty fifty mix by volume of Ethanol and water will also have a density of around 930 grams/Litre rather than 1kg/L for straight water.
|
|
|
Registered:
August 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Fri, 04 February 2005 02:14
|
|
shinyblue steel, as I already have the 6" PWR barrell on my engine, and the 10" long version at that, I don't think I would worry about testing a series 5 coolers, as the one on my car is far better, don't know if you realised I had the PWR Water to air cooler on my car when you wrote above.
Although I do have the hoses going the right way, it goes in the coldest where the air is coldest(oulet side of cooler) and exits to the front mounted radiator on the intake or hottest side of the cooler. But looking at those figures from joshstix, I will be trying the water on its own, then going to water and glycol, and lastly there is a new product on the market called water wetter, it is suppsoed to make the water more dense and makes engines run cooler, the guy that I know has a sprint car and put it in, and it reduced the average operating temperature of the engine 6 degress, he actually took half of it out as it was a little too cold for optimum combustion or something he said.
I just hope the water actually stays cool, as yes, it may keep the intake charge cooler, but will be a lot harder to keep cool, or get cooler again once it gets hot.
Thanks guys.................6BOOST
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Fri, 04 February 2005 20:38
|
|
Ah yes Shinybluesteel-the heat exchanger bits from uni sure come in handy eh? That was what I was going to ask as well-is the system set up in Coutercurrent configuration?(looks like it is 6BOOST)
I'd tend to agree that there simply isn't enough area for the water to charge-air interface. If you can tell me the ID of the charge air tubes, their length and how many there are I'll crunch some numbers if you like. Considering that the average Air to Air has internal fining to maximise surface area, if these aren't internally finned you may be pushing poo uphill due to inadequate surface area. Although you may not need the surface area on the outside due to the liquid-you still require the same internal surface area for the charge air to be able to ditch its heat as fast as it does in an air to air set-up
As was mentioned before, enclosing air to air cores in coolant jackets can give great results. Here in adelaide there used to be an RX4 (now crashed.....) that used an enclosed series 5 core, an electric pump, a small radiator and dry ice can. When they had that all set up and on the dyno, sometimes the intake temps were down to 0deg on the datalog! It also made 280or so RWKW on about 15psi. The cooler wasn't the most free flowing item, but it made up for it in effectiveness.....
One other question, what sort of pump are you using 6BOOST? I ask as it may benefit from a restiction in the circuit. With engine cooling, removing the thermostat tends to screw up the flowrate by reducing system pressure and resulting in pump cavitation. The RX4 I mentioned had a couple of restrictors in the circuit which made a huge difference. Without them, the unresticted circuit was only circlating 50% of the volume of the restricted circuit. He was just using the black and green poly gardening system taps ($5or something) and did an open circuit test to tweak the restrictors into the best spot for flow.
Of course if we are takling a positive displacement pump ignore all the crap I just spouted........
How go the turbo ford motors these days mate? Once I went down the large capacity 6cyl turbo route (armed with a few bits of info from youself) I've never had so much success. (4.5L turbo landcruiser motor in 72 crown, SUPERCROWN on PF)
Take it easy
Sean
Adealaide
|
|
|
Registered:
August 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Sun, 06 February 2005 11:15
|
|
Hey sean, hope you have had as much fun as I did with the big cube engines, I haven't played with one in a while, I just built a mild turbo 4 litre with cast exhaust manifold and internally gated 60-1 turbo, but still yet to dyno, probably just a 350rwhp car.
As for the cooler, the internal cores are absolutely identicle as the PWR front mount cores, they have all the little same fins inside them, I think they add up to 19 rows of a 73mm tube if you stacked them like an A/A, the PWR front mount has 17 in a 600x300 configuration. the tubes are 250mm long. I don't know if you have access or could guess the area of the finning to calculate if it is sufficient to dissipate the heat needed.
My pump is a bosh pump, not disimilar to a Davies Craig booster pump, not the water pump one for the radiator, but the smaller booster pump for heaters and shit. It flows 35 litres/min at 12 volts so I'm guessin maybe 38-40 litres at 14 volts. The system you talk of I seen in a magazine some years ago, think it was zoom, grey 2 door RX4, they system seemed pretty basic, although it obviously worked. I am interested in the bit you are talking about restrictors though. Slowing down my pump speed is no problem whatsoever, Jaycar makes a very simply kit that can be built and will control pump speed with voltage and stuff, so I can slow it down, but I'm not sure if that would give the same result as restriction. I can't see how it wouldn't give the same result, as its all effectively just slowing the coolant down.
The reason I'm pretty sure it didn't need sloing down, is that there is absolutely no air pockets in the system, and the coolant is at 0deg before a run, so any new fluid, no matter how FAST it is pumped through the core, is going to be below ambient, so I would imagine it would work the same. You can't compare this to how fast the coolant goes through the radiator at the front of the car, if you think of it more in depth, that would be comparing the air going through the cooler, not the water in the front, the water in the W/A system isn't having troubles cooling down in the system, its fantastic, so its nothing at all like a car overheating, or without a thermistat, the collant is C.O.L.D, and the air is heating up tooooo much.
The only 2 things that can make this system work better, is if the cooling medium is wrong, so I need to take out the ethanol. Or that it needs MORE pump speed, because its not pumping the heated fluid IN the barrell cooler out fast enough as the hot air from the turbo passes through.
What you think??
Cheers.....................6BOOST
[Updated on: Sun, 06 February 2005 11:16]
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Sun, 06 February 2005 11:40
|
|
| 680OST wrote on Fri, 04 February 2005 13:14 |
But looking at those figures from joshstix, I will be trying the water on its own, then going to water and glycol, and lastly there is a new product on the market called water wetter,
I just hope the water actually stays cool, as yes, it may keep the intake charge cooler, but will be a lot harder to keep cool, or get cooler again once it gets hot.
|
well.. ethylene glycol (your average green radiator stuff) is actually pretty close the ethanol in makeup.. it just has an extra OH group (so there are two, not one, on the 2 carbon chain...) whereas ethanol will lower the freezing point of water, ethylene glycol will also raise the boiling temperature in addition to lowering the freezing point.
again, ethylene glycol has a lower heat capacity than water, so don't go overboard with it.. you only need to add enough to stop the water either freezing or boiling..
have you measured the temperature of the fluid as it enters and leaves the barrel cooler? if the fluid is not heating up by the end of the barrel, then it's a lack of heat transfer problem, which is a function of the coolers surface area AND the thermal conductivity of the fluid. if the fluid is very hot, then you have a lack of heat capacity problem, which is just a fluid problem. faster rate of fluid flow will not help the first problem, but will assist on the second.
you can use any dodgy outdoor digital thermometer, or if you want to get nifty, a ADC datalogger and some LM35CZ (or DZ) precision temp sensors will be noice..
oh, and watter wetter has been around for yeeeeaaars aiui it alters the surface tension of the fluid, and results in greater fluid contact with all the nooks and crannys in your motor, and also decreases the possibility of local bubble formation at hotspots.. this could be an answer, but i think you should monitor the temperature before and after the barrel, and also before and after the radiator. Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
|
Location:
sydney
Registered:
January 2005
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Mon, 07 February 2005 06:42
|
|
|
regardless of what form of intercooling, when you blip the throttle the intake temps go through the roof (as far as expectations go) i work on mercs and when the circulation pump fails on the water to air systems in them intake temps reach 300+ degrees. that is critical intake temp. not 63. if you really want to boost the cooling efficiency in this system combine the barrel, for charge air, with water injection at throttle body. if set up properly you can benefit in all ways. dense spay will vapourise, absorbing heat, cleaning behind valves etc. research first pls dont think im bonkers..
|
|
|
Location:
On your mum!
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Mon, 07 February 2005 06:56
|
|
fatboy - I think that you're bonkers. I have seen in excess of 105deg c non intercooled with a small turbo pumping lots of boost (well 20psi) after repeated runs with very little (read NIL) cool down period.
300deg is insane - I am not discrediting you though - I understand that diesels especially the marine variety are subject to high boost levels for extended periods of time! On a petrol engine though 300deg is more than critical - it would be catastrophic.
680OST is correct - 63deg is unacceptable.
|
|
|
Location:
sydney
Registered:
January 2005
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Mon, 07 February 2005 08:00
|
|
reference i made was to a new amg. 5.5l with a twin-scroll blower. when running making 12psi max. big motor big temps. i mislead you possibly. i meant im not bonkers on the topic of water injection. but between me an you, the germans have lost the plot in a serious way.
i have not seen inlet temps on forced cars below 30-40 deg C using common intercooling systems. drag cars with ice boxes and blah blah im not including. there are CO 2 kits now that run a barrel and work similarly to an a/c system. compressor with tx valve and cooling cores throughout the barrel.. blah blah.
overkill. to be an annoying brat i think that looking at ways to increase fuel and boost to be the easier way to create power than efficiency.
|
|
|
Registered:
August 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 09 February 2005 08:36
|
|
Considering that with an Air to Air front mount, the temperature only rose from around 28-35degrees to max 48 degrees on a run, and I'm now running dry ice in a tank with the water temps below 0degC, 63 degrees in my books is rediculous!!
Ok, in time, I will test the water temps goin in and out of the cooler. I really want to figure out what the fug is wrong with the system. The only problem with this whole senario, is that if the barrell is just too inefficient at pulling the heat out of the air, then what do I do?? I'm damn sure pwr aren't going to give me a cent back, nor for the other $2000 I spent setting up the system. I can however detur any other potential buyer in Australia from buying one if they don't:o)
6BOOST
Thanks for the help guys
|
|
|
Location:
adelaide
Registered:
November 2004
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 09 February 2005 08:57
|
|
hmm, all this has kinda killed my plans. when i was looking at them at summernats the guy was saying how much better thay were so i was kinda set on getting one, also thinking of having it under the bonnet so it i dont have a huge sign (fmic) on the front saying DEFECT ME!!!
there must be away for them to work efficiently.
jesse
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Wed, 09 February 2005 12:14
|
|
It's alright fatboy, I don't think you're bonkers. Hang on, I'll rephrase that, I don't think you're any madder than I, myself, am.
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: thoughts on barrel coolers???
|
Thu, 10 February 2005 07:59
|
|
Hi there 6BOOST, sorry for the delay-I just needed to find time to put a decent response together to fully explain why restriction is important in a centrifugal pumping system.
Here goes-
Just slowing the pump down won't have the same effect as generating some pump outlet pressure. Centrifugal pumps require some pressure head to work properly. In an engine cooling pump the system resistance is provided by the thermostat general cooling circuit-although the design of many factory water pumps is truly terrible. (In many factory cooling systems as soon as the engine temp comes up and the engine is given any decent revs the impeller is just cavitating in foam. You can see this by taking pressure readings before and after the pump, and once cavitiation begins the outlet pressure drops through the floor. This is why the external electric water pumps work so well-they are not controlled by engine revs and so you can avoid the high pump speeds that cause the impeller to cavitate. They also have good curved type impellers like a turbo, not the shitty straight pressed steel cavitation specials fitted to many factory cars. All the sharp edges are what cause small regions of low pressure in the hot moving fluid which then causes the fluid to boil instantly-known as cavitation-and the engine pump doesn’t pump a foamy froth too well at all…………&am p;#8230;. Anyway-I digress)
Keep the pump running flat out, and then slowly increase the restriction post pump outlet by slowly closing a valve (1/2 or 3/4 inch black poly watering system tap). As a test, have the system operating open circuit with water, and have it emptying into a bucket (at the same level as the pump inlet-and don’t have the pump pulling from an elevated source as this can disguise results).
Measure the flow rate, and you should see a rise as the restriction increases up to a point, and then it should fall away again as the resistance begins to hurt flow rate. The max flow is at the pumps max efficiency point for the given pump speed-just like a turbo(ie a centrifigal pump) If you have a look at a centrifugal pump curve (ie turbo comp map), you will see that trying to run a pump with a massive pressure ratio and incorrect mass flow will put you over the surge line. At the same time however, you’ll notice from the graph that running a pump with too little pressure ratio will also put you way outside the efficient operating range for the pump. (I only know this boring crap as I did a lot of pumping stuff at uni for my mining degree-there is a lot of shit to be pumped about at mines.)
Aaaanyway, the lack of restriction diagnosis seems logical to me here at the end of a keyboard, but the proof will come with your testing. From what you described it sounds like the barrel cooler has a reasonable internally finned set-up giving a decent area, and you are running it in a counter current configuration which maximises temp differential and hence rate of heat transfer between the two fluids. It should work better than it does, and a bit of dicking about should bring the performance up a fair bit. Once you have the flow rate checked and maximised start taking temp difference measurements on the water inlet/outlet and air inlet/outlet just as SHINYBLUESTEEL mentioned before. Once you have a measured and proven flowrate it should all be a lot more clear what is going on.
Are you using a radiator for the coolant in the system or a coil and ice bucket set-up? Send me some pics if you can, I’d be interested to see the setup, the inside of the core etc. Keep me posted if the restriction works-otherwise I’ll put together a few other suggestions and start crunching some numbers for you. I’m curious as I’d like to set one up on the crown in the next 6 months or so to make the intake charge temp less variable with atmospheric temp variations.
Take it easy
Sean
PS-My big cube turbo engine is about to really get a wake-up-I take posession of an 800hp GT-42 in a couple of weeks. Fun fun fun fun…………&am p;#8230;……
|
|
|
| Current Time:
Tue May 14 16:46:00 UTC 2024 |
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.0077991485595703 seconds |
