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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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keeping it NA
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Thu, 17 June 2004 15:12
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okay heres the deal, i have a ST184 celica, with the not so cool 5SFE engine, thinking about making a move to the 3SGE from the jap spec ST204 ~i managed to come across one from a mate of a mate~ i believe its a series 3 engine, which would be great as i should run 127Kw.
anyways i would be putting in the engine and 6sp gear box from the 204, i have been lead to believe that the engine is a straight swap as the 5SFE is pretty much the same engine stroked with econmy heads, therefore engine mounts "should" be the same along with gearbox bellhousing.
what i would like to know, is doesn't any one know if i'm goin to find any problems with doin this and do i need to get it engineered? the thoughts so far on the engineering part is that its a lower capasity engine and the 3sge is a jap spec engine for my car anyway, so i don't think i need to get this engineered.
any thoughts on the matter would be appricated
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: keeping it NA
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Thu, 17 June 2004 15:47
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Been done before, so long as you're reasonably capable with working on cars you should be able to manage it. As for legalities, I can't really speak for the QLD perspective - best to ring Queensland Transport
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 00:26
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You might be able to 'bolt' on a series 2 3S-GE head as well.
The engine/gearbox mounts are the same (both 'S' series blocks).
I think whenever you change the engine number you have to at least it get inspected by the RTA or whatever, but more than likely you won't need an engineers certificate for swapping in an engine that goes into celica's anyway.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 01:00
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also keep in mind that the engine that goes in will need to be of equal or better emissions than the original one..
i reckon weigh up pros and cons of making 5SGE vs 3SGE.. are the 5S bottom ends that much weaker? that hard to put the G head on? (might save a bit of hassle with rego  )
good luck!
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 01:16
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I don't know of anyone who has actually done any testing on the 5S crank to prove that it is weaker.
While they did add two balance shafts to the 5S engine later on (1995 or 1996) that is not related to weakness/longevity issues - it's a NVH issue that manufacturers always talk about.
If you use the 5S-FE pistons and rods, then fitting the head on would be easy, but I can't say what compression you will end up with - the FE pistons are dish type, whereas the GE pistons are dome type.
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 02:26
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well as for getting it checked out by the RTA i wouldn't be worried about that, the emmission would be beta then my current engine even with the G on it, the main reason for moving to the 3SGE engine is because altho the engine mounts are pretty much the same between the engines, the 5SFE missed out on many vital engine internals ~so i have read, i now sure on what exactly~. and for emissions they wouldn't know what my current car is running, but the engine should apply with the current emissions standards, but i would assume that it would have only to apply to the standards for that year of engine like the whole if my car was made in 85 i don't need a CAT.
thanks for your knowledgeable advice, please keep it coming.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 02:32
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Whoa there nelly!
The 3rd Gen 3S-GE was made to japanese emissions specs - which mean it may be missing some components to comply with our emissions regulations. Having said that, it is newer and may have better emissions regardless.
Either way, check that out first.
Vital engine internals being missed out on? Differences between 5S-FE and 3rd gen 3S-GE are pretty big - just about everything is different except for the block. Even that may be different as I believe they changed the S series block design at about 1996 or something?
I would imagine there would be almost no shared components between the two engines, except maybe the gudgeon pins and crankshaft journals 
You might be better off trying to get the 2nd gen 3S-GE out of the MR2 as they came out with Australian emissions equipment and pumped out a neat 117kW and 196Nm of torque and has a redline about 1000revs after your car's (7300 vs 6300ish).
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 02:46
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A coupla things. The ST204 is still a 5 speed so you won't be getting a 6 speed box.
Emission wise the jap motor won't have an EGR so won't comply. That said, you cares, just give them the new engine number there won't be any requirement to inpsect. Personally i wouldn't even bother with that, who is gonna know and who is gonna care if and when it's noticed that the engine number is different.
If you just do the head swap i'm pretty sure you have to do a piston swap as well as the valve flycuts will be different. I think it would actually require a custom piston.
Your biggest issue will be with the ECU, you either need to graft in the 3SGE ECU or go aftermarket.
The engine will bolt straight in so no problems there.
BTW what sort of condition is the 5S in? Looking for an upgrade for the wife's RAV4 with the 3SFE
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 02:54
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| Quote: |
If you just do the head swap i'm pretty sure you have to do a piston swap as well as the valve flycuts will be different. I think it would actually require a custom piston.
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Depends whether you want a non-interferance engine - and whether or not the compression ratio is any good after changing the head over (chances are it won't be).
You can go another route - modify the 5S crank and use 3S conrods and pistons. Then you have the bother of sorting out another 2mm of piston height, there are ways around this and you could still end up with good compression and non-interference - but it requires either custom rods (not cheap) or machining some stuff (less desirable).
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 02:58
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Custom piston probably is the easiest way but quite expensive...doing the slightly more dodgy job is alot cheaper (I probably wouldn't bother with something like custom conrods) but reliability may be an issue.
The 5S pistons probably aren't suitable for 7300rpm either because they have such a short skirt for the longer stroke.
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 04:07
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okay first things first, the 5SFE has 143 000km on it today, its goin in for it service on tuesday, as far as i know its in fairly good conditions i had to replace the map sensor on it tho, i also changed the timming belt and seals when i go it, as i wasn't sure if it had been done ~no log book :(~ when i got the timming belt off i i relised it had been done at 100 000Kms oops, beta safe then sorry.
as for retro fitting heads and pistons that will be tooo messy, i think the square 86, 86 engine is the go, i did meantion i will be getting the whole jap spec 204 front cut, i'm planning on put in the complete wiring and everything in my car.
as for power ratings it should be 127Kw and 186Nm if my specs are right, its a 1994 engine not after 1996. i believe the gen 2 was used from 1990 to 1993. ~i may be wrong i pulled that out of my arse, at least i'm honest~ i would probably still put in the new gear box depending on what the condition is in.
keep the advice comming please.
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 04:12
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and i stand corrected it is a 5sp
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 08:09
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Do u mean st202 not Jap spec st204? I know the st202 had a 3sge with 6 speed as thats what im lookin at gettin to put into my 162. Im sortave after the same Q's as u then. Engineering,fitment? Sorry to hijack sorta
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 June 2004 09:42
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just tell them its a mr2 motor from a aussie SW20 bathurst model this had a 3rd gen 3sge motor in it and came out from dec 1993 to the end of 1997
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: keeping it NA
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Sun, 20 June 2004 09:26
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just to keep it in all of your faces, and i would also like to know if anyone has done a engine swap b4, what problems would i get into? would it be beta to get it done by a professional rather then a mechanic friend, and how much would it cost?
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: keeping it NA
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Thu, 17 March 2005 08:33
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hahaha i will dig up the past, engine swap should be happing soon, it will be mod plated as well.
i will be posting up a project write up on ozcelica.com in the 5th gen section, might put it up here too if i feel like it!!!
stay tuned
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: keeping it NA
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Thu, 17 March 2005 08:42
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*curious* so what did they say about emissions and the 3sge? mod plate sounds overkill - im in brissy too so curious what you found out as far as emissions and the plating goes. (its something i dont know much about - i figure good to ask now so iknow the answer if anyone asks me later
Cheers
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: keeping it NA
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Thu, 17 March 2005 09:13
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| CelicaRA45 wrote on Fri, 18 June 2004 19:42 |
just tell them its a mr2 motor from a aussie SW20 bathurst model this had a 3rd gen 3sge motor in it and came out from dec 1993 to the end of 1997
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thr 3rd gen engine was released here the later sw20's has the 3rd gen 3sge. thats the route id be plugging as far as paperwork. im sure you should have any grief getting it passed.
even if you needed to get an engineering cert for it i shouldnt see it being too much grief. id probaly want one just to be on the safe side. but if you didnt go down the engineering path id play the odds that just a blue slip would pass no grief. smaller capacity, same engine family i couldnt see it being too much grief.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: keeping it NA
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Thu, 17 March 2005 10:32
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narrow angle head for one, and i dont think anyone makes any for the 5s at least no off the shelf numbers. i wouldnt do a thing to the 5s its far from an exciting motor.... having owned one 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: keeping it NA
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Thu, 17 March 2005 10:49
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| toof wrote on Thu, 17 March 2005 18:32 |
narrow angle head for one, and i dont think anyone makes any for the 5s at least no off the shelf numbers. i wouldnt do a thing to the 5s its far from an exciting motor.... having owned one
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Narrow angle wont stop NA power.
But sourcing cams could be a problem.
Its not something I've looked into, or plan to
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: keeping it NA
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Thu, 17 March 2005 23:02
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siemese head, that will prevent me from changing them, i would have to change the whole heads, then thats more problems, its just too messy, and as said the engine is nothing special i was even told that i was missing come engine internals in comparission to the one what i will be running.
umm as for emmissions ~shrugs~ i really can't see that being a problem!!!
oh yeah does any one have a SS-III gearbox lying around that i can have, i have a lack of a LSD right now!!!!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 March 2005 00:32
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| DunkyMonkey wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 07:02 |
siemese head, that will prevent me from changing them, i would have to change the whole heads, then thats more problems, its just too messy, and as said the engine is nothing special i was even told that i was missing come engine internals in comparission to the one what i will be running.
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Yes, when I first mentioned it I forgot about the scissor gears on the cams.
I wonder how close they are to 1uzfe cams?
Many places have off the shelf cams for that now.
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: keeping it NA
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Fri, 18 March 2005 13:38
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well at least you know what i was talking about, some ppl will just scrach there heas about sissor gears.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: keeping it NA
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Sat, 19 March 2005 05:01
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ive had someone look at my old 5sfe and say that it had to be single cam because they couldnt see where you would fit two cam gear belts on there. i figured it wasnt worth the time explaining that it was twin cam esp since in the 10 min they were looking at it they somehow missed the "TWIN CAM 16" on the tappet cover. so yeah the toyota F twin cam heads seem to confuse some ppl
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Location:
VIC, Sth Frankston.
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: keeping it NA
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Sat, 19 March 2005 05:36
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love those hidden gears for the cams in those F motors... could almost make someone believe they were sohc, both with looks and power
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: keeping it NA
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Sun, 20 March 2005 00:28
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i fail to agree with you there!!!
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