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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Location:
Belgium
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Thu, 10 March 2005 14:09
 
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Have you tried www.accmats.com yet please ?
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Thu, 10 March 2005 14:18
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they sell car matts? thanks but wrong type of matting
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Fri, 11 March 2005 00:12
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Not sure about victoria but a company here called Blackwoods can supply you with the chrome molly.
Look for a company called advanced composited for the carbon, They are more industrial suppliers but they could give you a leed on where you can commercially obtain it.
Other than that, try the aerospace industry (local airport), although they may charge a premium cos all their stuff will have traceability certificates attached.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Fri, 11 March 2005 09:28
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The back of Auto Action used to (and may still) have an ad for a company that dealt with CrMo tubing - might have been called RaceAlloy or something.
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Location:
qld
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Sat, 12 March 2005 01:36
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i would suggest driving around an idustrial estate. the only place i ever had cro-mo work done is a motorcycle frame builder/modifier.
also ask any general engineering type places, look in the yellow pages, ones that advertise that they weld it/ stainless/ do tig work.
some places just make lame crap out of mild steel, but i know of one a mate works for that stocks chromoly.. and ti.
there would also be a listing of some description in the yellow pages of steal suppliers.
yellow pages also has a "fibre glass suppliers" listing. and some of them also list carbon.
you can use carbon mat just like (fibre)glass, with epoxy resin if youre just after the look.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Sat, 12 March 2005 03:53
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if he's gong to the trouble of looking up proper cro-mo suppliers and not cheaping out on imitation crap, I'm guessing he wants real carbon fibre too  (not the typical jap stuff that is all fibreglass except 1 top layer of carbon fibre)
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Location:
qld
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Sat, 12 March 2005 04:02
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so you reckon hes got an autoclave out the back? can i use it?
real carbon on a raod sprinter.. cant think of many reasons.. nothing wrong with pretending as far as cf goes... everyone does it. so that makes it ok.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
qld
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Sat, 12 March 2005 04:09
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autoclave. the big oven that gets real hot. they "bake" probably more correct cure the cf in.
about as much as i know either.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Sat, 12 March 2005 04:13
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yeah, i know it needs high pressure (like 100psi or something) and high temps
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Sun, 13 March 2005 21:22
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thanks for the tips guys I will do some more searching. So far I have called a few local metal suppliers in my area and one had never heard of Cro-Mo before... right ok.
As for the carbon fiber I want to not have to use an over so using the technique like fiberglass with a wet layup into a normal mould, is there a problem with this? I have to say I havent done alot of research into using carbon yet but I can use fiberglass to some extent. Also if its an extenal part I am going to paint over it, so that pretty much shows what i think about ricing up a car with the whole race look carbon. If it doesnt prove worth it to use that material then I will use fiberglass again. I would like to make a few ducts and covers most likely. Maybe a bonnet if I get adventurous.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Sun, 13 March 2005 23:27
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There is nothing wrong with a wet layup, I used to build aeroplanes that way and CASA was happy with it.
Pre-preg materials are great if you have access to an autoclav but it's unnecessary.
My advice is if you want it for weight saving, you lay it up as a single ply of carbon, followed by a foam core, say 1/4in (8mm)thick then another carbon ply. This will give you a very light part (say 1/2 kg bonnet) but will still be stiff enough so that it doesn't flap around.
If they don't know what Chro-Mo is ask for Chrome Molly or 4130 (it's alloy designation)
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Sun, 13 March 2005 23:49
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thanks for the great info, yeah your right I should of just asked for it by the number, I will ring a few places tommorow asking for 4130 grade steel, that should get me somewhere.
As for the foam it sounds pretty good too, however where do I get it from and are there any problems with the carbon bonding to it? is it that blue dense stuff? lastly do you have any problems with the carbon causes corrosion on what you made? I will probably put a fine sheet of fiberglass over either side of whatever I make to stop any metal contact. I need to do some research soon I think.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Mon, 14 March 2005 00:03
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The composite suppliers can give you this stuff. We used a product called vinicore which is like an open cell expanded foam. It is white in colour.
There are other foam products around and you could even use nomex honeycomb but for what you want, I wouldn't recommend it. It is very easy to end up filling the core with resin when you are doing a wet layup. If you do that, you end up with a heavy part. A scrim cloth could be used but why bother when the foam cores are so easy to use and on thin sections work just as well.
Talk to your supplyer and tell them what you intend using it for, I am sure they will sort you out with something that will do the job.
No probs with the carbon bonding to the core.
Corrosion wise, carbon is corrosive on ally, but I don't think there are any problems with steel.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Mon, 14 March 2005 00:26
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i saw a nice nomex cored carbon 'tile' yesterday.. 4 layer carbon... damn it was solid!!!
pressure chamber is always good when using any resin/plastic/matting as the pressure compresses the bubbles and helps increase the matrix/fibre contact.
i've heard that if you have carbon rubbing on steel, the steel will start to rust very quickly, not sure why (tho i think it's due to the microscratches causing high surface energy.. btu there's probably a better reason)
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Mon, 14 March 2005 01:55
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4 layers of carbon would be heaps strong, we only used 1-2 layers either side of the core on most of the aircraft parts.
Checked the Galvanic series, Steel and Graphite are a long way apart, so it's probably not a good idea to put them together.
Use a barrier ply of light weight glass where your gonna have metal touching the carbon or fasteners through it. I would use something light such as 110gsm glass cloth.
Just a bit of advice, you should either build in a close out on the core (ie have the carbon overlapping the edge of the core to seal it up) or ofter you cure/trim it to shape, dig out 1/4inch of the core edge and fill with resin. Otherwise the core can get moisture in it.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Mon, 14 March 2005 02:41
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| gold28 wrote on Mon, 14 March 2005 12:55 |
4 layers of carbon would be heaps strong, we only used 1-2 layers either side of the core on most of the aircraft parts.
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heh heh, it's for his thesis (and he works for Qantas  ) i'm very sure i could throw that thing through a windscreen easily.
keep the excellent advice coming 
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
April 2003
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Mon, 14 March 2005 13:55
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awesome info guys
gold28: I will check out the foam , it sounds very promising, I am curious what price did u get your matting for? I think i was quoted $42 for one square meter of 200g sheet.
Bazooka: when their site is back I will see hwat they have thanks, being in the wrong state might be an issue though
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Mon, 14 March 2005 20:33
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Not sure what the price was as I was only involved with the engineering, not purchasing. As we were in a production environment, we would have got bulk prices anyway. That price doesn't sound unreasonable though.
Is there a particular reason why you want to use carbon?
You could use a glass woven mat with 2x 200/220gsm plys either side of a core. It will still be plenty strong and a lot lighter than any steel panel. Normally when glass panels are made, they use chopped strand mat and heaps of it. No core, just 1/4inch of glass and resin. Hence the weight saving is not great but if you use woven mat and a core, it will be really light and plenty stiff enough. Have a think about it. It would save you some cash over a carbon panel but you wouldn't have the same bragging rites.
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Tue, 15 March 2005 03:06
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Just give them a call and they can send you out a price list. I have an old one lying around here somewhere. They will have no problem shipping to Victoria. Im in Queensland and I found them after a few companies up here told me they supply to them.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Tue, 15 March 2005 10:13
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gold28: your idea sounds very good with the fiberglass, I don't care about bragging rights because I would paint over it anyway. I will get some of this foam and try it out, it sounds very promising. I was thinking of doing something like this a while ago but didn't because I was unsure about which foam to use. So do I have to use an epoxy or is a resin still ok?
and I will check out the links people have posted it is much appreciated, as is the tips I have received, awesome info.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Tue, 15 March 2005 20:40
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Carbon is more used where you need a high strength composite. I doubt that it is really needed for body panels, nor rear-view mirrors and centre consoles
Most resins will do fine. Epoxy is easy to get and use, I would go with that. You could use a vinyl ester which is what they use in a lot of composite boats. It doesn't absorb moisture like epoxy does. Either would be fine.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Wed, 16 March 2005 01:41
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For the 4140 (chrome - molly) tube you could try some of the roll cage manufacturers, eg. Brown Davis.
Fiber Glass International supply carbon as well as fiber glass and foam.
Phone # (03)9550 5656
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Where to buy: Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon
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Wed, 16 March 2005 11:46
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I was interested in using carbon because it the greater rigidity over the glass. I would of thought that too many layers would be needed in fiberglass to gain enough rigidity for something like a bonnet. Basicly I dont want to be afraid of someone sitting on my bonnnet and damaging it, giving me no choice but to hurt them. However the foam idea should take care of that, I will definelty look into it.
So whats vinyl ester? I have never heard of it.
leigh: thanks I will give them a call.
One other thing, how would you guys sujest I make a composite bonnet? my idea was to make an inverse mould directly off the original in multiple layers of fiberglass mixed with all sorts of things to keep it rigid, like thin bits of wood. Then from there use that to make a copy of the original and go from there. Would this work or am I being nieve? I have so far only used crude moulds and never a negaive one, although I am pretty happy with my results so far. I think fiberglass is horrible to work with but can really have some amazing results. I have for ages though I would make a bonnet out of lighter than one of carbon, that would open a few eyes.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Wed, 16 March 2005 22:07
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If you are not sure how strong it will be, why not make up a sample and test it, me thinks you might be surprised. The carbon is definitly stronger, but the stiffness has a lot to di with shape and thickness. You may even want to put some foam ribs on the under side to stiffen it further, like the steel channels on the underside of the original bonnet.
vinyl ester is just another type of resin. I would just stick to an epoxy though.
Your suggestion about the mould sounds good, just be careful to put a release agent on the bonnet otherwise you will never peel the mould off. Normally for production runs or a few parts, a mold such as this is made and just supported with a timber frame. This works fine but will fall apart after a few attempts.
If you intend on making lots'a carbon bonnets and selling them to the drift monkeys, then I would suggest making a more durable mould.
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Fri, 18 March 2005 13:23
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I will try a demo, I always do with stuff like this as I dont have money and time to burn.
So why an epoxy? will a resin eat into the foam? or is it to insteead make it bond with the foam? where can I buy this resin from if I don't want to source it from a fiberglass place?
I wouldnt be making more than one that I can see, the drifters can look elsewhere I don't have time to spend that much time on them at this stage.
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Location:
Liverpool, Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Fri, 18 March 2005 14:25
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Sorry to jump into the convo but when you say foam is it for making it more rigid??
A good thing for strength and rigidity(sp?) also is coremat.. it comes in different thicknesses.. it would be good for a bonnet because it is good for flat large surfaces to make it much stronger and rigid (lessens the chance of warpeage too)
Are you using carbon for strength or for the looks of it?
If its for strength there are other reinforcemnt fabrics you could use such as Kevlar and Woven matting...
Do you have a mould yet?
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Fri, 18 March 2005 21:40
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what is and where can I get this Coremat? With my bonnet idea I do not yet have a mould as I am still seeing my options. Right now my confidence is growing in me being able to create a bonnet that won't stand out as being a rough home job. I do have my parcel shelf mould that I am still working on that I am stuck with, I will post a pic of that. I would use the carbon for strength and rigidity as I am trying to acheive both. In particular would be the adges of the bonnet where people are likely to sit, you know how it is: no matter what you do people will by nature still lean or sit on it. I have had a look at kevlar breifly, whats its properties compared to fiberglass and carbon again? I know its cheaper than carbon thats for sure.
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Fri, 18 March 2005 21:55
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Just thought I would post what I have sucessfully done before:
I did this about 3 years back, although I did it a relatively crude method I was really happy with the result and it works really well.
What I did is put wooden boards under the frame and then covered it with glad wrap so as to create a big pocket. The in about 4 goes covered the inside with plaster and moulded it by hand. Once I have a mould I just put more glad wrap over the top again and then added the matting. What I used is a medium grade fiberglass woven matt with a bit of a black pigment impregnated into the resin which worked real well and saved me from attempting to paint it. I admit this is rough but it's increadibly light and I have had a 130kg+ guy take this for a spin and came back with two thumbs up.
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Fri, 18 March 2005 22:12
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seeing I am getting such good info I thought I would ask about this problem I currently have, this is my current in the making parcel shelf:
Now the initial plan was to use this light weight wood assembly as a support and just have a thin fiberglass skin. Now however I have changed my mind and I want to make a few self supporting "skins" for not only me but also my friends. Now heres the question guys: I want to use this as a mould but I dont want to wreck it, I want to be able to use this as it is later on maybe. What can I do to make a mould out of this but make it reversable? I was told a while ago about using a curtain on top and giving it a once over with spray on glue, then using that as the base. Would it work? is there a better way? of will I have to just fill this monstrosity up with plaster and bog?
thanks once again guys, your help is appreciated
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Location:
Liverpool, Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Sun, 20 March 2005 07:11
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Dont use bog and filler to fill it, use cloth and resin and then just use the bog to smooth it in...
That peice cant be used as a 'mould' as such, it can be a plug, and be taken a mould of...
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Location:
Gympie Qld
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Sun, 20 March 2005 11:01
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Interesting Sam.
Another way to get the parcel tray right is to mix resin and talcum powder (cheap baby powder)into a light filler and apply that where needed to fill some of the voids. I have a client who builds boats and I have seen him use this.
You could try and take a mould off the tray as it (with some sort of release method) if you want to save it and then work on tidying up that mould before using or taking another mould again but that would be much more work, time and materials but the only way if you want to retain the original tray in timber finish.
Also if you don't want to use a gel coat for a coloured look you can add a small amount of gel coat to your resin mix if you don't want the basic glass coloured look.
As for making moulds he gets his plugs very smooth and then waxes them before taking the mould off it. This is used for the boat parts to get a perfectly smooth finish. They also wax the mould instead of using a release agent as it's smoother.
I once moulded a motorbike rear mudguard off a Suzuki RGV250 by sanding it super smooth inside and moulding off that. It was good but with the release agent not totally perfect. Probably even more important when you use gel coat.
If you wanted some good how too's on moulding and glassing you should try and get ahold of some old issues of Performance Cars I think it was they did a series of articles from basic fibreglassing to proper mould making with special mould stuff rather than just glass.
your idea of a timber frame to teh mould is spot on. The boat guys mould it around a steel frame as they are going to use it hundreds of times.
For your bonnet shape and strength why not take a mould of both sides and then join them together with a sandwich layer of whichever foam style product you choose. The ribs on the underside would add heaps of tortional strength as well and of course it would look correct also.
you probably also want to resin in a steel or alloy plate where your brackets, hinges etc go to spread the load better and give more strength in those sections. Cut away the foam there and add alloy plate of same thickness or something.
Again the boat guys sandwich in ply sheets.
I assume you also already know you cannot have any inverse curves or corners etc in a one piece mould or you will have bucklies getting the panel out without damaging one or the other. That's when you ahevt o start getting involved with 2 piece bolt together moulds.
Gavin
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Location:
Liverpool, Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Sun, 20 March 2005 12:15
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It wouldnt be worth taking 2 moulds of the tray as usually, with mouldmaking, the plug is damaged/destroyed in the cracking out process.. well, as this one is wood, it might hold up, but any filling you do etc may break off as usually plugs dont like to come out of moulds that easily (first time)..
Most moulds are waxed instead of a release agent.. the most common type of release agent is PVA and usually a few coats of wax are put on beforehand..
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I assume you also already know you cannot have any inverse curves or corners etc in a one piece mould or you will have bucklies getting the panel out without damaging one or the other. That's when you ahevt o start getting involved with 2 piece bolt together moulds.
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Thats exactly what i wrote before...! My previous post was really short because i wrote a massivly detailed one and i.e crashed 
Gelocoat is not only used to for the look... fibreglass in itself if extremley porus and is you sand it back (even if you dont) and you try to paint it, the pinholes would be an absolute nightmare.... thats why you need the gelcoat as well..
^,^ Neko ^,^
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Mon, 21 March 2005 00:02
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The recumbant looks great, a mate of mine has one and they are surprisingly quick. The seats cop a heap of load in them too as you are using them to push against.
Parcel tray: you could tack down some fabric, then fill with expanding foam and massage to suit. Easy and lightweight. Awefull stuff to clean up afther though.
Coremat is another type of core, I think it is similar to the vinicore that I mentioned earlier, but I have never personally used it, so I can't really comment.
Epoxy resin can be found at most hardware stores, even surfboard shops in board repair kits if your desperate.
Taking an inner mould would work but it is another mould and being the inner surface will require a lot more work to protect the hinge and latch points from filling with resin.
Wax is good, I would wax it say 3 times then give it a coat of release agent before layup. You definitly don'twant to lay up on a dry bonnet/mould.
As fester said, it is a good idea to mould in some hard points., particularly if you want to screw into them as per the existing bonnet hinge/latch points.
MFX_Neko_86 comment regarding the pin holes, we used a wash prime (raged over then sanded) over the carbon aircraft that I was working on followed by a spray/high fill primer then sanded again and never had a problem with the finish.
If you are concerned about people sitting on the edges, put another ply in that area.
Kevlar gives good impact resistance, thats why they use it in bullet proof vests, but I wouldn't use it for it's strength. If you were doing an area that is likely to get hit by stones, then it is probably worth considering an outer ply of kevlar, but you are throwing away your money making a bonnet out of it.
Does the sprinter have springs on the bonnet? if it does, then you would need some carefull work around that area to stop it from falling apart.
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Location:
Liverpool, Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Wed, 23 March 2005 04:21
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| Quote: |
MFX_Neko_86 comment regarding the pin holes, we used a wash prime (raged over then sanded) over the carbon aircraft that I was working on followed by a spray/high fill primer then sanded again and never had a problem with the finish.
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Ahh carbon i can understand .. but i meant just raw fibreglass... i mean if it was straight out of the mould there may only be a few pinbholes, but when it comes to rubbing it back, then you have tenfold of the problems...
Coremat hmm.. i have some in the garage but i cant really describe it.. its just white coremat with holes all through it... just good for strength and keeping things non warped.. however if you want any flexability not a good idea....
So, any progress Sam?
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Wed, 23 March 2005 06:59
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no no progress, I apreciate all the info and I will carefully go through it a few times but it will be a long time before I get to use it. Right now my disk brake rear end is giving me greif, see my worklog (in signiture) for what I mean, then theres my ever changing suspension, my 20V engine, etc.. you get the idea. Right now I am just getting information so I can make an educated choice when I need to. I think I will try a few glass/foam/glass samples though in the meantime.
Gold28: thanks my trike is an absolute blast to ride, it comes into its own under slippery off camber conditions or just slippery in general. Riding through long watery mud patches is no problem when you dont have to balance! Anyhow the seat on this is undoubtily a bit crude but it does work well, I initually had too much flex on the bottom but I sanded it back and put some more layers on. Your right about the stress, this thing has to cop heaps, even though I am small guy I used to be able to leg press 300 pounds with one leg so it doesn't get much mercy. Also what did you mean by asking if sprinters had springs in the bonnet? do you mean like how some cars push springs against the bonnet to keep tension when their down?
fester: whats the advantage over the unusual talcum power mix over using paster? I will try it out for sure, it sounds too bizarre for me to not be interested in whats it like.
also whats the advantage of using epoxy over resin when it comes to fiberglass? is any epoxy ok?
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Thu, 24 March 2005 00:21
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Some older cars had sprung hinges to hold up the bonnet instead of a stand or gas struts. I would have thought the sprinter has a stand though.
The talc is used as a filler. it basically makes the resin lighter so you can use it as a filler. Industry uses micro-balloons (tiny hollow glass balls) that feels like talc but is a little lighter again. The talc works well though. Don't use it for your layup, only as a filler.
Epoxy resin is the most common type of resin and can be a little stronger than some of the ester type resins. Although the esters are often custom mixed with modifiers to enhance certain properties, such as heat resistance, brittleness, strength etc. I am not sure if the epoxy type resins can be modified as easily. Having said that, I am only an Engineer that has used the stuff, A specialty chemist would be able to tell you more.
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Location:
Liverpool, Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: where to get Cro-Mo pipe + Carbon and use of carbon
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Thu, 24 March 2005 11:42
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Resin/talc mixes are quite commonly used in the fibreglass industry as fillers...
Using the talc you can make the filler as thick as you want... also its common to throw a handful of chopped roven into the mix to give it the fibre strength... chopping up fibres also canwork, but is a pain...
Although when you use fillers such as these you have to make it when you make your mix to fibreglass and they usually can be trimmed togther... once it goes hard, when you go to fibreglass on top of it its not flexible and can cause bubbles... whereas when its wet its soft its just adapts and fills all shapes and can change shape....
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