| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Sun, 03 April 2005 10:38
|
 |
just wondering what others opinions are on the design of a w2a core. i never really looked into my st205 core, so i cant remember how it was made.
after doing a bit of googling i seen some cores that had the water and charge air share the same core, just with different passages. this type of core is out of my financial league.
what i want to do for a upcoming turbo project is make my own w2a core by either wrapping a a2a i/c core in a aluminium case so the a2a core is submerged in the coolant, or....
use a aluminium heater core (already have one from the insides of another cars under dash heater set-up) and then build a aluminium casing around it so the charge air passes through the core that has the coolant in it.
which do you think would yeild the best results? or is it something that you think i would just have to try?
thank's.
|
|
|
Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Sun, 03 April 2005 10:55
|
|
The ST205 uses the second method you've mentioned with a core holding water inside an enclosure that the air flows through.
I'd suggest enclosing a normal air to air IC in a water bath. At least in that situation you know the air is flowing through passages designed to pull as much heat out of the air as possible.
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Sun, 03 April 2005 11:30
|
|
yup the celica cores have the air in a jacket around the water. as far as a DIY number id wrap the a/a core and run water in a jacket around that. doing a dodge up job i couldnt see you getting good enough transfer from the heater cores taking enough of the heat. there are a lot of people having done a w/a as a jacket over an a/a and they seem to work ok... is this for your car or another ? i was of the belief that the 205 core was pretty much top shelf for your sort of application.
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Sun, 03 April 2005 12:08
|
|
haha.. the st205 one stays in the feral, this is for the feroza turbo project. 
the a2a core i got from WA is to big for the feroza. so i've opted to do a w2a set-up for it, which will be better for slower moving high reving 4wding i do in it when i go to the beach.
well, it looks like i'll wrap a a2a core then. 
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Sun, 03 April 2005 22:26
|
|
dont wrap an a/a core, you want the greater surface area to be in contact with the air, as water has a higher specific heat capacity.
use a conventional a/a core, but run water where the charge air used to go, then enclose the fins and run water through there. might take some thought to work out how to optimise the water flow, but you will get a better result.
|
|
|
Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 04:49
|
|
| shinybluesteel wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 08:26 |
dont wrap an a/a core, you want the greater surface area to be in contact with the air, as water has a higher specific heat capacity.
use a conventional a/a core, but run water where the charge air used to go, then enclose the fins and run water through there. might take some thought to work out how to optimise the water flow, but you will get a better result.
|
Your idea contradicts itself. Yes you want the greatest amount of contact between the air and the cooler surface. In the method you describe however there will be around 60mm of air travel in contact with the cooler, this is the thickness of the cooler. If you encase the cooler in water and flow air through the normal air passages however you will have the air in contact with the cooler for the entire length of the tubes rather than the width.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 06:03
|
|
I said surface area, not length. the surface area (area the air can contact) of an A/A cooler will always be greater on the outside (cooling air) than the inside (charge side)
the other advantage of the setup i describe is lower pressure restriction.
i will make one correction, if you construct it as per my suggesttion, then running the water lines is far simpler.
This is how corky bell suggests to construct an A/A intercooler in maximum boost, and to me at least it makes a lot of sense.
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 06:07
|
|
|
ill get erin onto this thread for you tonight, she'll sort it out no probs... she kinda knows her heat trasnfer stuff... i would suspec you will get best results from running the charge sair as normal with a water jacket around it.. if for no reason other then better flow characteristics though the core then trying to force air though the core.. remember total heat transfer capability is not the only concern... the ability for the core to flow the air with minimum restriction also is of concern....
|
|
|
Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 11:54
|
|
hrmm.. so much food for thought, keep it coming guy's (and Erin if she chimes in). 
this is the heater core i was going to use to run the coolant through. it measures 220mm x 235mm and 90mm thick. (a bit smaller than my st205 one but thicker.
i was going to make a wedge shaped can around it from aluminium that the charge air would enter from the top through the core and expel from the bottom. dunno why i thought wedge shape. 
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 11:59
|
|
|
actuallyl given the thickness of the core and the way you are looking at building that it may work pretty well.. ill get erin into it. she is cooking tea atm. im *studying*
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 12:06
|
|
feral: i've seen pics of a RX7 A-to-A cooler (one of the top-mount inter-heaters you might find on a stock FC rotary) encased in an alloy jacket with a small radiator cap in the top and two lines running off to a condensor/pump.
It was in an old FF, was cooling a 13B turbo (what else ) and used a small water pump to push teh coolant out to a condenso. For drags, they piped the coolant thru an dry-ice tank for better cooling.
Nowadays, you'd get the pump & condensor out of a GT4 or similar.
doing this means you start out with a cooler that has most of the airflow issues sorted out and you can stay focussed on heat removal.
I think your wedge design would see very different air flows and speeds the further you got from the inlet/outlets.
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
April 2004
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 12:42
|
|
Sorry feral, i'll have a crack at this tomorrow- i have just fixed intercooler problems on another topic ( in another forum) and my brain is fried. That and assignments to get done 
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 13:15
|
|
|
haha.. is cool Erin, i am in no hurry. need to save some $$$ after i spent more on my roadtrip than i intended before i can buy some materials to do the project.
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 13:29
|
|
| thechuckster wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 22:06 |
Nowadays, you'd get the pump & condensor out of a GT4 or similar.
doing this means you start out with a cooler that has most of the airflow issues sorted out and you can stay focussed on heat removal.
I think your wedge design would see very different air flows and speeds the further you got from the inlet/outlets.
|
ahh.. i like makeing stuff
i deffinatly cant afford another gt4 w2a core. the wedge is just an example, i could make it more square over the inner core. any shape really. i just thought the wedge would force the air more evenly over the inner core. i seen how a2a cores have that kind of design end tanks. but i am no air flow geek. 
the heat exchanger would be made from an aluminium radiator i have, just have to cut it to size and make end tanks. pump would probably be a davies Craig EBP (like what i have in the feral) or a Bosch unit.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 16:49
|
|
i only meant getting the rad for getting rid of heat and pump from the GT4 not the actual W2A cooler
i reckon any half-decent A2A with solid end tanks then box the sucker up to wrap it (and the end tanks) in fluid - would be the go
i was going to suggest the ARE web site for end tank design
<http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tanks.htm>
and this on W2A design:
<http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/airwaterinter.htm>
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 20:55
|
|
thanks for the links chuckster , i been checking out the ARE site since i got back from my trip. some good info on there.
i actually met the guy that runs it at a car show couple years ago, i chatted to him when i was putting the st205 w2a into the feral.
the set-up i am looking at doing on the feroza will be useing a small turbo (trying to find something smaller than my spare T25) and will only be pushing about 5psi max on the 9.5:1 c/r engine. the turbo conversion is just to give it a little more GO to push the big tryes i have on it, i'm not after a performance 4wd.
build another trusty log type manifold etc. and hopeing to find a map sensor that reads boost through work that will replace the one it already has, put on a rising rate fuel pressure reg and see if it runs.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Mon, 04 April 2005 22:33
|
|
maybe the stock turbo from an old AB cordia might be the go? they're a 1.8 litre that rans pretty low boost.
the one in my garage at the moment suggests they need a lot of engine rpm to get significant boost.
|
|
|
Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Tue, 05 April 2005 04:30
|
|
this is my w2a setup on my starlet,
run the air through the core as normal and then pump water around the outside.
get a good radiator, if not your system wont work well at all
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Tue, 05 April 2005 10:47
|
|
them clear lines look trick showing the coolant 10sec_rx7.
do you have the coolant running from the bottom to the top? hot water rises right? little hard to see, but what capacity water tank doobie do you have on that? looks like the bit you have on the top is raised off the a2a core in those pics only a little, is it the same top and bottom?
for the heat exchange i will be useing a section of a aluminium VN commodore radiator (as i mentioned above) i scored from one of the mechanics that deal through my work for nothing. there's enough of it to make a new heat exchanger for the feral's w2a set-up as well as one for the feroza.
do you know what the ex and comp A/R's are on the cordia one chuckster? my T25 has a ex of .49 and comp of .48. i was looking at something a bit smaller, the engine is a 1.6 sohc.
am looking for early spool and only really need it up to about 4500rpm. anyone know what size the T2 is of a nissan exa?
thanks for the input everyone, keep it coming.
|
|
|
Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Tue, 05 April 2005 12:02
|
|
the coolent runs from the top to the bottom couldnt keep a prime on the pump doing it the other way,
the whole system holds 10L of water, the cooler itself holds around 5L
use a wrx turbo, they have no lag on a 1.3L! we put one on a 4age and it was awesome
Dale
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Tue, 05 April 2005 13:29
|
|
| feral4mr2 wrote on Tue, 05 April 2005 20:47 |
do you know what the ex and comp A/R's are on the cordia one chuckster? my T25 has a ex of .49 and comp of .48. i was looking at something a bit smaller, the engine is a 1.6 sohc.
|
In true mitsu fashion - no useful information is stamped on the turbo - or at least visible when attached to the engine. The unit is a TC06-11 .
From memory, the car gets on reasonable boost from about 2500/2750rpm.
cheers, charles.
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Tue, 05 April 2005 21:28
|
|
hrmmm.. might be a little bigger than i want, would like an earlier spool than that. had a customer that comes into my work mention the turbo off the subaru GT Forester, he rekons they are really small. might have to check them out.
now for my i/c. i will be getting my old aw11 4agze a2a core sent back to me soon, it would probably be easier for me to make a can around it to flow coolant past/through its fins than make a complete unit around a coolant core (though i would still like to try this).
spose i better get some weld els in my next pay and start making a log manifold, as once i made that then i know i will have to get me a turbo and then i'll wanna put it on.
|
|
|
Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Sat, 09 April 2005 23:23
|
|
here are some pics of a new water to air we made for a starlet,
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: DIY w2a intercooler core design
|
Sun, 10 April 2005 06:30
|
|
mmm.. nice. so what you have there is a core that has the coolant running through it and then a sealed caseing around it for the charge air to pass through the core, like the st205 one? (thats what it looks like to me in my beer infested state ).
for ease of me to make one where i use a a2a core and then pass coolant though it with a sealed caseing i cannot see any reason why i cant build myself a fibreglass tank around a a2a core. like all it has to do is hold the coolant as it's pumped though the i/c core. for me not being able to weld aluminium and being on a very tight budget it would make it very easy, and i like useing my fibreglass.
i have a old aw11 4agze a2a core, but it's a little big for what i want really. might have to see if i can score a later 4agze top mount i/c on the cheap.
hopefully i'll get my weld-els this friday and be able to start whacking up my turbo manifold for it.
|
|
|
